What would make you choose one airfield/flyingschool over another?
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What would make you choose one airfield/flyingschool over another?
We've been having a bit of a row between the instructors and management at a flying school I teach at. We the instructors are fed up with niggly little problems on a/c and feel that the punters are getting a bit of a raw deal sometimes.
I'm interested to know whether things like unserviceabilities, frequent instructor changes etc. are acceptable? I don't think they are but I come from a different view point.
What are the things people look for when choosing a club or airfield to fly from and what would make you stay or look for pastures new? Price, pass rates, a/c, facilities, competition etc. Is price the be all and end all? Would you pay more for nice new shiny machines?
It would be nice to see some views of the people who actually pay our wages!
I'm interested to know whether things like unserviceabilities, frequent instructor changes etc. are acceptable? I don't think they are but I come from a different view point.
What are the things people look for when choosing a club or airfield to fly from and what would make you stay or look for pastures new? Price, pass rates, a/c, facilities, competition etc. Is price the be all and end all? Would you pay more for nice new shiny machines?
It would be nice to see some views of the people who actually pay our wages!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I think everyone has a different view on this, and the answer is that it depends who you are trying to target.
The airfield I fly from is not the cheapest around. I did my PPL training there because I liked the feel of the place, I liked the instructors I met, they are more of a club than a school, with renting, fly-outs, seminars and so on regularly organised for PPL-holders, and the PA28s they taught in were more comfortable than C152s other schools taught in. I paid a premium for this, and I didn't mind paying a premium.
But that's just my view - others would far rather learn in a knackered C152, at a school where both of the instructors fly mainly for fun on their days off from their regular jobs, because it's the only way they can afford to fit flying in with the rest of their life.
Right now, the renting which I do is mainly for IMC flying. I hire nearly-new C172s, and I pay (I think) a lot of money for them. For that money, I get a fully working panel, suitable for airways flying if I was appropriately qualified, including GPS and auto-pilot. A PPL student would, quite frankly, be wasting his money flying these aircraft - he would be far better off in the club's PA28s, which are much older and have bits of avionics which he will never use anyway which don't work. That, I think, is reflected in the fact that the C172s have fairly low usage compared to the PA28s.
I know that "it depends" wasn't the answer you wanted, but it's my answer anyway!
FFF
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The airfield I fly from is not the cheapest around. I did my PPL training there because I liked the feel of the place, I liked the instructors I met, they are more of a club than a school, with renting, fly-outs, seminars and so on regularly organised for PPL-holders, and the PA28s they taught in were more comfortable than C152s other schools taught in. I paid a premium for this, and I didn't mind paying a premium.
But that's just my view - others would far rather learn in a knackered C152, at a school where both of the instructors fly mainly for fun on their days off from their regular jobs, because it's the only way they can afford to fit flying in with the rest of their life.
Right now, the renting which I do is mainly for IMC flying. I hire nearly-new C172s, and I pay (I think) a lot of money for them. For that money, I get a fully working panel, suitable for airways flying if I was appropriately qualified, including GPS and auto-pilot. A PPL student would, quite frankly, be wasting his money flying these aircraft - he would be far better off in the club's PA28s, which are much older and have bits of avionics which he will never use anyway which don't work. That, I think, is reflected in the fact that the C172s have fairly low usage compared to the PA28s.
I know that "it depends" wasn't the answer you wanted, but it's my answer anyway!
FFF
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Hello,
Here it goes:
When i started flying i joined x flying school which i believe is one of the largest in the uk and according to them the best, for the moment i step foot in their facilities i knew i wasnt going to be impressed but still i gave them try and i didn't like it, they treat students like if they were doing "us" a favour by teaching us how to fly ( even though we were the ones paying ) arrogant staff ( not all of them but a big % ). Now their a/c are well maintained and the airfield is in a really nice spot in the country. As for the prices they are expensive, very.
My current flying school, is not as well known as the previous one, but the standards are way superior, the aircraft very well maintained ( although the cessnas are a bit old, as for the pipers no complaints whatsoever ).
Prices are acceptable, the instructors are brilliant and as for me and many other students, we all like the envoirement and we are treated like "part of the family".
I love that de-briefing cup of tea with the instructor after the flight.
The best choice i made
Here it goes:
When i started flying i joined x flying school which i believe is one of the largest in the uk and according to them the best, for the moment i step foot in their facilities i knew i wasnt going to be impressed but still i gave them try and i didn't like it, they treat students like if they were doing "us" a favour by teaching us how to fly ( even though we were the ones paying ) arrogant staff ( not all of them but a big % ). Now their a/c are well maintained and the airfield is in a really nice spot in the country. As for the prices they are expensive, very.
My current flying school, is not as well known as the previous one, but the standards are way superior, the aircraft very well maintained ( although the cessnas are a bit old, as for the pipers no complaints whatsoever ).
Prices are acceptable, the instructors are brilliant and as for me and many other students, we all like the envoirement and we are treated like "part of the family".
I love that de-briefing cup of tea with the instructor after the flight.
The best choice i made
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I think the most important things are quality of instruction and a well-run, friendly and organized school. Instructors should be good, if they aren't then i'm off elsewhere. Aeroplanes going u/s and instructors not being available is part of flying, and it's fine if it isn't every other lesson and you're actually told in advance when it happens - rather than arriving ready to fly to find no aeroplane or an instructor who has b*ggered off to ferry someone to Hebden Bridge International at five minutes notice. If your usual instructor isn't around, then the replacement should know exactly what you did last time and what you've come to do today... without having to ask you 
Cost? Well, obviously we'd all like to fly for a fiver an hour, but provided the prices are similar to the local competition then it isn't a major issue. If you're paying an extra £30/hr for nothing much then it is. Facilities are worth a small premium, but don't matter much. I'm just as happy at a club run from a shed if they get the basics right.
Choice of aeroplane? only really important if you are after something specialist (IFR-equipped, aerobatic, tailwheel, whatever) because when it comes to a PPL or a local bimble there's not really much between a Cessna and a Piper. Might swing it if there's nothing else between two schools, and a new aeroplane is worth paying a bit extra for if it's that or some sh*gged out C150.
Cost? Well, obviously we'd all like to fly for a fiver an hour, but provided the prices are similar to the local competition then it isn't a major issue. If you're paying an extra £30/hr for nothing much then it is. Facilities are worth a small premium, but don't matter much. I'm just as happy at a club run from a shed if they get the basics right.
Choice of aeroplane? only really important if you are after something specialist (IFR-equipped, aerobatic, tailwheel, whatever) because when it comes to a PPL or a local bimble there's not really much between a Cessna and a Piper. Might swing it if there's nothing else between two schools, and a new aeroplane is worth paying a bit extra for if it's that or some sh*gged out C150.
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FFF, "it depends!" is about right. Everyone has different ideas about what they want from a club and I woud like to find out what people use to judge differences between schools and get a bit of a straw poll on what most people are after.
For any a/c owners, what are the big issues about where you base a machine? Location, costs, maintenance available etc. What sort of premium are you prepared to pay for top class facilities. At what point would you feel the airfield was taking the mick?
For any a/c owners, what are the big issues about where you base a machine? Location, costs, maintenance available etc. What sort of premium are you prepared to pay for top class facilities. At what point would you feel the airfield was taking the mick?
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For any a/c owners, what are the big issues about where you base a machine?
At what point would you feel the airfield was taking the mick?
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Say again s l o w l y
The answer will depend hugely on why one is learning to fly. So you've got to look at the profile of the students you are attracting.
What determines the profile is another matter; basically the quality of the customer is determined by the perceived quality of the product or service, which in GA is usually poor, which is why the majority of customers are people with little money and little motivation to fly after they get their PPL.
At my airfield about 75% are doing a PPL as a personal challenge, and a few with a distant airline pilot ambition, and to all those price is very important. Everything else is secondary, which is doubtless why the place is so disorganised: it was pretty routine to find the instructor+plane missing because the plane “went tech” or a trial lesson was given priority over a prebooked student lesson. But nobody complained. It is said we get the politicians we deserve, and we get the flying schools we deserve too.
Speaking for myself, I learnt to fly to go to places. From day 1 it was apparent that the IMC Rating was a must and that few of the available planes would be much good, so I was looking for syndicates etc. I was p****d off with the knackered planes, maintenance, and with some of the instructors too, hour-building time wasters. I know a lot of instructors hate students like me, preferring compliant types who do as they are told and then vanish when they get the PPL, and they often say so here and elsewhere. I bought my own plane as soon as I could. But I know nobody locally who learnt to fly to go to places or fly on business, and obviously not many can buy something, so this isn’t a useful data point either.
So much depends on whether you, as the flying school operator, have the means to change the whole perception of your "product". If not (if you always fly the same knackered old planes) then price will always matter strongly, social scene (number of attractive female students, bar meetings, flyouts) will be next. Nice sociable easy to get on with instructors next (essential for female students). Organisation is nice to have but anyone hanging on for long enough in this environment won’t be that fussy about delays; not to the extent of walking out.
The real question is whether you can get modern planes, have a good catchment area, and are prepared to rock the boat
For owners, it depends on what they have. Anything worth over say 70k is worth putting in a hangar, simply on the basis of annual cost of rotting avionics/etc versus annual hangarage. Landing fees of below 15 quid are fine unless again you are flying something low cost.
The answer will depend hugely on why one is learning to fly. So you've got to look at the profile of the students you are attracting.
What determines the profile is another matter; basically the quality of the customer is determined by the perceived quality of the product or service, which in GA is usually poor, which is why the majority of customers are people with little money and little motivation to fly after they get their PPL.
At my airfield about 75% are doing a PPL as a personal challenge, and a few with a distant airline pilot ambition, and to all those price is very important. Everything else is secondary, which is doubtless why the place is so disorganised: it was pretty routine to find the instructor+plane missing because the plane “went tech” or a trial lesson was given priority over a prebooked student lesson. But nobody complained. It is said we get the politicians we deserve, and we get the flying schools we deserve too.
Speaking for myself, I learnt to fly to go to places. From day 1 it was apparent that the IMC Rating was a must and that few of the available planes would be much good, so I was looking for syndicates etc. I was p****d off with the knackered planes, maintenance, and with some of the instructors too, hour-building time wasters. I know a lot of instructors hate students like me, preferring compliant types who do as they are told and then vanish when they get the PPL, and they often say so here and elsewhere. I bought my own plane as soon as I could. But I know nobody locally who learnt to fly to go to places or fly on business, and obviously not many can buy something, so this isn’t a useful data point either.
So much depends on whether you, as the flying school operator, have the means to change the whole perception of your "product". If not (if you always fly the same knackered old planes) then price will always matter strongly, social scene (number of attractive female students, bar meetings, flyouts) will be next. Nice sociable easy to get on with instructors next (essential for female students). Organisation is nice to have but anyone hanging on for long enough in this environment won’t be that fussy about delays; not to the extent of walking out.
The real question is whether you can get modern planes, have a good catchment area, and are prepared to rock the boat
For owners, it depends on what they have. Anything worth over say 70k is worth putting in a hangar, simply on the basis of annual cost of rotting avionics/etc versus annual hangarage. Landing fees of below 15 quid are fine unless again you are flying something low cost.
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S A S, I think as has been said “it all depends” is the correct response. Like so much in aviation you get what you pay for. I suspect a good number of people will go on price and accept the hassle of u/s a/c etc etc as the reason they are paying a lower price than elsewhere.
From my own experience however I think there is more to it, and I agree with your sentiment that shabby aircraft which may or may not be serviceable, lack of available good instructors, or instructors who have no idea what happened in the last lesson are unacceptable at any price. The fact that your boss clearly thinks it is OK, is symptomatic of what makes the PPL market in many places the refuge of crappy little one man bands running knackered old aircraft on a shoe string, struggling to keep an aged couple of planes airborne with the minimum of cost.
It is perfectly possible to run a fleet of quality aircraft, with minimal unplanned downtime (everything will be out of the air at some point even if it’s only for checks) where all the knobs and dials work, and where the aircraft are clean tidy and cared for.
It is also possible to have staff that are pleasant, well mannered interested and dedicated to the job they are paid to do. All this adds up to a feeling as a customer, that you are dealing with a proper business, run on professional and commercial lines that is in control of itself, and its offerings to its customers. Too many school are, and give the impression that they are, nothing more than a dumping ground for wannabe airline drivers, owned by ex or wannabe jet drivers with little or no business acumen.
First impressions count, if it looks like a heap of ****, it probably is. Always buy up to quality and not down to price, that was the entire industry will benefit.
From my own experience however I think there is more to it, and I agree with your sentiment that shabby aircraft which may or may not be serviceable, lack of available good instructors, or instructors who have no idea what happened in the last lesson are unacceptable at any price. The fact that your boss clearly thinks it is OK, is symptomatic of what makes the PPL market in many places the refuge of crappy little one man bands running knackered old aircraft on a shoe string, struggling to keep an aged couple of planes airborne with the minimum of cost.
It is perfectly possible to run a fleet of quality aircraft, with minimal unplanned downtime (everything will be out of the air at some point even if it’s only for checks) where all the knobs and dials work, and where the aircraft are clean tidy and cared for.
It is also possible to have staff that are pleasant, well mannered interested and dedicated to the job they are paid to do. All this adds up to a feeling as a customer, that you are dealing with a proper business, run on professional and commercial lines that is in control of itself, and its offerings to its customers. Too many school are, and give the impression that they are, nothing more than a dumping ground for wannabe airline drivers, owned by ex or wannabe jet drivers with little or no business acumen.
First impressions count, if it looks like a heap of ****, it probably is. Always buy up to quality and not down to price, that was the entire industry will benefit.
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IO I totally agree with what you say.
It is very frustrating when you a business that seems to have all the right ingredients, Catchment area, only school on the field, tarmac strip, maintenance, hangarage, close to controlled airspace, major transport links nearby, lots of land available for any expansion, Large and loyal membership base, actually in profit!, some new machines, dedicated and experienced instructing staff, warm and friendly atmosphere etc.etc. and yet seems to lurch from problem to problem due to the inability and lack of will of the owner to spend just a small bit of money on keeping the facilities and a/c in top notch condition but allow it all to deteriorate.
There is a chronic lack of ground staff and those that there are, are club members who mean well, but do it part time and don't really understand the operational side of the business.
I was in a position to maybe take over from the current management, but somebody else offered more but subsequently turned out to be a 'Walter Mitty' type so that deal has fallen by the wayside. I'm not really interested in going through the whole rigmarole again, but I wonder if at least my thinking and that of the rest of the instructors is indeed correct.
It is very frustrating when you a business that seems to have all the right ingredients, Catchment area, only school on the field, tarmac strip, maintenance, hangarage, close to controlled airspace, major transport links nearby, lots of land available for any expansion, Large and loyal membership base, actually in profit!, some new machines, dedicated and experienced instructing staff, warm and friendly atmosphere etc.etc. and yet seems to lurch from problem to problem due to the inability and lack of will of the owner to spend just a small bit of money on keeping the facilities and a/c in top notch condition but allow it all to deteriorate.
There is a chronic lack of ground staff and those that there are, are club members who mean well, but do it part time and don't really understand the operational side of the business.
I was in a position to maybe take over from the current management, but somebody else offered more but subsequently turned out to be a 'Walter Mitty' type so that deal has fallen by the wayside. I'm not really interested in going through the whole rigmarole again, but I wonder if at least my thinking and that of the rest of the instructors is indeed correct.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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In addition to everything that's been said so far, it's probably also worth pointing out that PPRuNe is probably not a representative sample of your students.
Unfortunately, it is true that many students fly because it seems like a fun thing to do, but give up when they realise that it's something which requires a bit of dedication. For aviation as a whole, that's sad - but for a flying school, these students must represent a large chunk of income. I doubt whether you'll find many of this type of person on PPRuNe, though - a whole section of your customer base who you are not sampling!
FFF
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Unfortunately, it is true that many students fly because it seems like a fun thing to do, but give up when they realise that it's something which requires a bit of dedication. For aviation as a whole, that's sad - but for a flying school, these students must represent a large chunk of income. I doubt whether you'll find many of this type of person on PPRuNe, though - a whole section of your customer base who you are not sampling!
FFF
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Good point!! PPrune may not be totally representative, but it hopefully may give some good opposing views.
Trial lessons actually make up a large part of our business, but it really is the regular students and PPL's who are the absolute core. Most people who start will usually finish, obviously there are a few who will do 10hrs and then quit, but these are minimal when compared to the twice a week or more regulars.
PPrune may not be totally representative, but it hopefully may give some good opposing views. Trial lessons actually make up a large part of our business, but it really is the regular students and PPL's who are the absolute core. Most people who start will usually finish, obviously there are a few who will do 10hrs and then quit, but these are minimal when compared to the twice a week or more regulars.
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For owners, it depends on what they have. Anything worth over say 70k is worth putting in a hangar, simply on the basis of annual cost of rotting avionics/etc versus annual hangarage. Landing fees of below 15 quid are fine unless again you are flying something low cost.
It is early days for the group I am in, but looking at the numbers so far hangarage and landing fees make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of my hourly rate. I'd jump at something that reduces that...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Hangarage and landing fees make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of my hourly rate. I'd jump at something that reduces that
FFF
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Say again s l o w l y
As FFF says, this (or any other) online forum is not going to have a representative population of your prospective customers. But it's not a bad place to get feedback on what to do.
I have absolutely no ambition to start a flying school (I have a business which together with flying keeps me busy enough) but I have discussed the idea with enough MBAs over the years It comes up as often as whether a PPL could land a 747 if he had to...
I believe that the way, and the ONLY way, to make it work is to go for quality customers. There are loads about, in their 20s 30s 40s, not yet married, on 40k-70k p.a. Presently few of these are seen anywhere near airfields; the sight of a washing machine with wings strapped on top (a Cessna, even a brand new one) is enough for them.
This is why you will fail to beat the spamcan merchants even if you buy a fleet of brand new C172s (some 140k a time). I know this because I've seen it done. If Cessna/Piper were in the UK they would have gone the way of BSA, Norton, Enfield, Vincent etc, and it's no use pretending that just because Americans still buy them (just about) they are acceptable.
So how do you get these people in? Modern planes (not Cessnas or Pipers, DA40s will do nicely though) and nice advertising in the local press, and some national magazines. Not in the free local rags, and not in aviation mags either. Teach GPS almost from the start (along the mandatory PPL stuff of course) so people can see early on they WILL be able to fly without getting lost. Stress the modern planes and the nice environment, GPS, etc - this will hugely upset all other schools around which is why even people who spent six figs on new planes are afraid of advertising them using direct comparisons with the "national average", but if you are the only show for miles, you can do it.
Have facilities for post-PPL flyers. Very few schools have this - they want you to either spend money on more ratings (and frankly most don't have planes in which you can teach the IMCR never mind fly them real IFR) or to go away. But these people keep the students motivated, especially if they are in a syndicate in which shares are available.
There are a few other things but that's the essence.
I see you have another objective which is to attract resident owners to your airfield. I can't say more on this because there are so many different types of planes, being operated on very different budgets. I know I would need a hangar, and no potholes.
As FFF says, this (or any other) online forum is not going to have a representative population of your prospective customers. But it's not a bad place to get feedback on what to do.
I have absolutely no ambition to start a flying school (I have a business which together with flying keeps me busy enough) but I have discussed the idea with enough MBAs over the years
It comes up as often as whether a PPL could land a 747 if he had to...I believe that the way, and the ONLY way, to make it work is to go for quality customers. There are loads about, in their 20s 30s 40s, not yet married, on 40k-70k p.a. Presently few of these are seen anywhere near airfields; the sight of a washing machine with wings strapped on top (a Cessna, even a brand new one) is enough for them.
This is why you will fail to beat the spamcan merchants even if you buy a fleet of brand new C172s (some 140k a time). I know this because I've seen it done. If Cessna/Piper were in the UK they would have gone the way of BSA, Norton, Enfield, Vincent etc, and it's no use pretending that just because Americans still buy them (just about) they are acceptable.
So how do you get these people in? Modern planes (not Cessnas or Pipers, DA40s will do nicely though) and nice advertising in the local press, and some national magazines. Not in the free local rags, and not in aviation mags either. Teach GPS almost from the start (along the mandatory PPL stuff of course) so people can see early on they WILL be able to fly without getting lost. Stress the modern planes and the nice environment, GPS, etc - this will hugely upset all other schools around which is why even people who spent six figs on new planes are afraid of advertising them using direct comparisons with the "national average", but if you are the only show for miles, you can do it.
Have facilities for post-PPL flyers. Very few schools have this - they want you to either spend money on more ratings (and frankly most don't have planes in which you can teach the IMCR never mind fly them real IFR) or to go away. But these people keep the students motivated, especially if they are in a syndicate in which shares are available.
There are a few other things but that's the essence.
I see you have another objective which is to attract resident owners to your airfield. I can't say more on this because there are so many different types of planes, being operated on very different budgets. I know I would need a hangar, and no potholes.
Last edited by IO540; 7th Jan 2004 at 01:54.
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IO you've just described my former business plan! Being in the middle of the commuter belt for the city of London there are an awful lot of the type of punter you descibe living in the local area, I've got a friend who works for a large marketing firm and according to his data, the average salary within 10 miles of the field is circa 60k!
Anyone fancy setting up a PPrune flight school run in the way we all would like?
Anyone fancy setting up a PPrune flight school run in the way we all would like?
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I guess that the sort of car you drive shows the sort of aeroplane that you would like to fly.
You could choose to drive round in a 15 year old banger, which keeps breaking down, looks worn out and is generally a bit minging. Similar to many of the c150/152s which are used by flying schools.
However, the people you really wont to attract to flying probably drive bmws/mercs/lexus, and replace them every few years. They wouldnt put up with a car with bits which stopped working, or were uncomfortable, or more importantly, that they didnt want other people to see them driving.
There must be many people who have significant quantities of cash, who would like to learn to fly, but who would like to do something new, and reliable, and good looking, not an ancient c150.
Some of the golf clubs with the longest waiting lists are the most expensive, and with the best facilities. These are the people who could be attracted to flying at a more 'executive' club.
I bet there would be plenty of people in the london area, who would pay a few hundred pounds to hire one of these...
and i know personally, that i would pay probably up to 50% more for a shiney new aircraft like a da40 - tdi over the warrior that i currently hire, however, there is a saying,
If you want to make a million out of aviation, start with 10 million
geoff
You could choose to drive round in a 15 year old banger, which keeps breaking down, looks worn out and is generally a bit minging. Similar to many of the c150/152s which are used by flying schools.
However, the people you really wont to attract to flying probably drive bmws/mercs/lexus, and replace them every few years. They wouldnt put up with a car with bits which stopped working, or were uncomfortable, or more importantly, that they didnt want other people to see them driving.
There must be many people who have significant quantities of cash, who would like to learn to fly, but who would like to do something new, and reliable, and good looking, not an ancient c150.
Some of the golf clubs with the longest waiting lists are the most expensive, and with the best facilities. These are the people who could be attracted to flying at a more 'executive' club.
I bet there would be plenty of people in the london area, who would pay a few hundred pounds to hire one of these...
and i know personally, that i would pay probably up to 50% more for a shiney new aircraft like a da40 - tdi over the warrior that i currently hire, however, there is a saying,
If you want to make a million out of aviation, start with 10 million
geoff
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One of the best things a school can have is its own mechanics. My local school has 5 planes (2 twins, 3 singles) and 2 mechanics that keep them running and working for near 100% uptime.
In contrast, another local school has more (newer) planes, but they suffer from more downtime, cancelled lessons etc.
One school owner I know said they would be 'eaten alive' if they didn't have their own maintenance.
It kinda seems like planes are like old cars, need constant attention to minor stuff to avoid much worse.
In contrast, another local school has more (newer) planes, but they suffer from more downtime, cancelled lessons etc.
One school owner I know said they would be 'eaten alive' if they didn't have their own maintenance.
It kinda seems like planes are like old cars, need constant attention to minor stuff to avoid much worse.
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I am always sceptical about nobody ever making any money from aviation.
It is very difficult and you need a good bit of capital to start with, but barring total disasters there shouldn't be any reason flying schools can't make money.
The reason most do badly in my experience is the total lack of imagination and business acumen that seems to pervade the GA community.(not including biz-jet operators here.)
If you give people what they want (DA40's for example) and you somehow manage to get a somebody else to buy it and allow you to operate it for them (ACMI) then where are the problems? This limits your risk and allows an aircraft owner to offset alot of the costs. A fantastic example of this is Modernair at Fowlmere. Derek has an incredibly loyal membership who don't mind paying a bit extra for new a/c that are well equipped and recent. Throw in a good number of away trips organised by the club (guaranteed income) and you have a recipe for success. The only problem is that the field is unlicenced now and they don't conduct any ab-initio training anymore.
This thread came about when a club member asked me if I would be happy picking up a hire car where the brakes were 'a bit dodgy', half the lights didn't work and it looked like something your grandfather would have driven. When I said "of course not" he replied, well why should I be happy to pay £100/hr for an a/c like that.
I was pretty embarrased and mumbled an apology and I realised that I had given up bashing my head against the brick wall that was the U/S lists since unless a machine was grounded nothing was ever done. So I grounded 3 a/c yesterday purely out of spite as I'm fed up of making excuses to students about lights that don't work, spongy brakes etc. I'm waiting for the explosion for when the boss gets back from his holiday and after reading what has been written here, I now feel totally justified and ready to take what ever gets chucked in my direction.
It is very difficult and you need a good bit of capital to start with, but barring total disasters there shouldn't be any reason flying schools can't make money.
The reason most do badly in my experience is the total lack of imagination and business acumen that seems to pervade the GA community.(not including biz-jet operators here.)
If you give people what they want (DA40's for example) and you somehow manage to get a somebody else to buy it and allow you to operate it for them (ACMI) then where are the problems? This limits your risk and allows an aircraft owner to offset alot of the costs. A fantastic example of this is Modernair at Fowlmere. Derek has an incredibly loyal membership who don't mind paying a bit extra for new a/c that are well equipped and recent. Throw in a good number of away trips organised by the club (guaranteed income) and you have a recipe for success. The only problem is that the field is unlicenced now and they don't conduct any ab-initio training anymore.
This thread came about when a club member asked me if I would be happy picking up a hire car where the brakes were 'a bit dodgy', half the lights didn't work and it looked like something your grandfather would have driven. When I said "of course not" he replied, well why should I be happy to pay £100/hr for an a/c like that.
I was pretty embarrased and mumbled an apology and I realised that I had given up bashing my head against the brick wall that was the U/S lists since unless a machine was grounded nothing was ever done. So I grounded 3 a/c yesterday purely out of spite as I'm fed up of making excuses to students about lights that don't work, spongy brakes etc. I'm waiting for the explosion for when the boss gets back from his holiday and after reading what has been written here, I now feel totally justified and ready to take what ever gets chucked in my direction.
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SAS / NinjaBill
Re that old saying about needing a large fortune to make a small fortune (in aviation); one only has to look at the typical business operator in there to see where it comes from.
Many have no money, no business skills, and are attracted to flying as some sort of romantic pursuit.
Some have money, no business skills, are attracted to flying as some sort of romantic pursuit, and quickly team up with a fast talking cowboy who has the gift of the gab, has no money, and no business skills.
Some have money, have business skills from another trade but seem to forget them the moment they get “involved”.
The reason many businesses last as long as they do is because there is always somebody willing to turn up at 8am and sit by the phone, even if they are not getting paid.
In the right location it can be done. It takes capital, good marketing, good management, well chosen instructors (not from the school next door) who get on with each other, and slick premises. Plus a total lack of Cessnas and Pipers
Having a licensed engineer on the staff would be a huge help with operating costs; I have seen this both with licensed individuals who get much cheaper flying than anyone else, and with licensed owners of multiple identical aircraft who lease them off to schools.
Re that old saying about needing a large fortune to make a small fortune (in aviation); one only has to look at the typical business operator in there to see where it comes from.
Many have no money, no business skills, and are attracted to flying as some sort of romantic pursuit.
Some have money, no business skills, are attracted to flying as some sort of romantic pursuit, and quickly team up with a fast talking cowboy who has the gift of the gab, has no money, and no business skills.
Some have money, have business skills from another trade but seem to forget them the moment they get “involved”.
The reason many businesses last as long as they do is because there is always somebody willing to turn up at 8am and sit by the phone, even if they are not getting paid.
In the right location it can be done. It takes capital, good marketing, good management, well chosen instructors (not from the school next door) who get on with each other, and slick premises. Plus a total lack of Cessnas and Pipers
Having a licensed engineer on the staff would be a huge help with operating costs; I have seen this both with licensed individuals who get much cheaper flying than anyone else, and with licensed owners of multiple identical aircraft who lease them off to schools.