Sorry, you're too late...

[bealine]

Hi Distant Rumble

It is not through choice that we leave late passengers behind, it is the sad fact that, security aside, airlines have been "stuffed" by certain late passengers, resulting in loss of revenue.

Prior to Sept 11th and the clampdown on Have - A - Go pax, here are some exploits:

1. E-Tickets that haven't been paid for
2. Fraudulent use of revalidation stickers to avoid rebooking charge
3. Fraudulent use of "back to back" tickets
4. Fraudulent use of tickets for class to which passenger not entitled.
5. Knowingly travelling with incorrect/expired passport/visa and deliberately attempting to avoid detection.

etc. etc.

Another factor is that, on busy flights, at Flight Closure, Standby Passengers are on-loaded. It may be, therefore, that when you arrive at the airport after closure time, that there are physically no seats available on the aircraft and I am certain that we're not going to offload someone who has been waiting patiently for onloading, in order to accept someone who can't be bothered to get up in the morning!

The situation with BA has been relaxed a little to allow certain "late runners" at own risk - but ONLY with no baggage and
1. First Class or Club (Business Class) passengers booked and holding bona fide commercial tickets for the appropriate class OR

2. BA Executive Club Permier Card or Gold Card holders (Not any other Frequent Flyer scheme)

3. In any event, ONLY if the check-in agent is 100% certain that the passenger is physically fit and able to reach the Gate by Scheduled Time -40 minutes (Long Haul) or -20 minutes (Short Haul) AND only if the Gate Team and Dispatcher agree acceptance.

(At LGW last summer, we did have a gentleman collapse with a massive coronary thrombosis after trying to run to the gate and, unfortunately, he was dead on arrival later at the East Surrey Hospital. Had we refused him, his family may still be enjoying his company - the Business Meeting could have been rescheduled anyway! )

There are many factors behind our reasons for not accepting late passengers and, let's face it, you, in your capacity as the Business Traveller, have told us until you're blue in the face that punctuality is your main concern!



You're quite right - it works two ways!!!

[AOG007]

Bealine,

Could not have put it better myself,

Passengers, get there on time!

These are what I gather to be your primary factors when attempting to reach an Airport on time

1) Your Car works, and you know your way to the airport
2) Your train leaves you with plenty of time for any problems
3) Your taxi is again booked to ensure you arrive in plenty of time
4) Your wife/husband/friend is sure to be able to take you to the airport, and again leaving you with plenty of time to check-in.

The airline has a few more things to worry about, of which have already been mentioned so I shall not bore us all with a repeat.

ItS amazing that with all the traffic congestion around some of the UK's major airports, a large majority of staff are always there ontime. When was the last time you seen a thread on here complaining of consistantly late departures because the Captain/ First Officer / Purser / Crew Member / Engineer / ATC Controller, etc etc.......... was late for work due to some weak excuse. My car broke down, there was an accident on the M25, or the train was cancelled.

If the staff can be there ontime, so should the passengers. Excuses? We've heard them all, and none of them wash. Get there ontime! It that simple. I do! And I have to stand around waiting to be onloaded, but I have not missed a flight yet because I was late. Its not hard.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES, AND GET YOUR SHIP IN ORDER.

RANT ENDS!

[FlapsOne]

DR

We cannot legitimately cal 'ready' if the airbridge is still attached to the aircraft.

At AMS for eg. you must pushback within 2 mins of clearance or that clearance WILL BE CANCELLED. Hard rules, I know but it's fact.

Tell us how to get round these problems if you have an answer but please don't just say it should be a 2-way street when, from our side, it's often a one-way cul-e-sac.

WE WANT TO HELP BUT OFTEN WE CANNOT!!!!

[DistantRumble]

"When was the last time you seen a thread on here complaining of consistantly late departures because the Captain/ First Officer / Purser / Crew Member / Engineer / ATC Controller, etc etc.......... was late for work due to some weak excuse. My car broke down, there was an accident on the M25, or the train was cancelled" - Agreed.

Or the inbound flight was late ? -> ?? Several threads about that ...

I've missed one flight due to lateness in 27 years.
DUB-LBA (27 minutes late at checkin) and Aer Lingus were kind enough to rebook me to Newcastle (their next flight out to N. England) and I drove down to Leeds and made my meeting.

NOTE : I AM NOT GETTING AT FLIGHT CREW. These are system-wide complaints. The later you are the later you get off work or alternatively you're stuck away from home base out of duty hours ->> you have an interest in being on time too

BeaLines comments are interesting.. especially the comments about ticketing and HAG restrictions (a bit elitist maybe ? )


Anyway gang - One thing I want to make clear to everyone.
Lack of information is the worst offence of all.

I get annoyed because I don't know a lot of the stuff Pilots and controllers know. In addition we also know that it is easy for ground staff to give 'get-rid-of-you-quick' reasons for delays that refer to things you cannot check. Therefore you are an angry mushroom (kept in the dark and fed BS).

By far the best thing I ever saw to counteract this was on UA longhaul who allow you to listen to the pilot's RT on your headphones.

E.g. sitting at KDEN in a 777 ->SFO waiting for 45 mins. I knew exactly why because I'd listened to the RT .

Thanks for the info. from AMS. No one ever told me that.

I suppose this IS why this forum is called SLF

The thread's getting plenty of views. Hope it's arousing some interest.

[bealine]

Hi Distant Rumble

I heartily agree with you about getting frustrated at not being told the truth about delays.

However, on a light hearted note, the following exchange took place at Laker Airways:

Passenger (for 6th or 7th time) "Look - can you tell me EXACTLY what's wrong with the aircraft?"

Check In Agent (confidentially) " Okay, but I don't want everyone to hear. Come closer!"

Check In Agent whispers "Between you and me, the engineers think it's one of the BRT's!"

Passenger (knowingly) "Ahah! I thought it might be!"

2nd Check In Agent "What the hell's a BRT?"

Check In Agent " Oh that! BRT - Big Round Thing - you know, the Engine!!!"

[ohitsmonday]

I thought civil aviation was a service industry. Remember pax pay all our wages.
I quite agree that late pax at c/in (or any for that matter) should not delay flights, but at MOST UK airports you can get from c/in to the gate in just a few minutes (queues at security at peak times aside).
The process is simple
Check with gate/dispatcher as to feasability of pax arriving at gate before a/c closure (at -30 mins most flights haven't started or have only just started boarding)
Pax given a hand written boarding card with all normal p/port, visa checks and security questions asked - not c/in to system
Tell pax to get to the gate as quickly as possible adding that they are on a 'have a go basis' and that under no circumstances will the aircraft be delayed
Pax run to gate and still have to pass through the normal security point.
If they arrive in time to be boarded, great. Dispatcher adds pax in LMC box on loadsheet (thats one of the reasons the LMC box is there) and amends zfm/tom etc.
Once pax on aircraft then they can be checked in to system.
If they don't make it tough, but most pax will see at least they were given the chance.

Result - pax happy, no headache for ticket desk staff in re-routing pax and no breach of security. Whats the problem?

[You splitter]

Ohitsmonday. Couldn't agree more. Although it is not always appropriate in every circumstance. Never delay the flight. After all 180 other passengers did make it on time so why should they suffer.

However every situation is differant and part of being a good operator is about good customer practice after first ensuring a good safety practice. A certain amount of flexibility is required to achieve that. The check in staff should liase with the dispatcher and the Captain and sometimes HAG would be an option. As said above that s what the LMC box is for!

However by far the best way to ensure you make the flight is to be there on time!

Any way enough of this I've just realised Im on an EZY flight to ABZ this afternoon. Best make tracks.....

[jumpseater]

Theres another thing about slots that SLF and people who want to late board dont realise. Once issued they can improve to an on time departure. You may well get on the plane and then be told sorry 40 min delay due to slot, however, in the background ops ATC people are looking at re-routes and potentially filing a different route to the same destination or at a lower/higher flight level. This then clears the slot and bingo away on time, immediate start and push. Now if we've let Mr Cackwatch start running to the gate, we can't go, we might then get another slot on the new route whilst waiting, and the whole procedure starts again.
A slot is a capacity constraint on a block of airspace, if you miss it someone else gets it, (don't even bother to ask for it back), and you go to the back of the queue for the slot, regardless of the importance of your flight or destination, or length of the queue. Say you're evening flight is running late to Zurich (which closes at night, due to an absolute night curfew). If you wait for Mr Cackwatch your flight might not even depart because your destination isn't even open when you get there! Still want to wait for him? We are a service industry, but do we provide the service for 179 on time pax, or 1 late one?

[Who has control?]

Perhaps if some of the points listed in the previous post were actually aired on programmes such a Airline, then maybe the pax might be more inclined to check in on time and get to the gate on time too.

[timzsta]

As I may have explained in my earlier posts on this subject, LMC's are no longer allowed by most airlines. The reason is several of those involved in the Sep 11 attacks got onboard as LMC's. Because an LMC has to be processed quickly security checks on these passengers cannot be done as thoroughly as would be liked. To make the industry a safer place for everyone LMC and "have a go" are a thing of the past.

Once again, get to check in on time, thousands manage it each day.

[Land After]

Because an LMC has to be processed quickly security checks on these passengers cannot be done as thoroughly as would be liked.

Why not? If you can't do the security, don't do the change.

If you can do the security, why not do the change?

Sometimes sh*t happens and with the best will in the world, you're late. Sometimes, would you believe it, a connecting flight of the same airline arrives late and you have to run.

As people have already said, this is a service industry and give and take goes both ways. SLF do remember good service and will take their business to where they get it.

This does not mean I'm looking for carte blanche to turn up late for every flight and demand to get on, threatening to take my important business elsewhere, after calling my friend the CEO about the appalling treatment.

Let's just have a little common sense for the times when something has gone wrong.

[ohitsmonday]

LA
Commonsense.......You have read the comments on this thread. Sad isn't it.

Tim....
Have you read what I said? ALL NORMAL SECURITY PROCEDURES ARE FOLLOWED.
I hope you don't work for an HA that handles the airline I work for

[timzsta]

I think you may have misunderstood me Monday. LMC's are no longer done at the Airline I work for because of the reasons I explained (Sep 11). Previously they were allowed so that the passenger who for whatever was late had one last chance to possibly make it onboard.

However the decision was made that the risk obviously outweighed the benefit. We have made things safer but at the expense of customer service. I hope passengers believe that safety should be of the utmost importance, and come before anything else.

[CainanUK]

As a dispatcher (load controller) working out of one of those little grotty rooms tucked away under some building I can tell you this...

Don't cut it so close. Give youself plenty of time and take any delays in getting to the airport under consideration. We have schedules that we have to keep. A plane simply cannot be held until you get there, whether the tardiness is your fault or not.

I have never understood why some people think they can turn up at the check in counter at -30 and think they can still get on the plane. You, the passenger, need to take some personal responsibility and get to the airport on time. I do believe the industry standard is to tell passengers to be at the airport two hours prior to departure. When you are late you take your chances. You have to get checked in (about 7 minutes per pax). You then have to clear security and passport control (another 10 minutes on average at MAN). You then have to find your gate and get on the plane. We may have standby passengers whe WERE there ON TIME and decided to let them have your seat. As I work for a handling agent as do most ground workers in the UK, I am going to do my best to keep my planes on time. Simply put, if my planes are constantly late, the airline will give their contract to another handling agent and BINGO, I am out of a job simple as that!

Never mind the fact that we close all doors at -5 to departure and have tons of paperwork that has to be prepared and signed off before each flight. Baggage has to be taken to the aircraft and loaded. Passengers have to be boarded. We have to take care of any last minute details and special requests from the cockpit and flight crew.

My point is this. It is just not as simple as you turning up and getting on the plane. There is a ton of other things that happen to make sure you get to where you are going and to do it on time. And for the record, I have NEVER asked a captain if he will take pax at the last minute. That is my call, not the captains. In fact if I ever did ask that, I would probably be laughed out of the cockpit. So that one was a line of bull my friend!

[christep]

Outbound passport control at MAN?

Really?

[AOG007]

CainanUK,

Well said. I am feeling that many of the people posting comments/remarks on this subject may be somewhat challenged in their knowledge of Airport Operations.

I appreciate a passengers view, we were all once them! But we know better now. I still turn up hours in advance, and ensure that should I have car trouble, tube trouble, coach trouble, connecting flight trouble or what ever excuse they come up with, I will always arrive for my listed flight.

Now I work in aviation, most of these passengers probably think that I can get special treatment because I staff. How wrong, I am a fare paying passenger. Therefore I will get there on time.

PASSENGERS.......
Please read these forums, and carefully soak up the information. We are not horrible monsters, that go out of our way to make your day a miserable one. We are following a set of proceedures laid down by our employer, and of which are approved by the CAA (Civil aviation Authority).
Security has become an even bigger issue due to last year, so please use your noddle!
All these bits and bobs, are there for your safety, as well as trying to get the aircraft away on time. Where flexibility can be exercised, it will be. but that is down the individual whom is the controlling person, and also with the circumstances of that perticular day.

If you are told "Sorry you are to late", don't stand there arguing, having a paddy or crying. I always look at it as the play acting part of the story. A genuine person who has missed, will be sussed out by the ground staff (they see it every day remember), and they will be helped much more, than if they were to go into performance mode!

Just get there on time! Its easy isn't it? 99% of passengers make it on time, so don't be the 1%!

[Little Chief]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and am quite surprised at how many replies it has provoked. I felt now was a good time to respond to my original post.

Firstly, just to clarify a few of points about how I felt (and still feel) when first starting this thread:
1) I was in no way suggesting that a plane should be delayed because of late passengers (this is totally unfair to everyone else!).
2) Security and safety must obviously be the number one priority for the airline and operations staff (I assume all passengers would appreciate this - after all its them that will suffer).
3) If you turn up late to a busy flight, then you must expect passengers on standy to have been given your seat.

Now, it seems that a lot of complaints are from the perceptions held by passengers as to what can and can't be done. Maybe all those who have read this thread are now more aware.

However, I sense there is also a lot of frustration caused by inconsistencies for different flights, poor explanations by ground staff and general in-efficiencies at check-in (hope this doesn't sound like to like a whinge directed an anyone inparticular).

Sure, you can turn up at the industry standard 2/3 hrs before check in. But most occasions when I have done this, either the check in desks aren't open yet, or the lack of open desks mean the queue is so long that you end up waiting in in the queue for 1.5 hrs anyway.

Then, it is unclear to the passenger why some airlines can rush you on within 15 minutes of departure, whilst others won't let you check in 30 minutes before. Maybe there has been too much flexibility in the past, or maybe some companies are just more efficient than others, or have invested more money in automating procedures? Why not have some consistency in the industry so we all know what to expect.

A general question - Why does it take so long for some people to check-in? I normally take about a minute - so why do I always seem to be stuck behind someone who takes 15. If there appears to be a problem, can't they just be put aside and dealt with by someone else so avoiding the frustration for other passengers (back to being fair again).

And a final question - why close check-in 30 minutes prior to departure (as opposed to 30 minutes before some other instance with the premise that this could be as early as 30 minutes prior to departure)? After all how often does a plane leave its stand and depart on-time. Yes I appreciate that departure is the allocated slot, it is the only definite time to begin with, and the airline has to be prepared to work around it dependant on how busy the airport is, etc, etc. But then when can the flight "officially" be said to be delayed allowing "late" passengers to make their flight (subject to room 1-3 above)? If these kind of criteria were made clear then passengers could have no argument.

No doubt, passengers will always moan - thats goes with the territory! But at least the airlines/handling agents could try and give us less reasons for doing so, however complicated an operation it is.

A quick thanks for all the information provided by operations staff and passengers alike. I've certainly learnt/am learning a lot!

[DistantRumble]

Very interesting listening to everyone ...


Flexibility ... the nature and economics of the business makes it difficult

As a person whose connection with the industry is IT CRM I tend to see more of the front-end of this.


I appreciate that if I want true flexibility then I can rent a Lear and that's what you pay for.


I also appreciate some of you work in overheated Portacabins and have a job to do.

But the service is not sold in this fashion... unless you bother to read the tariff rules and what exactly you are entitled to.

Only MOL's crowd are TRULY up-front about this. i.e. we couldn't give a stuff.


PS Do any European air carriers practice the parking brake trick to fake the on-time departures ? Or is it strictly a US thing ?

[timzsta]

The following events happened when I was working in departures at Stansted this week. It is an excellent example of why airlines like to close check in at the designated time, every time.

1405: Arrive at gate to meet inbound flight from France, to depart to another destination in France at 1500. Complete paperwork etc etc. Note from computer ETA of aircraft now 1435, departure slot at 1510. With a bit of hard work we should be able to achieve this as standard turnaround in 35 minutes (note though that the aircraft needs to be ready for take off at 1510, not pushing back at 1510).

1420 Inbound aircraft scheduled to arrive (departing flight 1500).
1425 ATC advise new slot at 1540
1430 Check in closed. 93 pax for flight, 5 no shows.
1435 Inbound aircraft arrives. Disembark pax, fuelling, catering, cleaning etc.
1445 ATC advise original slot of 1510 now reinstated.
1455 Commence boarding
1505 Boarding complete.
1507 Pushback, short taxi to runway 23 from stand 34R
1510 Aircraft takes off.

Aircraft arrives back at Stansted on time later that day having made up 5 mins on each sector.

So lets just suppose that when we were advised of the new slot at 1540 we had decided to leave check in open until 1510 to allow the last passengers extra time. We may never have seen those last 5 passengers and would have delayed the other 93 unnecessarily. And the passengers for the return flight and all passengers on flights operated by that aircraft for the rest of the day.

Things can change so quickly and so often as seen here that often attempting to show flexibility to a limited number of people who cant make it to the airport on time, can resulting in spoiling the day for several hundred more.

So once again, get to check in on time.

[brockenspectre]

First, as has been said elsewhere, have you ever heard of "XYZ airlines apologises for the late departure of Flight 123 for Wherever because the flight and cabin crew were delayed by train/car/other delays" ...

Second, why do airline pax believe that they can rant/rave at checkin staff because they (the staff) are applying the relevant rules which have been made abundantly clear to said pax on tickets and itinerary. Do these same pax complain to platform staff when a rail train departs on time without them? when a buse leaves a depot without them? why are airlines considered different?

As a commercial passenger I know my checkin time...I know my flight # and time .. I subscribe to BAA updates on my cellphone .. I arrive at the airport with ample time for checkin (the one time I didn't, although an Economy pax, the BA biz checkin accepted my checkin as I had a carryon bag and I ran to the gate with time in hand) ...

Conclusion? because for holiday pax (the subject of the majority of these airport docudrama programs) save all year for their vacation, the airport and flight are a "big deal" and they assume that this importance is attributed by all to what is happening to them. Unfortunately, no one has yet to advise them that this is not the case .. hence..the tantrums at the airport when all does not go according to their plan!