Gliders and avoiding them !
 

T'other day I went orf to do a solo navex, departing the overhead from Kemble I decided to dog-leg round Aston Down, noted for it's heaving gliding activity, whilst keeping a SHARP lookout.

Having left Aston Down astern, I was in the clear thought I, oh no, a glider appeared off to my left (having flown overhead me I presume) and then promptly elected to turn right in front of me !

I hung a right, banged the power in and executed a climbing turn to the right, pretty pronto!! Now I know we're supposed to give way to gliders, but c'mon guys, if I had been looking the other way for just a split second, I reckon I would have had a good chance of 'buying the farm'.

Surely avoidance is a 2-way street ! :confused:

That's of course assuming he saw you :(

Maybe he didn't :sad:

VFR,

It very much is!

I am pretty sure that this gliderdriver did not think: 'Let's bank right and I have right of way over the power driver so I will be fine!'

More than likely he did not see you. Especially from the angle you describe it will be difficult to see anything in which is beyond your leading edge.

If he did indeed come from your overhead initially it makes it a bit more difficult to appreciate that he was not aware of you but it does happen to all of us that we miss something.

A salutory lesson in how little we actually see despite keeping a sharp look out can be had by flying a machine with TCAS in the open FIR. Despite 'knowing' (as in bearing and distance) where to look you it can be a devil's job to spot the bogey!.

And before any of your wisecracks pipes up; I do have 20/20 vision, sometimes even without hindsight!

:D

FD

2 gliders out of Dunstable have just flown in to each other close to Lasham. Both gliders crashed. The pilots had parachutes and used them. I don't expect you had a parachute?

Gliders are particularly hard to see because they are white (the RAF has determined that black is best for conspicuity).

I believe they are white to limit weakeneing of the structure caused by exposure to sunlight (UV, specifically, I think).

SSD

Gliders can be found a long way from gliding sites. Flights of over 200 miles are not uncommon. Gliders will spend a lot of time circling under cumulus clouds as this is where the thermals are usually found. Avoid these or keep a good look out when flying under them could be a start.

Quite so. On balance I like having the Avidyne tell me what's out there, but sometimes I feel that the former blissful ignorance makes for more relaxing trips!

It is surprising and worrying how many aircraft you can't see even when TCAS is showing you just where to look.

I would love to have TCAS. Unfortunately, for the £15k+installation one only sees the planes who have a working transponder. And if they are in Mode A only, one gets lots of reports of mostly-low-down traffic which won't bother anyone flying at say 4000ft. There is an awful lot of traffic in the lowest 2000ft; my guess is that most GA traffic, and probably the majority of XP-less planes (excl. gliders), are down there.

One needs to fly under an RIS and hear numerous reports of "unknown level" contacts, to realise there are many planes (WITH normal electrical systems) which either don't have a working XP, don't have it turned on by accident, or don't have it turned on deliberately.

Without compulsory Mode C, TAS/TCAS will only ever help a bit; it won't reduce the need for a lookout, especially as I suspect that those without a working XP are also a lot more likely to be out of radio contact (by choice).

And gliders are the least likely to carry an XP...

I've had a few close encounters with gliders too lately.

Not a lot one can do....

IO540,

Yes, you're quite right about being dependent on other aircraft having transponders. Actually, not just having them but turning them on - I pass quite a few PA28s and the like which presumably have transponders fitted but don't show up on screen .

This is one of my main worries about GA TCAS; it has the potential to lull you into a false sense of security in that it's easy to start to assume that it'll tell you about everything that's out there. The fact that it tells you about so much traffic you wouldn't otherwise have been aware of only reinforces this impression, but it's a potentially dangerous one.

Because I fly microlights as well I'm quite aware that the majority of my lightweight friends don't have a transponder and therefore won't show up, but even so it is very easy to start to rely on that nice colourful TCAS screen.

Who has transponders ... ?
 

Some time ago I heard a conversation between a control tower and a passing balloon ... the balloon asked what he should squawk, and the controller was having great difficulty replying "not to bother because I don't have SSR, and anyway I can see you out the window" without collapsing with the giggles!

That was a while back. Is it usual for balloons to carry transponders these days?

I don't know about is it usual, but if EASA has its way it will become so within a year or two. The compulsory fitment and use of Mode S transponders for all (sic) flying machines is one that is currently exercising the collective minds of the representative bodies. Personally I thought it was like requiring pushbikes to be fitted with tachographs, but having seen this thread I'm not quite so sure.

What happened to the pilots who think look out is the answer to mid air avoidance?

None have appeared on the thread yet, but they will.

Sorry bluskis, didn't see you there.

VFR - just past Aston Down is Nympsfield (another popular gliding site). This week they were hosting a large competition event and, at times, the gliders were so thick you couldn't count them! On wednesday they were flying a 200km course (out and return) so they were spread over a wide area of countryside.......

bluskis,

Pointing out that the Mk I eyeball is unfortunately not a 100% effective means of avoiding collisions is not the same as suggesting that it's not the best option that most of us have most of the time.

Don't expect just to see gliders over a gliding site. During a typical 9 day competition there will be over 60 gliders flying tasks from 150km to over 500kms,racing round. From 1 glider in a thermal to over 30 in a gaggle, cruising from 60kts to 100kts. All comp pilots wear parachutes & when thermaling in a gaggle the risk of collision is HIGH.

Fly Sim

Can't argue with that, but it is better if we don't rely on them 100% and try and use other resources.

I wonder how much look out a glider pilot does when he is concentrating on the rate of climb indicator and circling at the same time.

Having been involved in the open national comps at Lasham a couple of weeks ago where we were set tasks over 650kms the areas of countryside covered with bloody hard to see gliders can be pretty staggering.
As to the level of lookout kept by glider drivers, it's actually very high, especially in thermals.
When you are in a gaggle with up to 40 other gliders all spinning in their own variations of a circle and vertical separation in the tens of feet between you and the next 750kg of plastic doing 55kts self preservation dictates that you activley participate in the 3D version of "asteroids" you find yourself in.
The VSI main output is audio, the analouge display is there really just for decoration.
Nav in a staright line is handled pretty much automatically by computers these days so that doesn't take much "head down" to follow.
We are _always_ looking for other gliders / ac you literally have a sore neck after a 6-8 hour comp flight.

Do have to agree that we are _very_ difficult to see from any distance away.

Don't know how to improve that situation though.

"Paint the f*****g things black instead of white" has been suggested. (Not having seen a black glider myself I can't personally judge whether this would work for me.)

Perhaps gliders could be equipped with a capacitance driven high intensity flash light, energised from an airflow driven rotor.

Light doesn't take much energy to produce, so should it not inhibit performance noticebly, and light flashes are very attention seeking.

Alternatively there are those joggy red flashy lamps cyclists sometimes use on a rainy November night.