Gliders and avoiding them !
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Canada
This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots, so your comment was way out of line.
"Your comment was way out of line", indeed ...
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Mmm I've not seen this level of personal slagging in Private Flying before. Chill chaps, ever since the emancipation of the slaves I thought everybody was entitled to an opinion.......
The only glider I've ever been in was an open cockpit Slingsby back in my Air Cadet days. I've seen loads since in our crowded UK airspace. Given the vast expanse of Canadian skies I can understand how MLS-12D hasn't seen a glider whilst flying powered aircraft.
I still grin when I remember listening to a conversation between an American bizjet pilot and Luton Radar. You could hear the unasked question (gliders? International airport?) when he was refused a descent to 4,000' as there was glider activity beneath him
The invisibilty of gliders was discussed a while ago here. Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory?
The only glider I've ever been in was an open cockpit Slingsby back in my Air Cadet days. I've seen loads since in our crowded UK airspace. Given the vast expanse of Canadian skies I can understand how MLS-12D hasn't seen a glider whilst flying powered aircraft.
I still grin when I remember listening to a conversation between an American bizjet pilot and Luton Radar. You could hear the unasked question (gliders? International airport?) when he was refused a descent to 4,000' as there was glider activity beneath him
The invisibilty of gliders was discussed a while ago here. Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory?
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LnS
So did I.
Never flew the 'Capstan', but I have a few hours in Blaniks and K13s. You certainly learn how to use the rudder in gliders.
I'm not surprised that MLS hasn't seen gliders when flying powered aircraft in Canada either, a lot of Canada is covered in white snow for much of the years and gliders are coloured.....
(only joking!)
ever since the emancipation of the slaves I thought everybody was entitled to an opinion
Never flew the 'Capstan', but I have a few hours in Blaniks and K13s. You certainly learn how to use the rudder in gliders.
I'm not surprised that MLS hasn't seen gliders when flying powered aircraft in Canada either, a lot of Canada is covered in white snow for much of the years and gliders are coloured.....
(only joking!)
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: UK
LowNSlow wrote [snip] "Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory? "
There are 5 channels used by gliders, but they have specific purposes, not general chat, and all except 129.9 are very crowded most of the time, certainly on the good gliding days. Bear in mind that nearly 100 gliding sites have to use just these, as well as gliders talking to car mobile bases - we don't get allocated different channels for each aerodrome. (The channels are allocated by CAA/RA; the uses are as recommended by the BGA.)
130.4 - cloud flying and cross-country location messages only
130.125 (i) Training (lead and follow) other cross-country; (ii) local and other flying,
130.1 (i) competition start and finishes, local and other flying; (ii) training (lead and follow)
129.975 as a control frequency within 10 nautical miles of certain approved sites and up to 3000 feet only - glider site frequency
129.9 ground/ground only.
- - - - - - -
129.9, and perhaps 129.975 also, is shared with other users.
(i) is the primary use, (ii) is the secondary for use when the primary frequency is very busy, where there are alternatives shown above.
These channels are not supposed to be used for some of the things that "chat" might include, but there are people who are not as disciplined as one would like (a trait not exclusive to gliding).
Chris N.
There are 5 channels used by gliders, but they have specific purposes, not general chat, and all except 129.9 are very crowded most of the time, certainly on the good gliding days. Bear in mind that nearly 100 gliding sites have to use just these, as well as gliders talking to car mobile bases - we don't get allocated different channels for each aerodrome. (The channels are allocated by CAA/RA; the uses are as recommended by the BGA.)
130.4 - cloud flying and cross-country location messages only
130.125 (i) Training (lead and follow) other cross-country; (ii) local and other flying,
130.1 (i) competition start and finishes, local and other flying; (ii) training (lead and follow)
129.975 as a control frequency within 10 nautical miles of certain approved sites and up to 3000 feet only - glider site frequency
129.9 ground/ground only.
- - - - - - -
129.9, and perhaps 129.975 also, is shared with other users.
(i) is the primary use, (ii) is the secondary for use when the primary frequency is very busy, where there are alternatives shown above.
These channels are not supposed to be used for some of the things that "chat" might include, but there are people who are not as disciplined as one would like (a trait not exclusive to gliding).
Chris N.
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: SE England
Back to the topic....
I fly out of a place literally a few miles away from Lasham. I started my flying career on SLMG flyiing next to Lasham..and yes it is hard to spot gliders! Our powered gliders have the dayglo-orange 'conspicuity' patches on them and i have to say, it dos help from certain angles, but in some light and viewed from some angles you just cannot see them clearly or at all until they are close.
With putting transponders in gliders...can you imagine what farnborough radar screen would look like during championship week at Lasham??! Yes, it is a good idea and we have transponders in ours...but the conditions in which transponders in gliders were used would have to be thought about...
Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times.
With putting transponders in gliders...can you imagine what farnborough radar screen would look like during championship week at Lasham??! Yes, it is a good idea and we have transponders in ours...but the conditions in which transponders in gliders were used would have to be thought about...
Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times.
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ACW335
This is true, but remember that some quite heavy metal may be in the airspace, e.g. a Canadair Challenger proceeding quite legally at 250kts.
If you get blown away by wake turbulence, then airlaw may not be such a great consolation.
I had a 'close encounter' (i.e. intended and advised by ATC) with a 727 a few years ago, in controlled airspace under radar control and it did make me consider how good viz is in jets and turboprops, since the crew never saw my a/c even though we saw them VERY clearly.
Still, its your call.....
It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times.
If you get blown away by wake turbulence, then airlaw may not be such a great consolation.
I had a 'close encounter' (i.e. intended and advised by ATC) with a 727 a few years ago, in controlled airspace under radar control and it did make me consider how good viz is in jets and turboprops, since the crew never saw my a/c even though we saw them VERY clearly.
Still, its your call.....
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 11th December 2003 at 04:54.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: UK
ACW335
quote"Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times"
You state the obvious and I would suggest that the majority of times GA aircraft will fly reasonably straight and level HOWEVER, experience suggests that gliders do something very different and movement is very unpredictable. I do hope glider pilots do not rely on powered a/c giving way. Perhaps I am just too cynical but no doubt all you glider types will tell me why I have this perception!
quote"Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times"
You state the obvious and I would suggest that the majority of times GA aircraft will fly reasonably straight and level HOWEVER, experience suggests that gliders do something very different and movement is very unpredictable. I do hope glider pilots do not rely on powered a/c giving way. Perhaps I am just too cynical but no doubt all you glider types will tell me why I have this perception!
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
WorkingHard
I thought you put that very well indeed.
Perhaps there should be a rule (I'm being serious now) that as powered a/c don't dart about, they should be given right of way over a/c such as gliders who do take up an orbital chunk of airspace a mile wide within a short period of time.
Think of it, you are on a long trip (2 hrs+) in your Arrow and you are in the middle of it with a frequency change, a VOR to select, a GPS to cross check, a passenger to shut up, a transponder to reset, a map to refold and a knee board to write on. Should you really have the added responsiblilty at 120 kts of looking out for someone doing aerial hoops?
I am being semi-sarcastic but when you look at it like that it does make you think......
(Blindfold on and ready for the firing squad)
I thought you put that very well indeed.
Perhaps there should be a rule (I'm being serious now) that as powered a/c don't dart about, they should be given right of way over a/c such as gliders who do take up an orbital chunk of airspace a mile wide within a short period of time.
Think of it, you are on a long trip (2 hrs+) in your Arrow and you are in the middle of it with a frequency change, a VOR to select, a GPS to cross check, a passenger to shut up, a transponder to reset, a map to refold and a knee board to write on. Should you really have the added responsiblilty at 120 kts of looking out for someone doing aerial hoops?
I am being semi-sarcastic but when you look at it like that it does make you think......
(Blindfold on and ready for the firing squad)
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Monocock/Working Hard
The rules of the air follow the rules of the sea closely, so steam must give way to sail - but when a supertanker never sees a yacht and the yacht ends up as flotsam and the supertanker doesn't even have a dent or scratch, does anyone even know what happened?
Yes, air law is very clear, but the involved parties may end up arguing their case in front of St Peter
The rules of the air follow the rules of the sea closely, so steam must give way to sail - but when a supertanker never sees a yacht and the yacht ends up as flotsam and the supertanker doesn't even have a dent or scratch, does anyone even know what happened?
Yes, air law is very clear, but the involved parties may end up arguing their case in front of St Peter
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From: EuroGA.org
ACW335
The transponder requirement isn't just for radar; it is also for TAS/TCAS.
Fortunately a transponder good enough to be seen on TCAS requires far less power than the standard sort.
The standard counter argument is that en-route mid-airs in GA are extremely rare, and GA TAS/TCAS is very expensive (a £20k+ option on most new IFR planes) but airliners have it and it will only take an incident involving an airliner and a glider... This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID).
The transponder requirement isn't just for radar; it is also for TAS/TCAS.
Fortunately a transponder good enough to be seen on TCAS requires far less power than the standard sort.
The standard counter argument is that en-route mid-airs in GA are extremely rare, and GA TAS/TCAS is very expensive (a £20k+ option on most new IFR planes) but airliners have it and it will only take an incident involving an airliner and a glider... This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID).
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From: SE England
GULP...
Blimey..not being a 'conventional' glider pilot i didn't realise that they were able to venture into the likes of the LTMA (the gliders i fly all have transponders) and with it being quite a low height down south i can now see that it must happen regularly. Im sure something needs to be done to prevent showers of fibre glass in the airways (didnt realise it was that bad!
!)
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
chrisN thanks for the frequencies. I asked as I thought that it might be useful, when in the vicinity of somewhere like Biscester on a sunny Saturday, to listen out to 130.4 or 130.1 to give myself a clue regarding the position of invisible gliders.
Undisciplined use of radio is by no means limited to glider pilots unfortunately
XXX Radar, this is Jonathon Livingstone Sparrow cruising at 1,495 feet on 1006 millibars heading 260 degrees magnetic on an AirPath compass, sitting in the front left hand seat of Piper Tomahawk registration G-!!!!, serial number PA-34/01010204, going to Sleap for a cup of tea with two sugars and milk followed by bacon, sausage and two over easy eggs.
Undisciplined use of radio is by no means limited to glider pilots unfortunately
XXX Radar, this is Jonathon Livingstone Sparrow cruising at 1,495 feet on 1006 millibars heading 260 degrees magnetic on an AirPath compass, sitting in the front left hand seat of Piper Tomahawk registration G-!!!!, serial number PA-34/01010204, going to Sleap for a cup of tea with two sugars and milk followed by bacon, sausage and two over easy eggs.
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From: UK
IO540 wrote: [snip] "This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID)."
Illegally, I presume.
There are or have been places and occasions where gliders are permitted in certain localised areas of the LTMA, e.g. during certain competitions at Booker with CAA special approval and then of course NOTAM'd, but in general gliders have been banned from the LTMA since, IIRC, 1975.
For the most part, the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds; just as assigned levels will be free from anything else except level busts or people in the wrong place due to pilot or ATC error. Breaking the law and making errors are, unfortunately, human characteristics which seem incapable of complete eradication.
Chris N.
Illegally, I presume.
There are or have been places and occasions where gliders are permitted in certain localised areas of the LTMA, e.g. during certain competitions at Booker with CAA special approval and then of course NOTAM'd, but in general gliders have been banned from the LTMA since, IIRC, 1975.
For the most part, the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds; just as assigned levels will be free from anything else except level busts or people in the wrong place due to pilot or ATC error. Breaking the law and making errors are, unfortunately, human characteristics which seem incapable of complete eradication.
Chris N.
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From: EuroGA.org
ChrisN
the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds
Indeed - the difference is that not only GA planes are normally visible on radar even with the XP off (gliders usually aren't, it seems to me when flying under a RIS) but GA will have to carry and use a XP before long.
The question is whether having visually poorly visible and electronically invisible aircraft around is a good thing. On the face of it, no, but in reality there are few collisions between gliders and non-gliders, so it seems to work.
the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds
Indeed - the difference is that not only GA planes are normally visible on radar even with the XP off (gliders usually aren't, it seems to me when flying under a RIS) but GA will have to carry and use a XP before long.
The question is whether having visually poorly visible and electronically invisible aircraft around is a good thing. On the face of it, no, but in reality there are few collisions between gliders and non-gliders, so it seems to work.
