Controllers!!!
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Controllers!!!
The short thread on Shoreham provoked me into thinking that it could be an interesting thread to learn what pilots expect from controllers, or for that matter any ground based radio operators.
I always find it interesting how different controllers at the same tower perform the job.
What’s the correct balance from caustic wit when the controller spots someone descending live side into the circuit, to the new PPL who’s on his first away flight since getting his license and cant find the airfield, to the chap who set out in marginal VFR to find he needs a fair amount of help to get home when the conditions deteriorated a bit further.
I always find it interesting how different controllers at the same tower perform the job.
What’s the correct balance from caustic wit when the controller spots someone descending live side into the circuit, to the new PPL who’s on his first away flight since getting his license and cant find the airfield, to the chap who set out in marginal VFR to find he needs a fair amount of help to get home when the conditions deteriorated a bit further.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I expect controllers to let me go about my business without them getting in my way if I can do so safely. And if I can't do that safely (e.g. because of other traffic, or because I'm doing something wrong, or because I'm lost) then I expect them to help everyone find a safe, practical alternative.
Occassionally, we all screw up. If someone is keeping an eye on me and spots me screwing up, I'd expect them to tell me about it. But on the other hand I know that controllers, even when they're providing me with a service, are too busy to watch me every second, so I never rely on them.
This goes for every type of "controller", from an air/ground operator (not technically a controller, I know) through to a tower controller at a busy airfield or a LARS controller. The only difference between them is the equipment and training they have to be able to help me safely in various different situations. For example, an air/ground operator does not have the equipment or training to be able to safely give me instructions, in general, but does have lots of local information which might be useful to help me avoid an unsafe situation. (But there's always an exception which proves the rule.)
FFF
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Occassionally, we all screw up. If someone is keeping an eye on me and spots me screwing up, I'd expect them to tell me about it. But on the other hand I know that controllers, even when they're providing me with a service, are too busy to watch me every second, so I never rely on them.
This goes for every type of "controller", from an air/ground operator (not technically a controller, I know) through to a tower controller at a busy airfield or a LARS controller. The only difference between them is the equipment and training they have to be able to help me safely in various different situations. For example, an air/ground operator does not have the equipment or training to be able to safely give me instructions, in general, but does have lots of local information which might be useful to help me avoid an unsafe situation. (But there's always an exception which proves the rule.)
FFF
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As a time-served PPL, I'm looking for:
- Immediate clearance into the zone
- Direct routing, No 1 for a straight-in approach
- Ability to use any runway I please with no conflicting circuit traffic / movements
- A parking slot next to the terminal entrance
- A coffee and Jammie Dodger waiting for me on arrival
- Zero landing fees
- Priority start / taxi clearances
- Immediate departure and clearance through the zone
- All delivered by a gorgeous leggy blonde with a sexy voice and great sense of humour
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And what you get is:
- Remain clear of controlled airspace, I will call you.
- You are number 11 behind the Cessna on 25 mile final
- Go around, I say again, Go around
- A parking slot 800 yards away in a marsh
- A £5 latte in a rundown portacabin
- That'll be £27 quid, plus mandatory handling, plus VAT
- Taxi to holding point alpha and wait for 20 minutes for the Cessna on 37 mile final
- Remain clear of controlled airspace, I will call you
- Mr Nasty from Elstree
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ATCOs, we have the best in the world
Come on guys its not that bad.
I am constantly impressed by the quality , professionalism and friendliness of controllers. You almost always get what you ask for and if you don''t get it there is usually a reason. Military ATCOs are just about the best in the world.
My top 3 bad experiences (in fact perhaps the only three are)
1) Mr Nasty. If I did not have to go there I would never go there again. Unbelievable.
2) Alderney , on take off, 'Request low level (500' ish) circuit of the island' Response, 'Negative we have an islander inbound (sometime today). We can orbit and what do they do if two planes turn up at once??
3) Solent. Radio has been monitored and silent for ten minutes. 'Request er zone transit' response ' Negative route around'. I think the problem was we slipped an er in, d*** failed.
I am constantly impressed by the quality , professionalism and friendliness of controllers. You almost always get what you ask for and if you don''t get it there is usually a reason. Military ATCOs are just about the best in the world.
My top 3 bad experiences (in fact perhaps the only three are)
1) Mr Nasty. If I did not have to go there I would never go there again. Unbelievable.
2) Alderney , on take off, 'Request low level (500' ish) circuit of the island' Response, 'Negative we have an islander inbound (sometime today). We can orbit and what do they do if two planes turn up at once??
3) Solent. Radio has been monitored and silent for ten minutes. 'Request er zone transit' response ' Negative route around'. I think the problem was we slipped an er in, d*** failed.
niknak
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A simple solution, try and arrange to spend half a day in your local atc unit, preferably when the weather's nice, then you'll see exactly how many pilots we have to tolerate with the "I expect" attitude, and how many EVO's there are.
I could guarantee encountering at leats 3 per shift.
Personally, I welcome PPL etc visitors to ATC, it gives all a good opportunity to find out what we're both all about, PM me if you would be interested.
I could guarantee encountering at leats 3 per shift.
Personally, I welcome PPL etc visitors to ATC, it gives all a good opportunity to find out what we're both all about, PM me if you would be interested.
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How many Evo's there are? It was a joke, niknak, any resemblance to a real airfield is purely coincidental - I mean, £27 quid, plus mandatory handling, plus VAT just to land a spamcan... that would be crazy 
Seriously, I'd agree completely about going to see ATC in action. It's fascinating - and educational - experience
Seriously, I'd agree completely about going to see ATC in action. It's fascinating - and educational - experience
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I am not one of the I have to talk to everybody brigade, I often maintain a listening watch without speaking to anyone, I don't expect ATC to look after me, I am responsible for my own separation and don't expect ATC to do it. When I do have to contact them, the military are brilliant, yesterday handing us over from one unit to the next. More often than not, I get the service and transit asked for. I think they are great.
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niknak - it was a joke, right??!!
I've been in numerous military ATC units (as a staff member on an ATC Unit, have to escort mummy's little treasures round one every time we go on camp on a flying station!). I've been in fewer civvy ones, other than Perth A/G when I collect the keys for the a/c, LHR (around 35 yrs ago) and EDI (last year).
Fully endorse the idea of:[list=1][*]Visiting *an* ATSU if you've never been inside one[*]Visiting your home ATSU if you have one / have never been in it before[*]Taking a packet of biscuits / doughnuts into your home ATSU on a regular basis![*]Buying your airfield / approach controllers an off duty beer or 2 at Xmas - works wonders![*]Asking nicely and saying please / thank you[*]Keeping it brief when things are busy[*]Thinking from the point of view of the one inside the tower / approach room occasionally[/list=1]
Seriously, a bit of co-operation / empathy / consideration goes a long way on both sides - treat each other as human beings and it usually all works well (with one or 2 notable exceptions, but I don't have that problem with EDI controllers - they're great! [at least, that's what ATCBabe told me to say!!])
I've been in numerous military ATC units (as a staff member on an ATC Unit, have to escort mummy's little treasures round one every time we go on camp on a flying station!
). I've been in fewer civvy ones, other than Perth A/G when I collect the keys for the a/c, LHR (around 35 yrs ago) and EDI (last year).Fully endorse the idea of:[list=1][*]Visiting *an* ATSU if you've never been inside one[*]Visiting your home ATSU if you have one / have never been in it before[*]Taking a packet of biscuits / doughnuts into your home ATSU on a regular basis![*]Buying your airfield / approach controllers an off duty beer or 2 at Xmas - works wonders![*]Asking nicely and saying please / thank you[*]Keeping it brief when things are busy[*]Thinking from the point of view of the one inside the tower / approach room occasionally[/list=1]
Seriously, a bit of co-operation / empathy / consideration goes a long way on both sides - treat each other as human beings and it usually all works well (with one or 2 notable exceptions, but I don't have that problem with EDI controllers - they're great! [at least, that's what ATCBabe told me to say!!
])
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More praise for the Military controllers. I often travel north and find they automatically hand me from one to the next giving me the appropriate squawk before handing me on.
On the other hand..! Had a bad experience with a controller at a Well known Museum close to Cambridge recently. Having phoned ahead to announce my arrival, and being more or less on time. Tuned in to the said station a few minutes before arriving to listen in. Called up with about 8 miles to run to be told very curtly to "WAIT"...! My normal cruise speed is 155Kts so I was approaching fairly quickly and he didnt come back to me. Called again to be told to Wait again. He was by no means overworked and I found his attitude to be aggressive, unfriendly and unhelpful. In the end I had to put in 2 orbits before finally announcing that I was joining right base, he then decided to speak to me!
Politeness costs nothing!
On the other hand..! Had a bad experience with a controller at a Well known Museum close to Cambridge recently. Having phoned ahead to announce my arrival, and being more or less on time. Tuned in to the said station a few minutes before arriving to listen in. Called up with about 8 miles to run to be told very curtly to "WAIT"...! My normal cruise speed is 155Kts so I was approaching fairly quickly and he didnt come back to me. Called again to be told to Wait again. He was by no means overworked and I found his attitude to be aggressive, unfriendly and unhelpful. In the end I had to put in 2 orbits before finally announcing that I was joining right base, he then decided to speak to me!
Politeness costs nothing!
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Just got back from a long trip with another PPRuNer, and the service we got from the ATC units along the way was excellent (apart from Solent, who were very busy and understandably asked us to stay outside their zone).
Radar information service was given when requested (mostly with the warning that cover wasn't too good).
I've never visited my "home" tower but have been to several others, and would make it mandatory for student pilots if I could. Half an hour sitting at the left elbow of a controller at Drayton or Swanwick is quite an education.
Radar information service was given when requested (mostly with the warning that cover wasn't too good).
I've never visited my "home" tower but have been to several others, and would make it mandatory for student pilots if I could. Half an hour sitting at the left elbow of a controller at Drayton or Swanwick is quite an education.
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A visit to your local ATC unit shouldn't have to be compulsory , you should absolutely want to visit us without any need for it to be a chore.
Doughnuts, biscuits, and a couple of pints at Christmas also not needed although terribly nice.
After you have visited us (and try to make it on a day when we are busy not a fogged out day so you don't see the LARS in operation) you will realise just how much work we do and the amount of work you do not see, such as the inter-unit co-ordination , which allows us to hand you over to the next unit with a squawk.
I see a lot of praise going to the Military here, I presume that is because they are handling many of you under a LARS , we civvies to do that.
We are not looking for praise , just a realisation that we have a job to do , we do it without prejudice , and we do it with your safety in mind at all times
Doughnuts, biscuits, and a couple of pints at Christmas also not needed although terribly nice.
After you have visited us (and try to make it on a day when we are busy not a fogged out day so you don't see the LARS in operation) you will realise just how much work we do and the amount of work you do not see, such as the inter-unit co-ordination , which allows us to hand you over to the next unit with a squawk.
I see a lot of praise going to the Military here, I presume that is because they are handling many of you under a LARS , we civvies to do that.
We are not looking for praise , just a realisation that we have a job to do , we do it without prejudice , and we do it with your safety in mind at all times
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Keef,
You must have been flying with EVO then
Seriously though, I have nothing but praise for all the ATCOs I've encountered over the past 3 years. Particularly Farnbro' who I talk to every time I go flying, and whose tower I was fortunate enough to visit earlier this year. (maybe I'm just lucky)
At this stage I guess what I expect from ATSUs is - tolerance!
SD
Just got back from a long trip with another PPRuNer, and the service we got from the ATC units along the way was excellent (apart from Solent, who were very busy and understandably asked us to stay outside their zone).
Seriously though, I have nothing but praise for all the ATCOs I've encountered over the past 3 years. Particularly Farnbro' who I talk to every time I go flying, and whose tower I was fortunate enough to visit earlier this year. (maybe I'm just lucky)
At this stage I guess what I expect from ATSUs is - tolerance!
SD
Firstly Flying4fun says we "are too busy to watch me every second, so I never rely on them." Yes we don't watch every move you make. We are not Sky police and most infringments if not serious will go unmentioned but please rely on us otherwise I'd be standing in the welfare queue trying to claim unemploymnet (which isn't good in Africa) And If we do become unreliable to the point that you start doing your own thing to avoid a collision again I'd be in the queue at home affairs.
The fear of god is usually placed in to a new pilot when he starts learning to fly by an agitated ATC and from then on he thinks every ATC is the human version of some dragon that was never slayed. This can be rectified by spending time in the TWR and you will see that I'm just as normal(read crazy) as anyone else and I am also human so when I pull the ring trough it I'm also expected to "please explain and offer appologies"
There is usually a lot of unheard work happening in the ATCC with liason or even operating another frequency that you may not be monitoring. Now this is not me trying to make an excuse for bad behavior but if you feel that you recieve bad service why not contact you local unit after landing and ask why. Refusal through a zone might be done because a procedure exists that discurreges this for the ATC safety to prevent him/her being overloaded or an ATC is handling their capacity which could greatly differ from someone elses. We all think at different rates and many factors (headaches, stress, fatigue, experience levels) could make us want to slow traffic down.
I encourage meeting your local ATCO's and spend time asking questions (over a few beers will make us more willing) and it is a 2 way street as that also gives me the opertunity to ask you questions about how you operate your acft and I can then try improve sequencing etc. The only thing I urge you to remember is that you are not the only one in the sky at any moment. Only the Wright Brothers had that privlege, If you have to fit in No 2 sometimes remember all the times you were No1.
How you sound on the radio also has a lot to do with how much I trust you to carry out an instruction. Sounding professional does help a lot.I know this is bias but If I'm not sure that an instruction is going to be understood then I'd rather leave you at the back then I don't have to hope you get it right.
I know that it can be a scarry to speak to us especially whilst learning to fly but remember I also had to learn to be an ATC and I remember my 1st time on frequency and how I shook with fear but as my Instr said - Its no different than talking to the guy in the pub just use the correct R/T
The fear of god is usually placed in to a new pilot when he starts learning to fly by an agitated ATC and from then on he thinks every ATC is the human version of some dragon that was never slayed. This can be rectified by spending time in the TWR and you will see that I'm just as normal(read crazy) as anyone else and I am also human so when I pull the ring trough it I'm also expected to "please explain and offer appologies"
There is usually a lot of unheard work happening in the ATCC with liason or even operating another frequency that you may not be monitoring. Now this is not me trying to make an excuse for bad behavior but if you feel that you recieve bad service why not contact you local unit after landing and ask why. Refusal through a zone might be done because a procedure exists that discurreges this for the ATC safety to prevent him/her being overloaded or an ATC is handling their capacity which could greatly differ from someone elses. We all think at different rates and many factors (headaches, stress, fatigue, experience levels) could make us want to slow traffic down.
I encourage meeting your local ATCO's and spend time asking questions (over a few beers will make us more willing) and it is a 2 way street as that also gives me the opertunity to ask you questions about how you operate your acft and I can then try improve sequencing etc. The only thing I urge you to remember is that you are not the only one in the sky at any moment. Only the Wright Brothers had that privlege, If you have to fit in No 2 sometimes remember all the times you were No1.
How you sound on the radio also has a lot to do with how much I trust you to carry out an instruction. Sounding professional does help a lot.I know this is bias but If I'm not sure that an instruction is going to be understood then I'd rather leave you at the back then I don't have to hope you get it right.
I know that it can be a scarry to speak to us especially whilst learning to fly but remember I also had to learn to be an ATC and I remember my 1st time on frequency and how I shook with fear but as my Instr said - Its no different than talking to the guy in the pub just use the correct R/T
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I have to agree that the majority of controllers do a fantastic job often with great humour and under high stress. I have been in plenty of military towers in my service career but never a civil one which I would like to see.
There are still services that are uncooperative, Solent in my experiance is the worse followed by Stanstead. I have been to Guernsey 3 times in the last 2 months and the Isle of Wight 2 and not once have I received a service from Solent. Just the usual stay clear of controlled airspace then they ignore you for 10 minutes while the radio is quiet. Coming back from Guernsey a few weeks ago in a fast twin I called them up well outside of there zone for transit, got the usual "stay clear". Repeated calls and they then came back to me and told me that I was in there airpspace. Acording to my DME and GPS I was still 10 miles outside and 1000ft under! They then sent me all the way around the outside I would imagine as "punishment". When I complained I got another controller and was immediatly allowed to return to a north course under own navigation.
The last trip I avoided Solent completely and talked to Bourneomouth who were outstanding and gave me a RIS untill handoff at the Jersey zone. Coming back we had the same excellant service.
Maybe this is Solents way of keeping GA out of there space?
The main problem is that SAM is THE VOR when coming back from the CI's and that section of coast is frequently IMC.
There are still services that are uncooperative, Solent in my experiance is the worse followed by Stanstead. I have been to Guernsey 3 times in the last 2 months and the Isle of Wight 2 and not once have I received a service from Solent. Just the usual stay clear of controlled airspace then they ignore you for 10 minutes while the radio is quiet. Coming back from Guernsey a few weeks ago in a fast twin I called them up well outside of there zone for transit, got the usual "stay clear". Repeated calls and they then came back to me and told me that I was in there airpspace. Acording to my DME and GPS I was still 10 miles outside and 1000ft under! They then sent me all the way around the outside I would imagine as "punishment". When I complained I got another controller and was immediatly allowed to return to a north course under own navigation.
The last trip I avoided Solent completely and talked to Bourneomouth who were outstanding and gave me a RIS untill handoff at the Jersey zone. Coming back we had the same excellant service.
Maybe this is Solents way of keeping GA out of there space?
The main problem is that SAM is THE VOR when coming back from the CI's and that section of coast is frequently IMC.
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Despite what Saab says about me (I wish I'd kept my mouth shut at that pub... ) I find Solent helpful. Since my QXC i've only been refused a transit when the frequency was bursting with commercial traffic, which seems reasonable to me. Transiting along the Solent under their zone they always seem willing to give traffic information etc. I guess they're fairly keen to hand you off to Bournemouth, but no worries there
) I find Solent helpful. Since my QXC i've only been refused a transit when the frequency was bursting with commercial traffic, which seems reasonable to me. Transiting along the Solent under their zone they always seem willing to give traffic information etc. I guess they're fairly keen to hand you off to Bournemouth, but no worries there
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Couple of minor issues.
It is interesting how often you have taken the trouble to get the correct QNH and tell the controller you are at 2,500 feet on 1008 to be given the QNH again which of course you feel obliged to read back again.
It still surprises me how often pilots do not give the correct info to London in particular and others in general - I would say 80% of calls elicit a request for more info. It must be very frustrating for the controllers.
I do think there is a tendency for controllers to show their annoyance very obviously at times. Now I fully symphathise when they are dealing with some Wally who resolutely fails to read back the information or whatever but I am never certain whether the pilots work load has over taken him for some reason and is not being helped by a annoyed controller. Maybe leave out the attitude at the time and ask the pilot to give you a call on the land line - that seems to work very well.
It is interesting how often you have taken the trouble to get the correct QNH and tell the controller you are at 2,500 feet on 1008 to be given the QNH again which of course you feel obliged to read back again.
It still surprises me how often pilots do not give the correct info to London in particular and others in general - I would say 80% of calls elicit a request for more info. It must be very frustrating for the controllers.
I do think there is a tendency for controllers to show their annoyance very obviously at times. Now I fully symphathise when they are dealing with some Wally who resolutely fails to read back the information or whatever but I am never certain whether the pilots work load has over taken him for some reason and is not being helped by a annoyed controller. Maybe leave out the attitude at the time and ask the pilot to give you a call on the land line - that seems to work very well.