Red Arrows display cancelled due to airspace infringement (merged)
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Comptons NDB has been U/S for ages hasn't it.....at least I remember reading a Notam about it ages ago, then remembering this Notam a couple of weeks ago when I was trying to track the NDB.....
Prehaps more people would heed Notams if there was such as thing as being able to speak to a pre-flight briefer [without having to apply for an overdraft first] ? Notams are very difficult to trawl through, and I must admit I didn't see the Sea Harrier display at Weymouth last Wednesday Notamed at all, and I deliberately looked for it beforehand [although the Arrows were there though judging by the number of light aircraft in the vicinity just before the display, I wonder how many people actually do read Notams?]
EA
Prehaps more people would heed Notams if there was such as thing as being able to speak to a pre-flight briefer [without having to apply for an overdraft first] ? Notams are very difficult to trawl through, and I must admit I didn't see the Sea Harrier display at Weymouth last Wednesday Notamed at all, and I deliberately looked for it beforehand [although the Arrows were there though judging by the number of light aircraft in the vicinity just before the display, I wonder how many people actually do read Notams?]
EA
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Temporarily reserved airspace is also notified in AICs, so even if the pilots in this incident had problems with the NOTAM system, they did read the AICs... didn't they?
MC.
MC.
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I wonder how many people read the NOTAMs and still don't get it? Well some of us try but........
Aberdeen to Kemble - 31 pages of almost completely useless NOTAMS. Tucked away in all that crap a couple of displays and TRAs. The good thing? two pilots and plenty of time to read through it all. But this is not the way to do anything in the 21st century.
NOTAMS ae supposed to be useful and accessible. I know some people have put in huge personal efforts to sort out the shambles that the AIS created. My sincere thanks to them. But 31 pages of which possibly 2 were in anyway relevant to our flight?????
And yes I used the narrow route option, yes I tried to filter. The end result is we still have information being disseminated in the same manner as in 1950. All we have is a lot of our personal hardware ( and costs) used to do that.
What we need is a sensible website that gives us a graphical output - you could browse it quickly online and then go.
Did I assimulate all the items on the 31 pages correctly - of course not, should I have been looking out of the window instead of reading this stuff - of course I should.
So long as the AIS insist on Stone Age presentation of mostly irelevant information which is supposed to aimed at PPLs there but for the grace of god go you and I.
Aberdeen to Kemble - 31 pages of almost completely useless NOTAMS. Tucked away in all that crap a couple of displays and TRAs. The good thing? two pilots and plenty of time to read through it all. But this is not the way to do anything in the 21st century.
NOTAMS ae supposed to be useful and accessible. I know some people have put in huge personal efforts to sort out the shambles that the AIS created. My sincere thanks to them. But 31 pages of which possibly 2 were in anyway relevant to our flight?????
And yes I used the narrow route option, yes I tried to filter. The end result is we still have information being disseminated in the same manner as in 1950. All we have is a lot of our personal hardware ( and costs) used to do that.
What we need is a sensible website that gives us a graphical output - you could browse it quickly online and then go.
Did I assimulate all the items on the 31 pages correctly - of course not, should I have been looking out of the window instead of reading this stuff - of course I should.
So long as the AIS insist on Stone Age presentation of mostly irelevant information which is supposed to aimed at PPLs there but for the grace of god go you and I.
Absolutely no excuse for this infringement, in my opinion, and I hope the CAA through the book at the culprits.
Never mind reading the NOTAMS, what about calling the FreePhone Royal Flights Number which also includes Restriction of Flying Info when the Red Arrows are operating. I rang the number before I went flying yesterday and the information was clearly on the recording. How often is anyone not near a phone these days?!
Never mind reading the NOTAMS, what about calling the FreePhone Royal Flights Number which also includes Restriction of Flying Info when the Red Arrows are operating. I rang the number before I went flying yesterday and the information was clearly on the recording. How often is anyone not near a phone these days?!
What's the number again?
I had it but lost it when changing mobile phones...
thanks
Russell
Russell's half scale P47
I had it but lost it when changing mobile phones...
thanks
Russell
Russell's half scale P47
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I don't think there is a viable excuse for glider (or microlite) pilots to not read NOTAM data before going on a cross country flight. It can be done relatively easily once one is used to the system, much improved through Mike Cross's and others' efforts, though still far from perfect, and yes, the graphical data would be a big help.
I pull a list of NOTAM's (OK, PIB, to be pedantic) using Narrow Route option for my gliding club each flying day. It runs to about 2-3 pages worth (not the 31 pages I have heard of others getting, including a mention on the other thread started about this Red Arrows infringement). I then filter out warnings about Iraq flights, unusable comms and nav things etc., bird of prey training. I am left with a list about 1/2 to 1 page long - e.g. today there are 5 things worth noting in Suffolk and Norfolk.
This process takes about 5-10 minutes.
I don't look at AIC's - I no longer am able to have paper ones sent to me, apparently (they just stopped coming years ago) and no way am I going to trawl through every AIC on the AIS website, even if I could find them, to see what is a daily nav warning - that's not the right place for such data.
My standard narrow route to cover a decent local gliding area is Cambridge to Great Yarmouth (ECSC-ECSD), 40 miles wide, FL 40. It picked up an event in Hornchurch, Essex, today, among other things.
On a good gliding day with long distances possible to the North for instance, I put in a diversion to Sheffield or somewhere like that. (From my club, all long flights tend to be northerly.)
The output from all this is posted up in our briefing room for any local glider pilot to see. Any other gliding club could do the same - or indeed any individual with internet access (not all have).
Chris N.
I pull a list of NOTAM's (OK, PIB, to be pedantic) using Narrow Route option for my gliding club each flying day. It runs to about 2-3 pages worth (not the 31 pages I have heard of others getting, including a mention on the other thread started about this Red Arrows infringement). I then filter out warnings about Iraq flights, unusable comms and nav things etc., bird of prey training. I am left with a list about 1/2 to 1 page long - e.g. today there are 5 things worth noting in Suffolk and Norfolk.
This process takes about 5-10 minutes.
I don't look at AIC's - I no longer am able to have paper ones sent to me, apparently (they just stopped coming years ago) and no way am I going to trawl through every AIC on the AIS website, even if I could find them, to see what is a daily nav warning - that's not the right place for such data.
My standard narrow route to cover a decent local gliding area is Cambridge to Great Yarmouth (ECSC-ECSD), 40 miles wide, FL 40. It picked up an event in Hornchurch, Essex, today, among other things.
On a good gliding day with long distances possible to the North for instance, I put in a diversion to Sheffield or somewhere like that. (From my club, all long flights tend to be northerly.)
The output from all this is posted up in our briefing room for any local glider pilot to see. Any other gliding club could do the same - or indeed any individual with internet access (not all have).
Chris N.
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For the first time in ages I'm perfectly satisfied with the NOTAM system - the last couple of narrow route briefings I've used were short, concise and 95% relevant. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's much much better.
BUT - if you end up with pages of cr@p about Brest control and the Welshpool NDB then why not check when you are talking to someone en-route? I had my skills test very shortly after the new system became mandatory and after half an hour myself, my examiner and the CFI could not be sure that we had spotted all the important NOTAMs (IIRC there were over 80 pages in what seems to be random order). We just asked every station that we talked to if there was anything we should know about - there was, a gliding competition from Lasham to Devizes (we were going to fly through the middle of it. It was NOTAMed but we missed it) and Farnborough were happy to tell us about it.
There are ways around the poor availability of NOTAMs, always have been. Better sorting, graphical displays of NOTAMs etc. may help some people, but the real problem is people making no effort at all to check their route is clear and then wandering around no talking to anyone (apart from their mate on 123.45
). Maybe the best thing would be for the CAA to recommend 'extensive retraining' for a few people, to make the rest of us try harder...
BUT - if you end up with pages of cr@p about Brest control and the Welshpool NDB then why not check when you are talking to someone en-route? I had my skills test very shortly after the new system became mandatory and after half an hour myself, my examiner and the CFI could not be sure that we had spotted all the important NOTAMs (IIRC there were over 80 pages in what seems to be random order). We just asked every station that we talked to if there was anything we should know about - there was, a gliding competition from Lasham to Devizes (we were going to fly through the middle of it. It was NOTAMed but we missed it) and Farnborough were happy to tell us about it.
There are ways around the poor availability of NOTAMs, always have been. Better sorting, graphical displays of NOTAMs etc. may help some people, but the real problem is people making no effort at all to check their route is clear and then wandering around no talking to anyone (apart from their mate on 123.45
). Maybe the best thing would be for the CAA to recommend 'extensive retraining' for a few people, to make the rest of us try harder...
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I then filter out warnings about Iraq flights
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I must confess to a certain sympathy for the glider pilot and a feeling that a contributory factor to his infrimgement might be the format of the data available to him
Airmanship 0/10
PS the number is 0500 354802
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Evo, I forgot to select VFR only this morning. I usually get it right, having read that tip before on PPRuNe. Thanks for the reminder.
I don't call the 0500 number - that is done by a "duty pilot" as part of a daily checklist at my gliding club. (We also have other duties including daily calls to Essex Radar to alert them to start and finish of gliding, as required by a Letter of Agreement, mandated by our CAA permission to winch launch.)
Chris N.
I don't call the 0500 number - that is done by a "duty pilot" as part of a daily checklist at my gliding club. (We also have other duties including daily calls to Essex Radar to alert them to start and finish of gliding, as required by a Letter of Agreement, mandated by our CAA permission to winch launch.)
Chris N.
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A couple of things.
I flew from Blackbushe to the Bembridge fly in yesterday. Checked the Notam's & the Cowes event + others near route were clear to see. Cowes was mentioned more than once. But did anything actually happen there? I know the weather wasn't good for aero's most of the time, but I never saw (or heard on Solent) anything there.
Also, when I set off (11:50), the Farnborough controler was having to spend all her time routing a guy out of the Londonm TMA. It was very obvious that he was interfering with Heathrow movements.
Not only was he interupting Heathrow, but the Farnborough controler was too busy with him to even talk to most other traffic or offer an FIS. All this at a time when there was a lot of traffic & a cloud base of >2000'
Top marks to her though in a very serious situation.
The last thing I heard her say to him was an advisory that he'll be reported.
I flew from Blackbushe to the Bembridge fly in yesterday. Checked the Notam's & the Cowes event + others near route were clear to see. Cowes was mentioned more than once. But did anything actually happen there? I know the weather wasn't good for aero's most of the time, but I never saw (or heard on Solent) anything there.
Also, when I set off (11:50), the Farnborough controler was having to spend all her time routing a guy out of the Londonm TMA. It was very obvious that he was interfering with Heathrow movements.
Not only was he interupting Heathrow, but the Farnborough controler was too busy with him to even talk to most other traffic or offer an FIS. All this at a time when there was a lot of traffic & a cloud base of >2000'
Top marks to her though in a very serious situation.
The last thing I heard her say to him was an advisory that he'll be reported.
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the Farnborough controler was having to spend all her time routing a guy out of the Londonm TMA. It was very obvious that he was interfering with Heathrow movements.
(Hasten to add - absolutely no criticism of the controller who did an excellent job, just wondering, is all)
SD
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I chatted to the CAA Air Display inspector who was at Elvington. He said the RAF are always keen to have infringements investigated in ‘a most thorough way’. 2 fixed wing aircraft, both high-wing Cessnas, one microlight and a glider, all happened to be in the Red Arrows TRA as they ran in to display. Red 1 spotted all of them as he led the formation past and called a halt to the display, which he seemed to agree with as the safest option open to the Arrows (I agree!). Obviously, quite a few people may be getting an interview without tea & biccies this week…
There’s absolutely no excuse for this one. Poor nav, poor airmanship, maybe poor use of GPS and failing to read the NOTAMs are almost certainly the causes.
The GA community got a VERY bad name yesterday at Elvington, all because of a few f*ckwits.
There’s absolutely no excuse for this one. Poor nav, poor airmanship, maybe poor use of GPS and failing to read the NOTAMs are almost certainly the causes.
The GA community got a VERY bad name yesterday at Elvington, all because of a few f*ckwits.
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I dont think many people do read NOTAMS and that includes instructors. Maybe it is because very few people understand all the abbreviations. As Instructors may not have been trained to read NOTAMS they may not feel comfortable trying to teach a PPL student how to read them which leaves contientious pilots to teach themselves. Do airline pilots have to read NOTAMS or is that the job of the ops person?
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The crux of the issue is that the vast majority of commercial pilots have some level of operational support. So the NOTAMS AICs etc pretty much come ready for consumption.
As a PPL you used to have 40-ish pages of the old A8 briefing to read through - which covered the whole of the UK and was in more of less lattitude order.
Now you need a PC, internet connection and still have to read through a good deal of irrelevant verbiage - and this 'service' is supposedly aimed directly at our requirements!!!!!
It can be a great deal easier. All this has been thrashed out in this and outer fora. Perhaps it needs our flying lawyer to defend some of these people - showing just how poor these arrangements are?
As a PPL you used to have 40-ish pages of the old A8 briefing to read through - which covered the whole of the UK and was in more of less lattitude order.
Now you need a PC, internet connection and still have to read through a good deal of irrelevant verbiage - and this 'service' is supposedly aimed directly at our requirements!!!!!
It can be a great deal easier. All this has been thrashed out in this and outer fora. Perhaps it needs our flying lawyer to defend some of these people - showing just how poor these arrangements are?
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I dont think many people do read NOTAMS and that includes instructors. Maybe it is because very few people understand all the abbreviations. As Instructors may not have been trained to read NOTAMS they may not feel comfortable trying to teach a PPL student how to read them which leaves contientious pilots to teach themselves.
Maybe many people can get away with it for a long time without anything going wrong, but if one day you go bust a TRA because you don't know it is there then you deserve everything you get.
As for Instructors, if they cannot understand NOTAMs and explain them then they shouldn't be instructing!
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Perhaps it needs our flying lawyer to defend some of these people - showing just how poor these arrangements are?
You're having a laugh, right?
Let's picture the courtroom drama unfolding....
Prosecution: "So you were, were you not, PIC of an aircraft on the afternoon of Sunday 24th August near the Elvington Aerodrome?"
Pilot: "Erm, yes..."
Prosecution: "And you were aware, were you not, that a temporary restricted area, a 'TRA', was in force around that area at the material time?"
DOH!
Pilot: "No. The NOTAM briefing system is rubbish, the lack of a graphical output is hopeless, and it is just too many pages of irrelevant rubbish to wade through I was not aware of the TRA"
Prosecution (in his most incredulous/indignant tone): "So, in other words, you were not in receipt of all the information necessary for the safe conduct of a flight as required by the Air Navigation Order!"
Prosecution, continuing his indignation: "Red Arrows flights/Royal Flights/TRAs all these can be ascertained from a free phone call!! You are aware of this facility are you not?"
Pilot: "Um, err"
Prosecution: "So you didn't check the AIS provided pre-flight "NOTAM" briefing, you didn't call the free-call number, and you chose to speak to no-one enroute notwithstanding the fact that a crowd of 30,000+ at a usually quiet aerodrome may have been noticeable from the air!!"
Pilot: "Can I change my plea?"
Prosecution: "The prosecution rests, m'lud... And we would seek the maximum penalty available, sir... "
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The tools are not perfect, but they are getting much better.
But if you don't read them it doesn't matter how good the output is.
You're having a laugh, right?
Let's picture the courtroom drama unfolding....
Prosecution: "So you were, were you not, PIC of an aircraft on the afternoon of Sunday 24th August near the Elvington Aerodrome?"
Pilot: "Erm, yes..."
Prosecution: "And you were aware, were you not, that a temporary restricted area, a 'TRA', was in force around that area at the material time?"
DOH!
Pilot: "No. The NOTAM briefing system is rubbish, the lack of a graphical output is hopeless, and it is just too many pages of irrelevant rubbish to wade through I was not aware of the TRA"
Prosecution (in his most incredulous/indignant tone): "So, in other words, you were not in receipt of all the information necessary for the safe conduct of a flight as required by the Air Navigation Order!"
Prosecution, continuing his indignation: "Red Arrows flights/Royal Flights/TRAs all these can be ascertained from a free phone call!! You are aware of this facility are you not?"
Pilot: "Um, err"
Prosecution: "So you didn't check the AIS provided pre-flight "NOTAM" briefing, you didn't call the free-call number, and you chose to speak to no-one enroute notwithstanding the fact that a crowd of 30,000+ at a usually quiet aerodrome may have been noticeable from the air!!"
Pilot: "Can I change my plea?"
Prosecution: "The prosecution rests, m'lud... And we would seek the maximum penalty available, sir... "
------------------------------------------
The tools are not perfect, but they are getting much better.
But if you don't read them it doesn't matter how good the output is.
The Original Whirly
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I dont think many people do read NOTAMS and that includes instructors. Maybe it is because very few people understand all the abbreviations. As Instructors may not have been trained to read NOTAMS they may not feel comfortable trying to teach a PPL student how to read them which leaves contientious pilots to teach themselves.
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I really hope this isn't true.
I dont think many people do read NOTAMS and that includes instructors. Maybe it is because very few people understand all the abbreviations. As Instructors may not have been trained to read NOTAMS they may not feel comfortable trying to teach a PPL student how to read them which leaves contientious pilots to teach themselves.
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I really hope this isn't true.
Now, of course by the time I came to do my instructors course no-one mentioned NOTAMS, because I'd been using them for years, hadn't I? Well, yes, actually I had. But I well might not have been, under those circumstances.
So I rather think HelenD's statement might be true. And I do find myself wondering how many people are reading this, keeping quiet, and thinking: "There but for the Grace of God..."
Now don't go and flame me; I'm just stating what I think may be the case. Shooting the messenger will help no-one.
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Just got back from covering Fire+Rescue at Elvington.
I've got to admit we didn't hear anything about Cessna's but there was a lot of talk about the microlight and a few people mentioned the glider. Word on the street is that the microlight pilot is to be fined £2000 by the CAA and be grounded for a while however I personally don't believe this rumour, i can't believe the CAA would dish out a penalty so quickly.
I have heard however that the air show organisers are planning to sue the pilot and knowing what they are like they probably will!
The Red Arrows did do a superb display today (along with the rest of the aircraft) but with the weather not being as good today as it was yesterday it would have been nice to see the full display.
CBK
I've got to admit we didn't hear anything about Cessna's but there was a lot of talk about the microlight and a few people mentioned the glider. Word on the street is that the microlight pilot is to be fined £2000 by the CAA and be grounded for a while however I personally don't believe this rumour, i can't believe the CAA would dish out a penalty so quickly.
I have heard however that the air show organisers are planning to sue the pilot and knowing what they are like they probably will!
The Red Arrows did do a superb display today (along with the rest of the aircraft) but with the weather not being as good today as it was yesterday it would have been nice to see the full display.
CBK