Gliders and avoiding them !
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Glider pilots. If the safety experts dictate a change then so be it. Live with it like we all have to in powered flight. So your glide ratio is lessened. Won't that apply to everyone so the level playing field remains. many of us don't need or want FM immune radio fits. BUT if we want to use certain airspace then we have to have it fitted. If it is decreed that a transponder is required to be used for any flight then as I said so be it
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Lets treat gliders like other dangerous things in this PC age and ban them.
Airspace should be optimised to support commercial aviation; GA at least provides ab initio training for future ATPLs in the form of PPLs, but what use are gliders?????
Sorry guys, but your are the weakest link .................... goodbye
Airspace should be optimised to support commercial aviation; GA at least provides ab initio training for future ATPLs in the form of PPLs, but what use are gliders?????
Sorry guys, but your are the weakest link .................... goodbye
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Hi There,
After the last couple of posts I could not resist putting my opinion across.
We seem to be getting into a GA vs Gliding debate and as a regular of both I feel able to comment.
We only seem to be considering high performance competition gliders at the moment. I would suggest that the reality is that most gliding is carried out in simple wood/fabric/steel gliders with almost no electrical system – often no radio. The concept of retrofitting the UK’s entire glider fleet with a ram air turbine, strobe system and transponder is simply totally impractical and would double the cost of many aircraft. Many people choose gliding because they can afford it – less than £25 per hour in many cases! FM immunity might seem painful but GA regularly flies in all manner of airspace where aircraft do rely more on technology for collision avoidance – gliders do not!
As an instructor I always tell my students that the best way to stay alive in any cockpit is to scan every visible part of the sky every few seconds. You might not spot the glider until quite late but I bet it’s not too late – and that’s what matters!
We are just coming up to 100 years of powered flight (and a few more for gliding) – for how many of these years has flying been relatively safe and for how many years have we had TCAS, GPS and all the other gizmo’s?
Keep Looking!
After the last couple of posts I could not resist putting my opinion across.
We seem to be getting into a GA vs Gliding debate and as a regular of both I feel able to comment.
We only seem to be considering high performance competition gliders at the moment. I would suggest that the reality is that most gliding is carried out in simple wood/fabric/steel gliders with almost no electrical system – often no radio. The concept of retrofitting the UK’s entire glider fleet with a ram air turbine, strobe system and transponder is simply totally impractical and would double the cost of many aircraft. Many people choose gliding because they can afford it – less than £25 per hour in many cases! FM immunity might seem painful but GA regularly flies in all manner of airspace where aircraft do rely more on technology for collision avoidance – gliders do not!
As an instructor I always tell my students that the best way to stay alive in any cockpit is to scan every visible part of the sky every few seconds. You might not spot the glider until quite late but I bet it’s not too late – and that’s what matters!
We are just coming up to 100 years of powered flight (and a few more for gliding) – for how many of these years has flying been relatively safe and for how many years have we had TCAS, GPS and all the other gizmo’s?
Keep Looking!
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I think the major problem here is that the gliding community are perceived to be against anything that imposes any kind of restriction on them. Stop saying "we are gliders and are exempt/cant do that/wont do that" Join the real world and enjoy what you have but in a way that is safe and secure. And yes Rich we have had 100 years of relatively safe skies but we now have things like regulated airspace which did not used to exist, we have aircraft exceeding 50mph (closing speeds, time to avoid etc) and because of cost we have (I think) huge numbers of gliders compared to say 20 years ago. Take great care to be responsible and acknowledge others or be regulated. That I think is the choice you face.
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Rich
I was being ironic, but making the point that WorkingHard puts very nicely in his post.
GA is suffering from commercial aviation demanding more and more airspace and gliders will inevitably feel the same pressure to come under regulation that will not be palatable.
Its time to wake up, smell the coffee and be a little more proactive methinks.
I was being ironic, but making the point that WorkingHard puts very nicely in his post.
GA is suffering from commercial aviation demanding more and more airspace and gliders will inevitably feel the same pressure to come under regulation that will not be palatable.
Its time to wake up, smell the coffee and be a little more proactive methinks.
Sink The Pink
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Surely if you just paint the feckin' things a different colour then we would all be a lot safer.
The theory about different colours causing ultra violet rot is a load of cobblers. They can be painted a different colour and should be as far as I'm concerned.
SEE AND BE SEEN
The theory about different colours causing ultra violet rot is a load of cobblers. They can be painted a different colour and should be as far as I'm concerned.
SEE AND BE SEEN
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IMHO the only people qualified to express an opinion are active glider and power pilots: rich_hodgetts et al. Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective.
Fibreglass gliders must be white, period, for anti-UV reasons (ToryBoy, I presume that you have a D.Phil. in FRP engineering? ). But I like david viewing's idea of some sort of reflector panels ... that might help, and probably wouldn't cost much in terms of dollars or performance.
Fibreglass gliders must be white, period, for anti-UV reasons (ToryBoy, I presume that you have a D.Phil. in FRP engineering?
). But I like david viewing's idea of some sort of reflector panels ... that might help, and probably wouldn't cost much in terms of dollars or performance.
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MLS-12D and others,
The reason for the white colour is not so much for UV protection, but because coloued gel-coat gets very very hot in direct sunlight. This could breakdown the internal structure of the FRP components (wings, fus, etc). The big problem is that this damage is not visible until it is too late.
Newer GA and commercial aircraft that make extensive use of FRP will also be all white for exactly this reason.
Some gliders have had the wing tips, nose and part of the rudder painted in bright colours - in areas outside those considered critical or high load. In practice, they make absolutely no difference to visibility.
I would be interested to see someone research using the reflective tape used in marine foul weather clothing. This could be set into the gel-coat and achieve a good finish. As it reflects light, heat build up should not be a problem.
From a different perspective, when flying in airspace designated for see and avoid, flying an aircraft with a limited view could be perceived as the problem.
Increasing the amount of controlled airspace is not the answer. If you reduce the area available uncontrolled, you just increase the density of aircraft, increasing the risk of collision, you also increase the risk of airspace infringements which is bad for everyone.
The reason for the white colour is not so much for UV protection, but because coloued gel-coat gets very very hot in direct sunlight. This could breakdown the internal structure of the FRP components (wings, fus, etc). The big problem is that this damage is not visible until it is too late.
Newer GA and commercial aircraft that make extensive use of FRP will also be all white for exactly this reason.
Some gliders have had the wing tips, nose and part of the rudder painted in bright colours - in areas outside those considered critical or high load. In practice, they make absolutely no difference to visibility.
I would be interested to see someone research using the reflective tape used in marine foul weather clothing. This could be set into the gel-coat and achieve a good finish. As it reflects light, heat build up should not be a problem.
From a different perspective, when flying in airspace designated for see and avoid, flying an aircraft with a limited view could be perceived as the problem.
Increasing the amount of controlled airspace is not the answer. If you reduce the area available uncontrolled, you just increase the density of aircraft, increasing the risk of collision, you also increase the risk of airspace infringements which is bad for everyone.
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MLS12D
As does someone from Canada commenting on UK issues.
WNE
Controlled airspace is not a result of GA lobbying, but pressure from the commercial lobby. Have you considered the implications of the proposed Stansted expansion?
However, if and when the airspace is reduced again, glider pilots may well come under pressure to carry x-ponders etc.
Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective
WNE
Controlled airspace is not a result of GA lobbying, but pressure from the commercial lobby. Have you considered the implications of the proposed Stansted expansion?
However, if and when the airspace is reduced again, glider pilots may well come under pressure to carry x-ponders etc.
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Hi Vis Panels
The Royal Air Force is currently experimenting with orange dayglo panels at two spanwise locations (each panel approx 1m square) on the wings of its glider fleet (as used by the Air Training Corps). I have been flying in and around these aircraft with these panels for a while and in my opinion they do make it easier to spot white aircraft in some ways. What they do not do is make a gliders front or rear profile any larger which, when talking about spotting gliders from a distance is really the problem! Maybe a reflective foil type material along the leading edges of the wings might make a significant difference with little or no loss in aircraft performance.
The whole idea of gliders flying in controlled airspace is, in my opinion a dubious one - they just do not have the freedom to do what they are told. How can we get into a situation where a controllers actions force a glider into a field with the corresponding increased safety risks. At present I think that the vast majority of glider pilots give radio controlled airspace a wide berth and regardless of any future airspace restrictions thats the way it will stay for a long time.
The whole idea of gliders flying in controlled airspace is, in my opinion a dubious one - they just do not have the freedom to do what they are told. How can we get into a situation where a controllers actions force a glider into a field with the corresponding increased safety risks. At present I think that the vast majority of glider pilots give radio controlled airspace a wide berth and regardless of any future airspace restrictions thats the way it will stay for a long time.
Sink The Pink
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No MLS-12D, I don't have a D.Phil in FRP engineering but I have spent several weeks looking into this for someone with the help of someone far more informed and far less opinionated than yourself.
You said yourself that you've never seen a glider whilst flying powered a/c.
I rest my case
You said yourself that you've never seen a glider whilst flying powered a/c.
I rest my case
Last edited by ToryBoy; 5th Dec 2003 at 15:57.
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I am on the staff of an ATC Gliding School (winch-launched) in Kirknewton and have to say that the Dayglo panels assist to some extent in seeing a glider that is within (say) 700m, dependant upon aspect angle. If the glider is over that sort of distance, I can often see the glider outline, but cannot detect the Dayglo panels. The panels appear to be more visible when the sky is overcast and grey, rather than light and sunny with scattered fluffy Cu clouds!
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Rich H
I understand your comments about gliders and controlled airspace - in fact, I'm not suggesting that gliders should fly in it, but as uncontrolled airspace is eroded, I can see the pressure for gliders to carry x-ponders or strobes building etc.
It's a shame, but like the pistol shooters who basically lost their sport a few years ago, sometimes these things are imposed on communities for the 'public good.'
I understand your comments about gliders and controlled airspace - in fact, I'm not suggesting that gliders should fly in it, but as uncontrolled airspace is eroded, I can see the pressure for gliders to carry x-ponders or strobes building etc.
It's a shame, but like the pistol shooters who basically lost their sport a few years ago, sometimes these things are imposed on communities for the 'public good.'
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I think a lot of gliders pilots wouldn't mind having a transponder if they could have one, but the kind they need are just now getting available and still too expensive. For one it's a weight problem, then the matter of where to put it... there isn't much room left on the panel.... then there's the problem of the electrical connection.... the normal glider battery would just die out too soon. If these problems were already solved, then I'm sure they would already be required! So, let's just wait until the proper equipment gets available.
As to balloons... they, too, they are not required yet. Here there is also the electrical problem... without a motor, no electricity!!
I always say, if everyone would abide by the rules (restrictions) already in effect, then we wouldn't need new ones! But when you hear about some idiot glider flyer circling above Frankfurt airport within airspace "C" (he was seen by an Airbus... of course ATC couldn't see him), then no wonder we get more and more restrictions!!
Westy
As to balloons... they, too, they are not required yet. Here there is also the electrical problem... without a motor, no electricity!!
I always say, if everyone would abide by the rules (restrictions) already in effect, then we wouldn't need new ones! But when you hear about some idiot glider flyer circling above Frankfurt airport within airspace "C" (he was seen by an Airbus... of course ATC couldn't see him), then no wonder we get more and more restrictions!!
Westy
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To the unopinionated ToryBoy 
Painting GRP structures doesn't help visibility. There have been a couple of studies published in Sailplane and Gliding done with motor gliders, and they found that there was no significant improvement by adding reflective panels. In fact at some angles it made things worse as the colours broke up the outline.
I would also ask the engine followers how many of you have your strobes on all the time? Does it actually make you that much more obvious on a bright day?
Cheers
John
Painting GRP structures doesn't help visibility. There have been a couple of studies published in Sailplane and Gliding done with motor gliders, and they found that there was no significant improvement by adding reflective panels. In fact at some angles it made things worse as the colours broke up the outline.
I would also ask the engine followers how many of you have your strobes on all the time? Does it actually make you that much more obvious on a bright day?
Cheers
John
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Engineless John
I certainly use strobes all the time when airborne, not least because it helps birds to see and avoid - as such its pretty basic airmanship for the powered community.
I also use landing lights in the circuit, on the basis that it may not or may not help, but it certainly does not do any harm.
I certainly use strobes all the time when airborne, not least because it helps birds to see and avoid - as such its pretty basic airmanship for the powered community.
I also use landing lights in the circuit, on the basis that it may not or may not help, but it certainly does not do any harm.
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Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective
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As does someone from Canada commenting on UK issues.
Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As does someone from Canada commenting on UK issues.
The reason for the white colour is not so much for UV protection, but because coloured gel-coat gets very very hot in direct sunlight. This could breakdown the internal structure of the FRP components (wings, fus, etc). The big problem is that this damage is not visible until it is too late.
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MLS-12D
It is not a UK only forum nor is it a forum that denies any constituency a view, so please think about that the next time you decide to discriminate.
This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots, so your comment was way out of line.
It is not a UK only forum nor is it a forum that denies any constituency a view, so please think about that the next time you decide to discriminate.
This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots, so your comment was way out of line.