TBM 700 accidents
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If you folks pile in, I will care! I will do what I always do in such cases (but won't post it on the Internet).
I'll even take the funeral, if you want me to (no fee for pilots!).
Meanwhile, let's keep sensible discussion going, avoid speculation, and listen to those who were involved or who know something. That might just save a life.
I'll even take the funeral, if you want me to (no fee for pilots!).
Meanwhile, let's keep sensible discussion going, avoid speculation, and listen to those who were involved or who know something. That might just save a life.
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WCollins
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I suggest she 'phones the AAIB and tells them what caused the accident then, as initial indications are that it was not at all similar to the incident you were involved in!!
I have to agree with Mr Wolfie and suggest that you follow your own initial reaction to the Dundee incident and wait until the facts come out!
I was talking this evening to my mother
I suggest she 'phones the AAIB and tells them what caused the accident then, as initial indications are that it was not at all similar to the incident you were involved in!!
I have to agree with Mr Wolfie and suggest that you follow your own initial reaction to the Dundee incident and wait until the facts come out!
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I agree with QDM in that some discussion of possible cause is worth doing. The AAIB report can take absolute ages to come out.
Also, I've read many of these reports (the original long ones, not the summaries which the flying mags print) and in the absence of a FDR or CVR, many, perhaps most, of the fatal ones are never resolved and the report ends with several options which are merely plausible.
Also, I've read many of these reports (the original long ones, not the summaries which the flying mags print) and in the absence of a FDR or CVR, many, perhaps most, of the fatal ones are never resolved and the report ends with several options which are merely plausible.
Is there any likelihood of fin stall in a TBM 700 at low speed and inadvertant sideslip conditions - such as high power, low IAS and ball not in the middle?
This is a quastion, not a comment!
This is a quastion, not a comment!
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If anyone still cares the AAIB Report is now available.
I don't think that it adds a huge amount, but I can say that it seems to me to be accurate (except that the engine is turbine, not piston.
)
Timothy
I don't think that it adds a huge amount, but I can say that it seems to me to be accurate (except that the engine is turbine, not piston.
)Timothy
Last edited by Timothy; 5th Feb 2004 at 22:47.
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What surprised me about the report is that there are no conclusions or recommendations. The description is what Timothy told us last year - no surprises there.
But is there an underlying problem with the aircraft type? I'd like to know. I don't think I want to fly in a TBM700 till I know that!
If it was yawing left, and full right rudder wouldn't sort it, wasn't adding power - for which right rudder input is required - likely to make things worse?
Or do the AAIB comments and recommendations come later?
But is there an underlying problem with the aircraft type? I'd like to know. I don't think I want to fly in a TBM700 till I know that!
If it was yawing left, and full right rudder wouldn't sort it, wasn't adding power - for which right rudder input is required - likely to make things worse?
Or do the AAIB comments and recommendations come later?
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----- This mesage is written from first-hand experience and in the interests of making unfamiliar pilots aware of a potential visual anomily on approach to R01/19 at Oxford/Kidlington -----
Rwy 01 at Oxford is relatively narrow for its 1200m length being only 23m wide. From experience it is easy for an unfamiliar pilot to become low and slow (and thus nose-high) on approach after becoming visual because of the non-standard aspect ratio (long and thin). After realising late in the approach this would necessitate a sudden application of significant power to regain the correct glideslope possibly leading to the postulated loss of control.
For safety, all unfamiliar pilots in all a/c should be aware of this potential visual anomily at Oxford/Kidlington.
Further, if our informed speculation here were to be true we would recommend all TBM700 pilots to practise slow stall-approach recoveries at safe altitude using a gentle application of sufficient power only and noting the IAS prior to recovery, any potential wing-drop, any opposite rudder or aileron required and the maxmium recovery height loss to be fully prepared for this potential situation on approach.
Phil
Rwy 01 at Oxford is relatively narrow for its 1200m length being only 23m wide. From experience it is easy for an unfamiliar pilot to become low and slow (and thus nose-high) on approach after becoming visual because of the non-standard aspect ratio (long and thin). After realising late in the approach this would necessitate a sudden application of significant power to regain the correct glideslope possibly leading to the postulated loss of control.
For safety, all unfamiliar pilots in all a/c should be aware of this potential visual anomily at Oxford/Kidlington.
Further, if our informed speculation here were to be true we would recommend all TBM700 pilots to practise slow stall-approach recoveries at safe altitude using a gentle application of sufficient power only and noting the IAS prior to recovery, any potential wing-drop, any opposite rudder or aileron required and the maxmium recovery height loss to be fully prepared for this potential situation on approach.
Phil
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Phil Rigg,
A very good point indeed and a fact that is demonstrated well in THIS photograph that I found on 'the other site'.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly
For safety, all unfamiliar pilots in all a/c should be aware of this potential visual anomily at Oxford/Kidlington.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly
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OK, so a chance of visual illusion with the runway length/width, but aren't the four lights on the left supposed to help you combat that (two reds, two whites being the glideslope)..?
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approach after becoming visual because of the non-standard aspect ratio (long and thin).
1. ISTR that this happened in VMC conditions not at the end of an instrument approach so becoming visual was not an issue
2. While optical illusions can play be a factor, that is on the whole more thought to be a problem in night and marginal conditions and usually more so for the less experienced pilots.
FD
Edited to say: Doh, Larry I know that but reading between the lines; may be it needs one!
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch'; 11th Feb 2004 at 15:31.
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Bookworm
How many of the pilots of these TBM incidents were basically heavy metal drivers, as opposed to light aircraft types?
I am pretty sure that our man at Dundee was, and I believe that the guy at Oxford may have been a 747 pilot?
Does your database access tell you such details?
Timothy
How many of the pilots of these TBM incidents were basically heavy metal drivers, as opposed to light aircraft types?
I am pretty sure that our man at Dundee was, and I believe that the guy at Oxford may have been a 747 pilot?
Does your database access tell you such details?
Timothy
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Many thanks for the responses. My further comments are as follows:
Big Hilly - An excellent documented example of the issue on the very runway itself! At any given approach point to a standard width (45m) runway if you are too high then the runway appears tall and thin, if on the glideslope it appears 'normal' and if too low it appears short and fat. If the runway is half the usual width then when on glideslope it will appear tall and thin and thus create the illusion of being to high causing an unfamiliar pilot to want to descend below the glideslope to recreate the 'normal' picture. This is exacerbated further during daylight at Oxford because the asphalt is actually 1535m long by only 23m wide even though the licensed runway length is shorter, due to displaced thresholds, thus further enhancing the tall and thin perception.
eyeinthesky - It is widely recognised and taught during training that an inexperienced pilot can fly low on a visual approach at night due to an optical illusion even with the PAPIs fully operational. The above illusion I have pointed out is less well known and taught and thus can catch-out the very experienced but unfamiliar pilot who usually operates from standard aspect ratio runways. That is why I have published this warning for Oxford/Kidlington.
Flyin'Dutch' - I do not now whether the pilot of the accident flight was conducting a visual or an instrument approach, however, regardless of the approach at some point it became visual with the possibility of an experienced but unwary pilot being caught-out by the above illusion.
Timothy - Would the above thoughts be behind your asking Bookworm if he can confirm the experience levels of the prior accident pilots?
Phil Rigg - I must learn to spell anomaly!
With due respect to all,
Phil
Big Hilly - An excellent documented example of the issue on the very runway itself! At any given approach point to a standard width (45m) runway if you are too high then the runway appears tall and thin, if on the glideslope it appears 'normal' and if too low it appears short and fat. If the runway is half the usual width then when on glideslope it will appear tall and thin and thus create the illusion of being to high causing an unfamiliar pilot to want to descend below the glideslope to recreate the 'normal' picture. This is exacerbated further during daylight at Oxford because the asphalt is actually 1535m long by only 23m wide even though the licensed runway length is shorter, due to displaced thresholds, thus further enhancing the tall and thin perception.
eyeinthesky - It is widely recognised and taught during training that an inexperienced pilot can fly low on a visual approach at night due to an optical illusion even with the PAPIs fully operational. The above illusion I have pointed out is less well known and taught and thus can catch-out the very experienced but unfamiliar pilot who usually operates from standard aspect ratio runways. That is why I have published this warning for Oxford/Kidlington.
Flyin'Dutch' - I do not now whether the pilot of the accident flight was conducting a visual or an instrument approach, however, regardless of the approach at some point it became visual with the possibility of an experienced but unwary pilot being caught-out by the above illusion.
Timothy - Would the above thoughts be behind your asking Bookworm if he can confirm the experience levels of the prior accident pilots?
Phil Rigg - I must learn to spell anomaly!
With due respect to all,
Phil
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Phil
Isn't it funny how we bump into each other every decade or so? Must pass the news onto Topsham (where they have all returned as if the rest of their lives never happened....maybe it didn't, really)
Funnily enough my thought about pilot experience arose earlier in the evening than when I read your thoughts. Mine were more along the lines of whether someone who is used to flying big jets would make different instinctive control inputs during a go-around or other power burst from someone more schooled in torsional and propwash effects. It was only an idle thought based on what little I know of the background of the Dundee and Oxford pilots.
I do think, however, that you might be onto something; it's a clever thought.
Incidentally the hard runway at Shoreham has a similar illusion, whereas Manston is rather the opposite as it is soooo wide!
Get in touch when you are on the mainland sometime.
Timothy
Isn't it funny how we bump into each other every decade or so? Must pass the news onto Topsham (where they have all returned as if the rest of their lives never happened....maybe it didn't, really)
Funnily enough my thought about pilot experience arose earlier in the evening than when I read your thoughts. Mine were more along the lines of whether someone who is used to flying big jets would make different instinctive control inputs during a go-around or other power burst from someone more schooled in torsional and propwash effects. It was only an idle thought based on what little I know of the background of the Dundee and Oxford pilots.
I do think, however, that you might be onto something; it's a clever thought.
Incidentally the hard runway at Shoreham has a similar illusion, whereas Manston is rather the opposite as it is soooo wide!
Get in touch when you are on the mainland sometime.
Timothy