TBM 700 accidents
Thread Starter
TBM 700 accidents
BRL has requested that the original thread I started yesterday become a condolences thread, hence I'll start a new one.
9 TBM 700 accidents in the NTSB database, including the one at Moulins. We've had two recently in the UK, at Dundee and now at Oxford. I've ridden in the TBM 700 and consider it to be a fine aeroplane, but I'm struck by some of the similarities:
1998 Truckee CA Loss of control in a night circling approach. Pilot inadvertently enters a 70-80 deg left bank. Recovers attitude but cannot avoid ground impact.
1998 Spearfish SD Loss of control on approach. "As the airplane came out of the cloud, it turned left in about a 30-degree turn. The angle of bank increased to about 70 to 80 degrees, the tail of the airplane came up, and the airplane impacted the ground nose first."
1999 Winchester VA was a gear up, no one badly hurt.
2000 Harrisburg IL Loss of control on approach. "I added power to stop the descent, however, there was a significant delay (much longer than normal) in the response of the engine. The engine finally spooled and at that moment a gust lifted the right wing and the left wing dropped, I corrected but there was not enough altitude and the left wing impacted the ground."
2001 Englewood, CO Loss of control after departure in low IMC. "The first radar contact was at 0718:38.69, when the airplane was in a climbing left turn at an encoded altitude of 5,800 feet and at a ground speed of 109 knots. The data showed the airplane achieving a maximum encoded altitude of 7,000 feet before entering a descending left turn. The last recorded contact was at 0719:38.62 when the airplane was at 6,700 feet."
2002 Moulins, France Loss of control on short final "Peu avant d'effectuer l'arrondi, il estime qu'il va "être un peu court", il effectue une action à cabrer et augmente légèrement de puissance. Jugeant que l'assiette à cabrer devient trop importante il remet les gaz. L'avion s'incline à gauche. Le saumon d'aile gauche touche la raquette du seuil de piste."
2003 Aspen CO Loss of control on approach "The approach was normal until approximately 100 feet above the runway at which time the airplane encountered a turbulence condition causing rapid-roll tendencies right and left. As the student began his landing flare at about 15 feet above the runway, the left wing dropped rapidly combined with a sudden high sink rate."
2003 Leesburg VA (Prelim) Loss of control on approach. A witness reports: "The airplane then made a sharp left bank and started to turn toward the north. It continued to increase the left bank, when the nose dropped down into the trees, and the witness lost sight of it." Another reportsS: "When he looked up, he saw it exiting the clouds, about four stories above the ground, in a level attitude, headed east. The airplane then made a sharp left bank and started to turn towards the north. The nose of the airplane "was being pulled up" while in the turn. It then dropped, and pointed down toward the ground. "
2003 Mobile AL (Prelim) Ground impact after engine shutdown. No details in the report yet.
Then we have 2003 Dundee, in which the aircraft suffers a dramatic left wing drop on final and leaves the left side of the runway (maybe WCollins can offer a comment).
Now 2003 Oxford, A witness said: "The aircraft appeared to be making a fairly normal approach at about 200-300 yards before the end of the runway. It made a level left turn and rolled to the left and then went down, almost spiralling perpendicularly."
Am I clutching at straws or is the word "left" coming up with more regularity than is reasonable?
9 TBM 700 accidents in the NTSB database, including the one at Moulins. We've had two recently in the UK, at Dundee and now at Oxford. I've ridden in the TBM 700 and consider it to be a fine aeroplane, but I'm struck by some of the similarities:
1998 Truckee CA Loss of control in a night circling approach. Pilot inadvertently enters a 70-80 deg left bank. Recovers attitude but cannot avoid ground impact.
1998 Spearfish SD Loss of control on approach. "As the airplane came out of the cloud, it turned left in about a 30-degree turn. The angle of bank increased to about 70 to 80 degrees, the tail of the airplane came up, and the airplane impacted the ground nose first."
1999 Winchester VA was a gear up, no one badly hurt.
2000 Harrisburg IL Loss of control on approach. "I added power to stop the descent, however, there was a significant delay (much longer than normal) in the response of the engine. The engine finally spooled and at that moment a gust lifted the right wing and the left wing dropped, I corrected but there was not enough altitude and the left wing impacted the ground."
2001 Englewood, CO Loss of control after departure in low IMC. "The first radar contact was at 0718:38.69, when the airplane was in a climbing left turn at an encoded altitude of 5,800 feet and at a ground speed of 109 knots. The data showed the airplane achieving a maximum encoded altitude of 7,000 feet before entering a descending left turn. The last recorded contact was at 0719:38.62 when the airplane was at 6,700 feet."
2002 Moulins, France Loss of control on short final "Peu avant d'effectuer l'arrondi, il estime qu'il va "être un peu court", il effectue une action à cabrer et augmente légèrement de puissance. Jugeant que l'assiette à cabrer devient trop importante il remet les gaz. L'avion s'incline à gauche. Le saumon d'aile gauche touche la raquette du seuil de piste."
2003 Aspen CO Loss of control on approach "The approach was normal until approximately 100 feet above the runway at which time the airplane encountered a turbulence condition causing rapid-roll tendencies right and left. As the student began his landing flare at about 15 feet above the runway, the left wing dropped rapidly combined with a sudden high sink rate."
2003 Leesburg VA (Prelim) Loss of control on approach. A witness reports: "The airplane then made a sharp left bank and started to turn toward the north. It continued to increase the left bank, when the nose dropped down into the trees, and the witness lost sight of it." Another reportsS: "When he looked up, he saw it exiting the clouds, about four stories above the ground, in a level attitude, headed east. The airplane then made a sharp left bank and started to turn towards the north. The nose of the airplane "was being pulled up" while in the turn. It then dropped, and pointed down toward the ground. "
2003 Mobile AL (Prelim) Ground impact after engine shutdown. No details in the report yet.
Then we have 2003 Dundee, in which the aircraft suffers a dramatic left wing drop on final and leaves the left side of the runway (maybe WCollins can offer a comment).
Now 2003 Oxford, A witness said: "The aircraft appeared to be making a fairly normal approach at about 200-300 yards before the end of the runway. It made a level left turn and rolled to the left and then went down, almost spiralling perpendicularly."
Am I clutching at straws or is the word "left" coming up with more regularity than is reasonable?
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So the amateur investigator would perhaps conclude that the torque generated by adding a gob of power to the PT6 when the aircraft is slow and perhaps a bit nose high can easily overwhelm the pilot... It would not be a big surprise if that were the case.
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I don't want to say too much, but it is a matter of record that we were in the landing phase, left wing touched the ground, we turned left before hitting the water.
That's another couple of "lefts" for you.
W
That's another couple of "lefts" for you.
W
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Could this be described as Electronic Rubber Necking?
Perhaps if the thread was started after the blinkin' wreck had been cleared away it wouldn't seem so bad.
Sorry chaps, I cant help feeling it's all a bit "bad form" this close to the incident.
Do you know who the couple were visiting for the weekend in Oxford? No, precisely.
Perhaps if the thread was started after the blinkin' wreck had been cleared away it wouldn't seem so bad.
Sorry chaps, I cant help feeling it's all a bit "bad form" this close to the incident.
Do you know who the couple were visiting for the weekend in Oxford? No, precisely.
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Rubbernecking or not...
I think its fair to say that any pilot is keen to review the reasons why an accident might have happened, ASAP, so that they don't follow the same path.
Probably 5 or 10 different ideas come to mind about this crash, so I, for one, run through them quickly and think "would I be able to prevent or handle that scenario".
Any suggestions speculations therefore have some value. Whether the incident is 12hrs or 12 weeks old makes little difference. Reading the report is also interesting.
It is certainly part of TBM training to be aware of the need to apply a lot of right rudder to compensate for Torque when applying a lot of power for example on a go around. Many incidents involving left wing striking ground have been presumed to be caused by such a scenario. Truckee for example.
Probably 5 or 10 different ideas come to mind about this crash, so I, for one, run through them quickly and think "would I be able to prevent or handle that scenario".
Any suggestions speculations therefore have some value. Whether the incident is 12hrs or 12 weeks old makes little difference. Reading the report is also interesting.
It is certainly part of TBM training to be aware of the need to apply a lot of right rudder to compensate for Torque when applying a lot of power for example on a go around. Many incidents involving left wing striking ground have been presumed to be caused by such a scenario. Truckee for example.
Thread Starter
Sorry chaps, I cant help feeling it's all a bit "bad form" this close to the incident.
Do you know who the couple were visiting for the weekend in Oxford? No, precisely.
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Why only commiserate with the families of those who died at Oxford? (On a point of order, Bookworm, there were three of them, not a couple.)
Why not commiserate with the families of those who died of cancer this weekend, or in action in Iraq, or in car crashes (on average there will have been more than 30 of them alone) ?
The answer is, of course, because the deaths of these people mean more to us. There but for the grace...and all that. We are interested in them and their families only because they died in an aircraft crash, not because they died per se.
If it is the aviation-related aspect of their death that touches us, and we think that we can see a pattern that might stop other such deaths, why the moritorium on discussion?
If the worry is that journos get hold of it, should we worry that, unusually, those journos have more, and more accurate, information than they usually do, thanks to Bookworm's research?
W
Why not commiserate with the families of those who died of cancer this weekend, or in action in Iraq, or in car crashes (on average there will have been more than 30 of them alone) ?
The answer is, of course, because the deaths of these people mean more to us. There but for the grace...and all that. We are interested in them and their families only because they died in an aircraft crash, not because they died per se.
If it is the aviation-related aspect of their death that touches us, and we think that we can see a pattern that might stop other such deaths, why the moritorium on discussion?
If the worry is that journos get hold of it, should we worry that, unusually, those journos have more, and more accurate, information than they usually do, thanks to Bookworm's research?
W
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My thread wasn't a flare and I'm glad it wasn't taken as one either. Having read what you have posted I suppose I can see where you are coming from.
In this instance it is constructive and I am probably guilty of jumping to the conclusion that it was another one of those ones like that thread about the "fuel starved Seneca at Shoreham". That thread did get me ranting as it seemed there were so many people with ridiculous theories that perhaps even verged on slanderous. When the guy was axquitted I must admit I smirked quietly.
larrylarmor's points in his first three paragraphs are very true.
I therefore retract my comments! (for the first time ever!)
In this instance it is constructive and I am probably guilty of jumping to the conclusion that it was another one of those ones like that thread about the "fuel starved Seneca at Shoreham". That thread did get me ranting as it seemed there were so many people with ridiculous theories that perhaps even verged on slanderous. When the guy was axquitted I must admit I smirked quietly.
larrylarmor's points in his first three paragraphs are very true.
I therefore retract my comments! (for the first time ever!)
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Without wanting to divert this thread like the original one got diverted...
Am I the only one who finds these threads offering hundreds of 'condolences' somewhat nauseating?
Any untimely death is a tragedy to those who know the victims or those connected with them, and the fact that it is an aircraft accident perhaps makes it a bit too close for comfort to this fraternity. However, why do so many people feel the need to offer 'condolences' to families of people they have never and probably will never know? It is not to make those families feel better, but in some way to make the offerers feel better.
When Princess Diana was killed, there was a massive outpouring of 'national grief' and thousands of eulogies by people who had never met, been helped by, or even seen the lady. I bet many of those were formerly as keen as many others to buy the tabloids which printed long-lens pictures of her trying to get on with her life. They found such snatched indiscretion titillating or fascinating, but suddenly, when she is dead, they join the bandwagon in saying how sorry they are and what a great lady she was.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing genuine grief, but I find it hard to understand why some feel that it is necessary to express their 'condolences' just because it is an aircraft accident. We don't see threads running offering condolences to the families of soldiers killed in Iraq or the latest victim of a road accident.
Why are aircraft accidents different, other than for reasons that they might one day happen to us? If that is the case, then discussion of the possible reasons at an early stage is healthy and has no negative impact upon the official investigation. If, by sharing our experiences, opinions or fears we can make each other a little more careful or aware of the issues and maybe prevent a future accident, then that has to be healthy. It is in no way disrespectful to those who have died. We should try to learn from their deaths, not hide behind sentimentality.
Now ducking behind the parapet...
Am I the only one who finds these threads offering hundreds of 'condolences' somewhat nauseating?
Any untimely death is a tragedy to those who know the victims or those connected with them, and the fact that it is an aircraft accident perhaps makes it a bit too close for comfort to this fraternity. However, why do so many people feel the need to offer 'condolences' to families of people they have never and probably will never know? It is not to make those families feel better, but in some way to make the offerers feel better.
When Princess Diana was killed, there was a massive outpouring of 'national grief' and thousands of eulogies by people who had never met, been helped by, or even seen the lady. I bet many of those were formerly as keen as many others to buy the tabloids which printed long-lens pictures of her trying to get on with her life. They found such snatched indiscretion titillating or fascinating, but suddenly, when she is dead, they join the bandwagon in saying how sorry they are and what a great lady she was.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing genuine grief, but I find it hard to understand why some feel that it is necessary to express their 'condolences' just because it is an aircraft accident. We don't see threads running offering condolences to the families of soldiers killed in Iraq or the latest victim of a road accident.
Why are aircraft accidents different, other than for reasons that they might one day happen to us? If that is the case, then discussion of the possible reasons at an early stage is healthy and has no negative impact upon the official investigation. If, by sharing our experiences, opinions or fears we can make each other a little more careful or aware of the issues and maybe prevent a future accident, then that has to be healthy. It is in no way disrespectful to those who have died. We should try to learn from their deaths, not hide behind sentimentality.
Now ducking behind the parapet...
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Why are aircraft accidents different, other than for reasons that they might one day happen to us? If that is the case, then discussion of the possible reasons at an early stage is healthy and has no negative impact upon the official investigation. If, by sharing our experiences, opinions or fears we can make each other a little more careful or aware of the issues and maybe prevent a future accident, then that has to be healthy. It is in no way disrespectful to those who have died. We should try to learn from their deaths, not hide behind sentimentality.
When the new junior pilot at an RAF 2TAF airbase in the 50's was told by the CO that there was no spare locker for him, he joined the others ouside to watch the local display ace do a rehearsal. He tentpegged in the middle of it, whereupon the JP asked "which was his locker?"
None of the other aviators was shocked. Hard maybe. They also knew it was a much softer school than it had been 10 years earlier.
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I too find the armchair pontificating on TBM safety in this (and the earlier) thread a little nauseating as it is so closely related to yesterdays tragedy.
W Collins following his own involvement in a TBM misshap less than two months ago asked at the time -
"I would consider it a favour if, as ever, there is no speculation as to the cause until the report comes out.
Feeling happy to be alive.
W"
I think it would have been wise and more respectful for him to have followed his own advice on this occasion too (along with a few others). I wholeheartedly support BRL putting the lid on the original thread and think that this one too ought to be kicked into touch.
Mr.W
W Collins following his own involvement in a TBM misshap less than two months ago asked at the time -
"I would consider it a favour if, as ever, there is no speculation as to the cause until the report comes out.
Feeling happy to be alive.
W"
I think it would have been wise and more respectful for him to have followed his own advice on this occasion too (along with a few others). I wholeheartedly support BRL putting the lid on the original thread and think that this one too ought to be kicked into touch.
Mr.W
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I would consider it a favour if, as ever, there is no speculation as to the cause until the report comes out.
I was talking this evening to my mother (who was another pax at Dundee) who had drawn her own conclusions from what she had experienced in our crash and what she had heard on the TV about Oxford, and she was quite adamant that lessons must be learned quickly. She is all too aware what might have happened.
Obviously no-one is going to add strakes to, or ground, or whatever the TBM fleet before the formal AAIB report. But if just one TBM pilot looks at Bookworm's list and, I don't know, adds a greater gust factor, or gets more right rudder in a go-around or whatever, then it can do no harm and maybe a little good.
W
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There is a difference, I suggest, between armchair speculation, and informed discussion. In this case, we have verified information from Bookworm, and direct experience from WCollins. If that leads to some TBM pilots being more aware of potential risks, then that's excellent. Anyone who's against that has a problem.
We'll know a lot more when the AAIB reports on these two events. Meanwhile, I (who know nothing) will refrain from speculation. But I will read avidly the input of people who know.
As to eulogies - it's a topic I'm slightly familiar with: I've probably done more of those "for real" than most folks on here. Without going into the reasons, people need to say something about a tragedy, particularly one that comes close to them or one they feel sympathy towards, or even more, one where they feel guilt. Let them be, if that's what they need.
We'll know a lot more when the AAIB reports on these two events. Meanwhile, I (who know nothing) will refrain from speculation. But I will read avidly the input of people who know.
As to eulogies - it's a topic I'm slightly familiar with: I've probably done more of those "for real" than most folks on here. Without going into the reasons, people need to say something about a tragedy, particularly one that comes close to them or one they feel sympathy towards, or even more, one where they feel guilt. Let them be, if that's what they need.
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I have to agree with Keef, WCollins, Bookworm & others here. Normally I keep quiet during the accident discussion threads as I don't normally have anything to add. However I do read them, and the AAIB reports, as I know I will always have plenty to learn to keep my flying as safe as possible.
I think it IS right that we, as aviators, should learn from each other and as quickly as possible. In fact, our "industry/ hobby/ sport etc" is often looked upon with respect in the way that accidents are fairly investigated by the AAIB with the aim of finding cause (and not blame) so others may learn - I know the medical profession would like to be able to emulate it...
So back to the point, if the discussion enables fellow pilots to be aware of potential issues more quickly (without undue speculation or mud slinging) and maybe prevent further incidents then great. Personally I think condolences can also be valuable, we are all human, share a love for what we done and think "there for the grace of God...". Some people prefer doing one more than the other so BRL has done us a good service by separating the threads and this thread has done well to remain pretty much focused on discussing known facts.
I think it IS right that we, as aviators, should learn from each other and as quickly as possible. In fact, our "industry/ hobby/ sport etc" is often looked upon with respect in the way that accidents are fairly investigated by the AAIB with the aim of finding cause (and not blame) so others may learn - I know the medical profession would like to be able to emulate it...
So back to the point, if the discussion enables fellow pilots to be aware of potential issues more quickly (without undue speculation or mud slinging) and maybe prevent further incidents then great. Personally I think condolences can also be valuable, we are all human, share a love for what we done and think "there for the grace of God...". Some people prefer doing one more than the other so BRL has done us a good service by separating the threads and this thread has done well to remain pretty much focused on discussing known facts.
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IO540
With that suggestion you really are getting into pure speculation. There is something of a trend in the TBM700 world for pilots to come to grief when power is applied at low airspeed. The accidents have strikingly similar characteristics.
At first blush, the Oxford accident bears all the familiar hallmarks so that some early suspicions may reasonably be held. Once you start worrying about autopilots you are in the realms of pure speculation without basis.
2D
With that suggestion you really are getting into pure speculation. There is something of a trend in the TBM700 world for pilots to come to grief when power is applied at low airspeed. The accidents have strikingly similar characteristics.
At first blush, the Oxford accident bears all the familiar hallmarks so that some early suspicions may reasonably be held. Once you start worrying about autopilots you are in the realms of pure speculation without basis.
2D
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IO540
As 2D said. I know nothing about autopilot misbehaviour in TBMs and don't plan to speculate about it. My knowledge of autopilots ends with the one I use - in an Arrow III - which must be OFF below 1,000 feet. I know why it must be off, and I comply with that ruling.
I understand (from some people I respect highly) that TBMs can bite when low, that this involves left-wing-down, and that engine torque may be involved. I don't fly a TBM, and have no intention of getting into one until I've read the AAIB report on these accidents.
As 2D said. I know nothing about autopilot misbehaviour in TBMs and don't plan to speculate about it. My knowledge of autopilots ends with the one I use - in an Arrow III - which must be OFF below 1,000 feet. I know why it must be off, and I comply with that ruling.
I understand (from some people I respect highly) that TBMs can bite when low, that this involves left-wing-down, and that engine torque may be involved. I don't fly a TBM, and have no intention of getting into one until I've read the AAIB report on these accidents.
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Though I wasn't following through every detail, I don't believe the pilot engaged the a/p at any point on the flight into Dundee.
I agree that that kind of speculation is unhelpful. This does appear to be some kind of issue with control authority at low speed and high power.
W
I agree that that kind of speculation is unhelpful. This does appear to be some kind of issue with control authority at low speed and high power.
W
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Since this appears to be a perennial discussion of debate, I just want to add that:
a) It seems absurd to condemn such sensible discussion of accident cause such as this and, if everyone will forgive me, rather sanctimonious.
b) I too don't like these condolences threads which in the absence of direct knowledge of the people involved seem pointless and, again, rather sanctimonious. If I ever pile in, God forbid, please don't start one for me. (And if you knew me personally you probably wouldn't!)
Well done to BRL for separating the threads.
The Curmudgeon
a) It seems absurd to condemn such sensible discussion of accident cause such as this and, if everyone will forgive me, rather sanctimonious.
b) I too don't like these condolences threads which in the absence of direct knowledge of the people involved seem pointless and, again, rather sanctimonious. If I ever pile in, God forbid, please don't start one for me. (And if you knew me personally you probably wouldn't!)
Well done to BRL for separating the threads.
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QDM cubed - my sentiments precisely.
If ever I'm contained in a pile of smoking wreckage, my wishes are:
If ever I'm contained in a pile of smoking wreckage, my wishes are:
- Salvage whatever is usable of the aircraft to help something else fly.
- Any unusable aircraft parts should be sold as scrap to pay for the booze at a wake.
- Salvage whatever is usable of me to help someone else live.
- Any unusable body parts should be sold as scrap to pay for the booze at a wake.
- Fill in the hole.