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Join Date: Jun 2002
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I really can't remember the last time that I read such drivel. Come on kids lets all stop throwing hissy fits and start behaving like adults.
The original incident sounds plausible. Low flying fixed wings, civilian and military are a problem. The only way that mid-airs are going to be avoided is by more control being exercised by the CAA and military commanders.
The pilot of the fixed wing needs to be educated in the laws of the land for low flying. The Gazelle pilot needs to be complimented on his diligence in performing a good lookout before transitioning.
Stop all the bickering and back stabbing people and let the authorities sort it out.
The original incident sounds plausible. Low flying fixed wings, civilian and military are a problem. The only way that mid-airs are going to be avoided is by more control being exercised by the CAA and military commanders.
The pilot of the fixed wing needs to be educated in the laws of the land for low flying. The Gazelle pilot needs to be complimented on his diligence in performing a good lookout before transitioning.
Stop all the bickering and back stabbing people and let the authorities sort it out.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Would you have found it so hilarious if the Gazelle had lifted into the fixed wing and both aircraft plummeted into the crowd at the hotel. I fail to see the humour in that, do you?
Forgive me for having no sense of humour when incidents like this happen.
Forgive me for having no sense of humour when incidents like this happen.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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As an ATPL A + H, I read this with interest. I fly Grob Tutors and for the record, they are not cleared down to that height. If it was below 100' it was very illegal. Even if you are operating on the 500' rule and are clear of persons, buildings etc, it is irresponsible to fly at that height. If you are really the pilot of the ac and say things like "lighten up" and "chill out man" you are damaging private aviation more than you would ever ever believe..... ever. Ppruners... PLEASE do not protect d**kheads like this. It could be you they crash in to in the future.
PS. If I enter this drinking contest, how the heck do a ever get anything but a draw?
PS. If I enter this drinking contest, how the heck do a ever get anything but a draw?
Join Date: Dec 1999
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The A/c flew in from the Barrow In Furnace direction, passed over the Swan at roughly 80/100 ft then had to climb to miss the trees at the rivers edge, after the trees, it then came down to around 30/40ft from the lakes surface.
Maybe the fixed wing pilot was scared shi
less at seeing a Gazelle appear from nowhere but doesn't have a PC to vent his fury at the rotary pilot. Or, he just got on with things....Threatening a pilot online, as the original poster seems to do, is not acceptable and I just wonder if he would be so big if he met the F/W pilot in reality?
I agree, if a risk of collision occurred, then zero points to the F/W pilot - he should have looked very closely if he was low flying, and/or made sure the area was suitable first. Impromptu low-flying is a killer..
Sometimes, threads like these remind me of the 'Self-Righteous Brothers' out of the Fast Show! A panel of armchair ‘experts’ possibly made up of plane-spotters, ATC cadets and journalists sitting in judgement on something that they never even saw. Within 20 or so posts, it all descends into a slanging match....
Last July, I nearly had a head-on collision with an Agusta 109 West of Reading. Good VFR, 30k+ vis. In my opinion, the pilot never even saw me, judging by the lack of avoidance action (maybe this was to avoid spilling the G&Ts?). Did I whinge on Prune??? Nah, just got on with things and took it as part of the very real risks of flying in crowded skies.
Ho hum, it's a lovely day, just off to exercise the privilege to fly low legally, completely within the provisions of Rule 5! I'll make sure I look out for any sensitive pilots within a 50nm radius of where I'm going, for fear of appearing as the accused man in a Pprune trial just in case I scare them unintentionally.
Shakes head and wanders off down the aerodrome to get back to reality and have some fun...........takes flak jacket with him just in case..
I was there
I have been following this post with interest. It is certainly the most sensational and alarming post that has been listed in the 781 contributions from Vrfpilotpb.
Filing an airprox is the most sensible thing to do, also collect as much information from the visitors to the Swan that day ; there must be some 200 to choose from.
I am unable to help trace the aircraft mentioned although I was in the right place, at exactly the right time to observe the performance. The helicopter was rotors running in the paddock of the Swan.
We had entered Windermere at Bowness, having descended from overhead Ingleborough at 5000ft to 2000ft. We tracked down the western shoreline before making a left hand turn towards the Swan from the west. I pointed the Hotel out to my Friend as we passed by, and descended further to 1200ft from Witherslack towards Arnside before turning for home.
Apart from the rotors running helicopter NO aircraft were seen by the four active eyeballs in the predominantly white, distinctively cranked wing 90 MPH Jodel.
Filing an airprox is the most sensible thing to do, also collect as much information from the visitors to the Swan that day ; there must be some 200 to choose from.
I am unable to help trace the aircraft mentioned although I was in the right place, at exactly the right time to observe the performance. The helicopter was rotors running in the paddock of the Swan.
We had entered Windermere at Bowness, having descended from overhead Ingleborough at 5000ft to 2000ft. We tracked down the western shoreline before making a left hand turn towards the Swan from the west. I pointed the Hotel out to my Friend as we passed by, and descended further to 1200ft from Witherslack towards Arnside before turning for home.
Apart from the rotors running helicopter NO aircraft were seen by the four active eyeballs in the predominantly white, distinctively cranked wing 90 MPH Jodel.
So close, and yet so far!
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I wonder about the mentality of some of the people on this thread! I am a pilot myeslf, but have on several occasions seen people pratting about overhead Sandbach WAY lower than they should be, and have considered following it up... And no, I'm not a killjoy - but it bugs me that Joe Public might tar all private pilots with the same brush (ie as irrresponible t*****s)
People who flout the rules (whether it be to show off to their mates or whatever) should IMHO be strung up ******** - there are way too many NIMBYs about now, without idiots adding fuel to the fire!
People who flout the rules (whether it be to show off to their mates or whatever) should IMHO be strung up ******** - there are way too many NIMBYs about now, without idiots adding fuel to the fire!
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VFRPilotpb
It's not so much a case of closing ranks, more a case of the old British way of assuming innocence until PROVEN guilty. You came in as judge, jury, and executioner. None of those are formally your roles in this matter.
If there was an alleged Breach of Legislation, then it's for the CAA Enforcement Branch to look in to. They will gather the evidence, and decide whether there was a case to answer. Then it's off to court if there is ... where no doubt Flying Lawyer will run rings around them
. If you were just unhappy at the separation involved, then it's for the UK Airprox Board to look at and judge upon.
We only have your side of the story. It is not an objective view. You were, and maybe still are, angry. Emotions tend to cloud judgement and rational thought. And as many will be aware from various high profile Low Flying infringement court cases, the human recollection of incidents and judgement of distance, etc, is notoriously innaccurate.
The perceived 'ruffling of feathers' has absolutely nothing to do with Fixed Wing vs Helicopter, that's irrelevant since we all share the same airspace and are bound by the same legislation. In my view it's more about the people in this Forum providing some balance to your claims, offering possible explanations for the fixed wing pilots behaviour, and countering some of your claims with alternative thoughts. In short, many of us are playing Devil's Advocate, since that is exactly what you would face in court if there was any prosecution. You shouldn't take it too personally. If the fixed wing pilot was proven to be operating illegally then you would see any support for him evaporate like snow off a wall. But until that is done, then we only have a polarised view from one of the parties involved.
Just as a final aside, you mention it being a turning point for military low flyers ... does that mean if it had been a Tornado or Fat Albert then you would have been happier to have just missed them in a similar situation ??
What I cant understand though is the want and vitriol to protect and close ranks around someone who flew low over that area, which incidently is also the turning point for low level runs of fast trainers and Fat Albert to then fly up the length of Windermere.
If there was an alleged Breach of Legislation, then it's for the CAA Enforcement Branch to look in to. They will gather the evidence, and decide whether there was a case to answer. Then it's off to court if there is ... where no doubt Flying Lawyer will run rings around them
. If you were just unhappy at the separation involved, then it's for the UK Airprox Board to look at and judge upon.We only have your side of the story. It is not an objective view. You were, and maybe still are, angry. Emotions tend to cloud judgement and rational thought. And as many will be aware from various high profile Low Flying infringement court cases, the human recollection of incidents and judgement of distance, etc, is notoriously innaccurate.
The perceived 'ruffling of feathers' has absolutely nothing to do with Fixed Wing vs Helicopter, that's irrelevant since we all share the same airspace and are bound by the same legislation. In my view it's more about the people in this Forum providing some balance to your claims, offering possible explanations for the fixed wing pilots behaviour, and countering some of your claims with alternative thoughts. In short, many of us are playing Devil's Advocate, since that is exactly what you would face in court if there was any prosecution. You shouldn't take it too personally. If the fixed wing pilot was proven to be operating illegally then you would see any support for him evaporate like snow off a wall. But until that is done, then we only have a polarised view from one of the parties involved.
Just as a final aside, you mention it being a turning point for military low flyers ... does that mean if it had been a Tornado or Fat Albert then you would have been happier to have just missed them in a similar situation ??
Join Date: Oct 2000
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PPRUNE Radar has put it in a nutshell.
We all get the tweaky ringpiece, bitter adrenaline mouthtaste, from time to time, when we've had a (perceived) narrow squeak.
I have always subscribed to the ' count to ten' philosophy which stops me running off at the mouth with perhaps inappropriate or exaggerated emotion, till I've had some time to think about it.
If this chap has done something dodgy, then evidence must be presented to prove this was so.
Emotion and bluster is not enough.
If no evidence is produced, there is no case to answer and the alleged perpetrator is not guilty.
And jolly good too I say:
GA has quite enough to contend with, quite apart from PPRUNE posters who want to judge, convict and sentence fellow aviators from a one-sided description of events.
Safe (and un biased) flying.
Cusco
We all get the tweaky ringpiece, bitter adrenaline mouthtaste, from time to time, when we've had a (perceived) narrow squeak.
I have always subscribed to the ' count to ten' philosophy which stops me running off at the mouth with perhaps inappropriate or exaggerated emotion, till I've had some time to think about it.
If this chap has done something dodgy, then evidence must be presented to prove this was so.
Emotion and bluster is not enough.
If no evidence is produced, there is no case to answer and the alleged perpetrator is not guilty.
And jolly good too I say:
GA has quite enough to contend with, quite apart from PPRUNE posters who want to judge, convict and sentence fellow aviators from a one-sided description of events.
Safe (and un biased) flying.
Cusco
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Stop the sh!t slinging and get on out there and fly.
Makes you think though.....
Do I always check above and behind prior to departure (good work VFRpilot)?
Do I always keep a good lookout when flying, especially at lowlevel?
Do I plan a lowlevel flight to the extent it should be?
Oh, and do I know what I am doing flying a small (underpowered?) FW low level in the mountains? (In fact when did I last check the performance charts?)
Sharpen up everyone and lets keep 2004 safe for one and all.
Makes you think though.....
Do I always check above and behind prior to departure (good work VFRpilot)?
Do I always keep a good lookout when flying, especially at lowlevel?
Do I plan a lowlevel flight to the extent it should be?
Oh, and do I know what I am doing flying a small (underpowered?) FW low level in the mountains? (In fact when did I last check the performance charts?)
Sharpen up everyone and lets keep 2004 safe for one and all.
alleged low flying
Lets try to get to the bottom of this ;
'The A/c flew in from the Barrow In Furnace direction, passed over the Swan at roughly 80/100 ft then had to climb to miss the trees at the rivers edge, after the trees, it then came down to around 30/40ft from the lakes surface.'
Where was the helicopter to observe this, did all the occupants see the f/w.? How many visitors to the Swan have been contacted who also saw this infringement?
Lets collect the evidence.
'The A/c flew in from the Barrow In Furnace direction, passed over the Swan at roughly 80/100 ft then had to climb to miss the trees at the rivers edge, after the trees, it then came down to around 30/40ft from the lakes surface.'
Where was the helicopter to observe this, did all the occupants see the f/w.? How many visitors to the Swan have been contacted who also saw this infringement?
Lets collect the evidence.
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Interesting thread
Hello!
I've read this thread with interest.
A bit surprised over some attitudes some people have. I don't know anything about this particular situation. But I just feel the need to say.
Don't forget that we are professionals. Some more or less. But even with a PPL you should try to be a professional. Pilots don't just jump on eatchater and start a fight, or yells at eatchater. And by that my reason is not to defend anyone. Just would like to say that if someone does something wrong or that you think is wrong, then of course you should do something about it.
But do it the right way!!
Speak to him friendly until you know what happened. Then you can file a report.
Pilots should not just jump on eatchater, we have more education and should use our brain more than just a bunch of schoolkids.
/Goflying
I've read this thread with interest.
A bit surprised over some attitudes some people have. I don't know anything about this particular situation. But I just feel the need to say.
Don't forget that we are professionals. Some more or less. But even with a PPL you should try to be a professional. Pilots don't just jump on eatchater and start a fight, or yells at eatchater. And by that my reason is not to defend anyone. Just would like to say that if someone does something wrong or that you think is wrong, then of course you should do something about it.
But do it the right way!!
Speak to him friendly until you know what happened. Then you can file a report.
Pilots should not just jump on eatchater, we have more education and should use our brain more than just a bunch of schoolkids.
/Goflying
