Who's in charge - RyanAir
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Who's in charge - RyanAir
My sister in law flew to Majorca on Ryan Air last month. (Mind you that is already a warning!).
30 drunk guys got onboard and kicked off. The interesting bit is that the cabin staff plied thm with booze for the whole 2hrs of the flt. The lads were ordering drinks (and paying for them) in bulk: multiples of 5 doubles here 6 cans there. They were refusing to wear seat belts, refusing to sit down for takeoff, hogging the toilets, swearing, shouting, etc.
When the plane landed, my nephew heard the Captain say to the senior purser: "What the
hell were you doing?"
I am led to believe cabin crew on RyanAir get commission for selling booze and goods onboard. Is this correct?
When are RyanAir going to tidy up their act eh?
I am so, so glad I refused to fly for these amateurs all those years ago - what a disasterous airline
30 drunk guys got onboard and kicked off. The interesting bit is that the cabin staff plied thm with booze for the whole 2hrs of the flt. The lads were ordering drinks (and paying for them) in bulk: multiples of 5 doubles here 6 cans there. They were refusing to wear seat belts, refusing to sit down for takeoff, hogging the toilets, swearing, shouting, etc.
When the plane landed, my nephew heard the Captain say to the senior purser: "What the
hell were you doing?"I am led to believe cabin crew on RyanAir get commission for selling booze and goods onboard. Is this correct?
When are RyanAir going to tidy up their act eh?
I am so, so glad I refused to fly for these amateurs all those years ago - what a disasterous airline
Crew do make commission from drink like most airlines that sell drinks etc.
I wasn't there so I'm not going to criticise or indeed defend the crews actions.
If they were refusing to sit down for take off then as a No.1 i'd seriously considering asking for them to be offloaded. Occasionally you get someone standing up once the cabin is secured but they sit down when they are told to.
However, it is not always clear cut when it comes to dealing with these 'groups' and on certain routes we do tend to get a lot of them at my airline too. On several occasions I have had passengers question my actions when it comes to serving groups. There are a few things to consider.
1) Groups of lads (and girls) often 'bounce off each other' and are quite often loud. That isn't a reason to not serve them with alcohol. It's good practice to build a rapport with them as it then makes it easier to reign them in if they decide to overstep the mark. Swearing; most crew will tell them to stop swearing but loud behaviour is common place on certain routes and thats just the way it is.
2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure.
3) Peoples tolerances vary. I am used to loud behaviour on certain flights, particularly in the Summer. It's part and parcel of what I do, I know I have control and these loud flights can be great fun to operate. However, your nervous flyer or those flying away to some quiet resort may feel intimidated so a cabin presence is always required for reassurance but strictly speaking, being loud is not against the rules and it doesn't always mean they've had too much to drink.
It's worth while mentioning a very recent flight I operated with around 15 rowdy squaddies returning back to the UK. They were loud, and sadly 1 or 2 were obnoxious. One guy in particular was drinking his own alcohol and generally being an idiot. A couple of people complained, I had another word with him to then be told to give them a break by a few other passengers. Again, peoples tolerances vary.
4) Withdraw alcohol if/when someone starts misbehaving. Again, misbehaving doesn't generally include loud behaviour. Withdrawing alcohol to quieten down a group doesn't work. However, if someone shows signs of unsafe behaviour then that is where you start getting serious and where withdrawing drink is necassary.
5) The vast majority of onboard incidents caused by drunken behaviour involve the consumption of own alcohol and believe it or not it tends to be individuals/couples who have been nice and pie one minute and the next suddenly turn nasty.
6) Some older couples can drink just as much. On Manchester flights it's not uncommon to serve the little old couple going on holiday 2 bottles of wine washed down with 2 double G&T on the first bar service. But their demographic means they are unlikely to be loud with their mates.
Like I said i don't want to comment too much as I wasn't there. To be honest, if they were refusing to sit down for take off I'd have considered asking the Captain that we return to stand and I would have been weary if we'd have taken them. Loud behaviour at this time of the year is just part and parcel of flying to the med though and I won't withdraw alcohol just on that basis. I will ask them to be quiet and many will quieten down only for them to get loud again. I'm sorry but that is more of a courtesy issue and not a safety infringment but like I said you keep an eye on them in order to make sure things don't get out of hand and you remain in control.
I'm not dismissing your sister in laws account but I just wanted to make a few points because some scenario's aren't always black and white and passengers don't (and aren't expected to) know how best to deal with groups of lads. Ruling with an iron fist rarely works in my opinion.
I'm not a fan of Ryanair and I am dubious about their crew even though there will, as always, be some bloody good crew members there.
I wasn't there so I'm not going to criticise or indeed defend the crews actions.
If they were refusing to sit down for take off then as a No.1 i'd seriously considering asking for them to be offloaded. Occasionally you get someone standing up once the cabin is secured but they sit down when they are told to.
However, it is not always clear cut when it comes to dealing with these 'groups' and on certain routes we do tend to get a lot of them at my airline too. On several occasions I have had passengers question my actions when it comes to serving groups. There are a few things to consider.
1) Groups of lads (and girls) often 'bounce off each other' and are quite often loud. That isn't a reason to not serve them with alcohol. It's good practice to build a rapport with them as it then makes it easier to reign them in if they decide to overstep the mark. Swearing; most crew will tell them to stop swearing but loud behaviour is common place on certain routes and thats just the way it is.
2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure.
3) Peoples tolerances vary. I am used to loud behaviour on certain flights, particularly in the Summer. It's part and parcel of what I do, I know I have control and these loud flights can be great fun to operate. However, your nervous flyer or those flying away to some quiet resort may feel intimidated so a cabin presence is always required for reassurance but strictly speaking, being loud is not against the rules and it doesn't always mean they've had too much to drink.
It's worth while mentioning a very recent flight I operated with around 15 rowdy squaddies returning back to the UK. They were loud, and sadly 1 or 2 were obnoxious. One guy in particular was drinking his own alcohol and generally being an idiot. A couple of people complained, I had another word with him to then be told to give them a break by a few other passengers. Again, peoples tolerances vary.
4) Withdraw alcohol if/when someone starts misbehaving. Again, misbehaving doesn't generally include loud behaviour. Withdrawing alcohol to quieten down a group doesn't work. However, if someone shows signs of unsafe behaviour then that is where you start getting serious and where withdrawing drink is necassary.
5) The vast majority of onboard incidents caused by drunken behaviour involve the consumption of own alcohol and believe it or not it tends to be individuals/couples who have been nice and pie one minute and the next suddenly turn nasty.
6) Some older couples can drink just as much. On Manchester flights it's not uncommon to serve the little old couple going on holiday 2 bottles of wine washed down with 2 double G&T on the first bar service. But their demographic means they are unlikely to be loud with their mates.
Like I said i don't want to comment too much as I wasn't there. To be honest, if they were refusing to sit down for take off I'd have considered asking the Captain that we return to stand and I would have been weary if we'd have taken them. Loud behaviour at this time of the year is just part and parcel of flying to the med though and I won't withdraw alcohol just on that basis. I will ask them to be quiet and many will quieten down only for them to get loud again. I'm sorry but that is more of a courtesy issue and not a safety infringment but like I said you keep an eye on them in order to make sure things don't get out of hand and you remain in control.
I'm not dismissing your sister in laws account but I just wanted to make a few points because some scenario's aren't always black and white and passengers don't (and aren't expected to) know how best to deal with groups of lads. Ruling with an iron fist rarely works in my opinion.
I'm not a fan of Ryanair and I am dubious about their crew even though there will, as always, be some bloody good crew members there.
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Yet another good reminder to myself why I avoid the likes of RYR like the plague. Easyflyer83's comments certainly doesn't encourage me to fly EZY either. I am however very grateful to these airlines for keeping those low life idiots away from the carriers I fly on 
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Ruling with an iron fist rarely works in my opinion.
To be honest, if they were refusing to sit down for take off I'd have considered asking the Captain that we return to stand and I would have been weary if we'd have taken them.
2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure.
3) Peoples tolerances vary. I am used to loud behaviour on certain flights, particularly in the Summer. It's part and parcel of what I do, I know I have control and these loud flights can be great fun to operate.
However, your nervous flyer or those flying away to some quiet resort may feel intimidated so a cabin presence is always required for reassurance but strictly speaking, being loud is not against the rules and it doesn't always mean they've had too much to drink.
4) Withdraw alcohol if/when someone starts misbehaving. Again, misbehaving doesn't generally include loud behaviour. Withdrawing alcohol to quieten down a group doesn't work. However, if someone shows signs of unsafe behaviour then that is where you start getting serious and where withdrawing drink is necassary
5) The vast majority of onboard incidents caused by drunken behaviour involve the consumption of own alcohol and believe it or not it tends to be individuals/couples who have been nice and pie one minute and the next suddenly turn nasty.
6) Some older couples can drink just as much. On Manchester flights it's not uncommon to serve the little old couple going on holiday 2 bottles of wine washed down with 2 double G&T on the first bar service. But their demographic means they are unlikely to be loud with their mates.
6) Some older couples can drink just as much. On Manchester flights it's not uncommon to serve the little old couple going on holiday 2 bottles of wine washed down with 2 double G&T on the first bar service. But their demographic means they are unlikely to be loud with their mates.
Ruling with an iron fist doesn't automatically involve acting like a Sergeant Major, easyflyer83. It's about being aware, using your judgement and experience and if needed, making tough decisions.
We have certain routes that are notorious for this sort of behaviour. If I hear of certain groups that have been a bit rowdy in the terminal, I catch them them as they come down the jetty, before they even get on the aircraft and have a quiet word. I'm always pleasant but make sure that they are left under no illusions as to what the consequences of bad behaviour will be. If I then receive a mouthful of abuse, they never make it through the door. In the majority of cases, most are happy to agree to the conditions, including the possibility of no alcohol to be served on board. Anyone found drinking their own during the flight has it confiscated and yes, I have done that more than once. As with every situation, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
Unfortunately, drunken disturbances can and do happen on all airlines around the world, legacy and lo-cost alike. It's not just a Ryanair thing. Some are completely unpredictable and come out of the blue but most are helped along by crew that just haven't got the confidence or experience to deal with conflict. I learned my trade, so to say, by plying the charter routes for many years and learning from very senior crew that had seen every possible scenario you could think of. I made my mistakes - and there were many - as a junior when there were senior crew around to pick up the pieces before slapping me with a used teabag. I then moved on to a legacy airline and eventually became senior crew myself.
These days, within a year or so of starting flying, you can be a Purser/CM/CSM or whatever else you want to call it, and be the most experienced member of cabin crew on an aircraft. In my opinion, it's just not long enough! We all know it's easy being a senior when it's all going right but it's when it all goes pear shaped that all that experience comes into play. When you do then make a mistake and possible misjudge a situation, such as how much someone has had to drink, you have the knowledge and confidence to sort it out.
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EasyFlyer - you sadden me with your attitude. It strikes me you are happy to choose the lesser of 2 evils, when in fact they are still both wrong (serving alcohol to drunks / letting drunks drink their own). I suspect it is atitudes like yours that allows this kind of behaviour to establish itself in the lower echelons of the gutteral airlines.
I have never, ever experienced this sort of behaviour in premier division airlines - why is that. Because the cabin crew are well trained, respected members of their industry. They are able to interpret situations early and make professional decisions based on common sense/decency and above all - safety.
Alas - attitudes like yours will undoubtedly infect others working with you, perpetuating the reality that is so evident in 3rd division airlines like RA.
God help us.
I have never, ever experienced this sort of behaviour in premier division airlines - why is that. Because the cabin crew are well trained, respected members of their industry. They are able to interpret situations early and make professional decisions based on common sense/decency and above all - safety.
Alas - attitudes like yours will undoubtedly infect others working with you, perpetuating the reality that is so evident in 3rd division airlines like RA.
God help us.
To be fair I think my comments have been misrepresented or misunderstood.
Generally speaking you will find it is route specific and not airline specific. Also, most air-rage incidents (alcohol-fuelled) tend to be business class pax.
In the situation described in the OP, the guys must have sat down for take off. We can say whatever we like about Ryanair and their crew, much of it justified, but I can't see the crew just allowing it. If it's after take off roll commences, then there is not a lot the crew can do other than use the PA. No point risking their own safety.
If you withdraw alcohol from a group just because they are being loud and if they have their own drink you are just inviting them to drink their own. Being as experienced as you are you'll know that the vast majority of incidences involve consumption of own alcohol. You have obviously moved on to legacy (I started legacy and moved onto LCC after) so let me tell you how difficult it is to control people drinking their own alcohol. People are so sly with it now that you don't realise until they are either very drunk or you find the empty bottle.
At least by serving the airlines alcohol you can ration it.....or in extreme circumstances, cut it off.
Absolutely. You know as well as I do you could serve G&T's to that little old lady until the cows come home and nobody would bat an eye lid.
I know when I have control and when things are going too far. Carrott and stick tends to work really well. You have a laugh with them, you serve them alcohol but you make sure they know who is in charge and this makes them a lot easier to control. Like you say, you don't always know when things are about to kick off but up until that point you know whether you are in control or not.
Again, it depends on what type of flight you're operating. In the Summer months half the aircraft can be loud and the vast majority of pax find it perfectly acceptable. Have a small but loud stag party on a Thursday flight to a City destination and many of the passengers will find it unacceptable.
In the latter I especially I will always ask them to be keep the noise down. Most times they will but naturally the noise level increases again. Do we stop serving alcohol just because they're being loud but aren't showing signs of being drunk? Do we divert? Of course not.
I will always ask for language to be toned down.
Just over 8 years of flying, 2 of those as No.1 and i've never had to divert other than for 1 medical. Only ever had to have the police meet the aircraft once and that was due to a stolen credit card being used.
You do nothing that I don't do but sometimes you are going to get lively flights where lads (and girls) are loud. And i stand by my assertion that loud groups doesn't automatically mean they're drunk, it doesn't automatically mean that a kick off is imminent and it certainly doesn't mean that those passengers are being unsafe. Your evening PMI's etc are quite often rowdy regardless of what you do. That is the nature of the beast. With respect, I think a few sectors back on some of these routes would remind you of what things are really like. As a side note, we're not allowed to confiscate peoples possessions.....even though I have on the odd occasion. I think it would be the same rule at your carrier too as there is some kind of legality surrounding that.
Whilst I think a year is somewhat of an exaggeration I am inclined to agree. It's not rocket science no matter what people say but experience really helps. I got no.1 after almost 6 years of flying which is still quite quick. That said, without sounding 'cocky', I am pretty good at what I do.
Well i'm genuinely sorry you feel that way. However, I don't allow consumption of own alcohol. I don't serve alcohol to drunks and no where have I said that......but by the same token i don't withdraw alcohol just because someone is talking loudly or being a bit rowdy. Sometimes that is half the aircraft. And thirdly, I am offended by your description of the airline I work for. It's not gutteral and low cost doesn't automatically mean that.
That is just plane rude. I was trained to BA standards with a BA affiliate and I work with crew that have flown for EK, QF, BD etc etc. There are crew I fly with who have years of experience and to generalise them purely by their employer is not only pig ignorant but grossly misleading and misrepresented. The same can be said for BA mixed fleet who have some inexperienced flyers but that too would be a misrepresentation and in actual fact from recent experience, their customer service skills seemed to better than their worldwide counterparts. Meanwhile for it's faults, Easyjet crew tend to be highly regarded.
I think you need to re-read my post. At no point was I dismissing or indeed condoning the alledged events on your sister in laws flight. My post was intended as more of an 'editorial' as to the intricacies of dealing with rowdy flights. At no point did I say i serve drunks but more that withdrawing alcohol isn't always the best thing to do. Rowdy flights happen and a flight that is rowdy to some passengers isn't always rowdy to others, it also depends where you are flying to and indeed the time of day. Please don't judge me on who I work for and how I do my job. I am not lying when I say that I have never had an incident on my flight other than the odd low level matter that has been resolved onboard. I think that speaks for itself, both in terms of my airline and how I perform my duties.
Yet another good reminder to myself why I avoid the likes of RYR like the plague. Easyflyer83's comments certainly doesn't encourage me to fly EZY either. I am however very grateful to these airlines for keeping those low life idiots away from the carriers I fly on 
Only considered? If they are refusing to sit down, how are you able to give cabin secure? Sorry but that's a definite no go. Back to the terminal and off they go, with a little assistance from the police if need be.
Quote:
2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure. You are joking, aren't you?
2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure. You are joking, aren't you?
At least by serving the airlines alcohol you can ration it.....or in extreme circumstances, cut it off.
How do you know you have control? People are, by their very nature, unpredictable at the best of times. Add in alcohol and possible drugs and the situation can turn from fun to nasty and downright dangerous in a matter of seconds.
However, I'll definitely agree with that! It's often the sweet little old lady with her G&T's that will catch you out while you've been busy watching the stag group in the back.
I know when I have control and when things are going too far. Carrott and stick tends to work really well. You have a laugh with them, you serve them alcohol but you make sure they know who is in charge and this makes them a lot easier to control. Like you say, you don't always know when things are about to kick off but up until that point you know whether you are in control or not.
No, being loud isn't always down to alcohol but if it's loud enough to disturb other passengers, then I think you'll find it's very much against the rules.
In the latter I especially I will always ask them to be keep the noise down. Most times they will but naturally the noise level increases again. Do we stop serving alcohol just because they're being loud but aren't showing signs of being drunk? Do we divert? Of course not.
I will always ask for language to be toned down.
By which time, it's usually too late and you have one heck of a problem and possibly a divert on your hands!
We have certain routes that are notorious for this sort of behaviour. If I hear of certain groups that have been a bit rowdy in the terminal, I catch them them as they come down the jetty, before they even get on the aircraft and have a quiet word. I'm always pleasant but make sure that they are left under no illusions as to what the consequences of bad behaviour will be. If I then receive a mouthful of abuse, they never make it through the door. In the majority of cases, most are happy to agree to the conditions, including the possibility of no alcohol to be served on board. Anyone found drinking their own during the flight has it confiscated and yes, I have done that more than once. As with every situation, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
These days, within a year or so of starting flying, you can be a Purser/CM/CSM or whatever else you want to call it, and be the most experienced member of cabin crew on an aircraft. In my opinion, it's just not long enough! We all know it's easy being a senior when it's all going right but it's when it all goes pear shaped that all that experience comes into play. When you do then make a mistake and possible misjudge a situation, such as how much someone has had to drink, you have the knowledge and confidence to sort it out.
EasyFlyer - you sadden me with your attitude. It strikes me you are happy to choose the lesser of 2 evils, when in fact they are still both wrong (serving alcohol to drunks / letting drunks drink their own). I suspect it is atitudes like yours that allows this kind of behaviour to establish itself in the lower echelons of the gutteral airlines.
I have never, ever experienced this sort of behaviour in premier division airlines - why is that. Because the cabin crew are well trained, respected members of their industry. They are able to interpret situations early and make professional decisions based on common sense/decency and above all - safety.
Alas - attitudes like yours will undoubtedly infect others working with you, perpetuating the reality that is so evident in 3rd division airlines like RA.
God help us.
Alas - attitudes like yours will undoubtedly infect others working with you, perpetuating the reality that is so evident in 3rd division airlines like RA.
God help us.
I think you need to re-read my post. At no point was I dismissing or indeed condoning the alledged events on your sister in laws flight. My post was intended as more of an 'editorial' as to the intricacies of dealing with rowdy flights. At no point did I say i serve drunks but more that withdrawing alcohol isn't always the best thing to do. Rowdy flights happen and a flight that is rowdy to some passengers isn't always rowdy to others, it also depends where you are flying to and indeed the time of day. Please don't judge me on who I work for and how I do my job. I am not lying when I say that I have never had an incident on my flight other than the odd low level matter that has been resolved onboard. I think that speaks for itself, both in terms of my airline and how I perform my duties.
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Of course there are incidents on the legacy carriers too. They are however few and far between. I'm not talking about air rage but about how these drunken holiday louts can make one's journey very unpleasant. In all my years of Business Class travel I have only ever once witnessed a hopelessly drunk passenger, and that was on Concorde. He got loud but not aggressive. The CC did a great job and expertly managed to calm him down whilst keeping him (and the rest of us) happy.
Generally speaking, the 'offending' routes tend not to be operated by the legacies. Sure there are some Cities where the LCC's tend to pick up the stags but these are on one or two services around the weekend.
There is nothing wrong with your choice of airline but to generalise on passenger type is completely misguided. Your average LCC passenger flying LGW-MAD or LTN-NCE etc are not that unlike passengers on legacy carriers. I would have thought being on pprune you're be able to appreciate that. One anecdote I head a while back was that if you took a look at LTN long stay you would get a fair idea of the type of passenger that uses such airlines as the ones that fly into that airport.
There is nothing wrong with your choice of airline but to generalise on passenger type is completely misguided. Your average LCC passenger flying LGW-MAD or LTN-NCE etc are not that unlike passengers on legacy carriers. I would have thought being on pprune you're be able to appreciate that. One anecdote I head a while back was that if you took a look at LTN long stay you would get a fair idea of the type of passenger that uses such airlines as the ones that fly into that airport.
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Jetset Lady,
Thank you. I would be very honoured to fly on one of your flights.
(even though I've sworn off a certain airline based in a watershed due to poor service recovery - nothing to do with onboard service)
Thank you. I would be very honoured to fly on one of your flights.
(even though I've sworn off a certain airline based in a watershed due to poor service recovery - nothing to do with onboard service)
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Who's in charge?
Legally, it's the captain. But the task of managing the cabin is delegated to the cabin crew. But the captain also has to make sure they realise that will be fully supported with the decisions they take. This normally enables them to confidently handle most situations.
I suppose you can say I fly for a legacy (but 'lowish' fare) airline and to date (16 years) I have not had any problems with groups of loud lads, drunks etc. I've denied boarding to a few and personally "briefed" others. All others were dealt with by the cabin crew. Obviously we have had problems with a few individuals, but these are very much the exception. Overall, I consider that people like to fly in a civilised environment so that is what we try to create. So if you wish to fly with rowdy groups of drunks and yobbish illiterate half-wits, don't fly with me, fly with a "low-cost" carrier.
I suppose you can say I fly for a legacy (but 'lowish' fare) airline and to date (16 years) I have not had any problems with groups of loud lads, drunks etc. I've denied boarding to a few and personally "briefed" others. All others were dealt with by the cabin crew. Obviously we have had problems with a few individuals, but these are very much the exception. Overall, I consider that people like to fly in a civilised environment so that is what we try to create. So if you wish to fly with rowdy groups of drunks and yobbish illiterate half-wits, don't fly with me, fly with a "low-cost" carrier.
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easyflyer, I'm not generalising on type of passenger. I would say that the vast majority of pax on RYR and EZY want nothing more than a quiet and pleasant flight. The problem is that you are more likely to come across loud foul-mouthed drunk louts on the cheapest LCCs than on others. I agree that particular routes will suffer more than others. As one who lives outside the UK and uses German LCCs I can also say that the problem is a lot more prevalent with UK pax than other nationalities. I have flown with high spirited groups of German youth and found them polite, respectful and able to have fun without making everybody else's flight a misery.
Thread Starter
At the end of the day, it's all about cabin crew education.
I suspect (and I stand readily corrected) the LCC's do not 'invest' in their staff too deeply, in this regard. Of course they teach their staff the legal basics but how mouch time and effort is expended in teaching them to defuse situations? If you pay peanuts you get......... etc etc.
LCC Cabin crew get paid on an hourly basis only when they turn up for work, correct? I would even go as far as to hazard that some are self employed so the Airline can minimse overheads even more (Though I do seem to recall that there are legalities in making everyone who works for you - self employed!)
The reason why legacy and higher echelon operators don't experience this problem is:
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
(b) because the CC strategically assess the situation early before it escalates.
A bunch of DRUNKS heading for the boarding gate need to be intercepted BEFORE they get on board - simples! It doesn't take a professor to work that one out.
IF some get onboard, then the work load is greater - managing them but nonetheless it is manageable. Oh - the Captain needs to be told BEFOREHAND, so he/she can assist in the scheme of things.
That trip my sis in law went on, together with the other 186 passengers now has a permanent correlation between lager louts/disturbed flights/LCC's.
NOT good for the industry on the whole, but disasterous for that Airline's long term prospects.
EasyFlyer83 - I repeat: this behaviour is ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE and not for compromise.
I suspect (and I stand readily corrected) the LCC's do not 'invest' in their staff too deeply, in this regard. Of course they teach their staff the legal basics but how mouch time and effort is expended in teaching them to defuse situations? If you pay peanuts you get......... etc etc.
LCC Cabin crew get paid on an hourly basis only when they turn up for work, correct? I would even go as far as to hazard that some are self employed so the Airline can minimse overheads even more (Though I do seem to recall that there are legalities in making everyone who works for you - self employed!)
The reason why legacy and higher echelon operators don't experience this problem is:
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
(b) because the CC strategically assess the situation early before it escalates.
A bunch of DRUNKS heading for the boarding gate need to be intercepted BEFORE they get on board - simples! It doesn't take a professor to work that one out.
IF some get onboard, then the work load is greater - managing them but nonetheless it is manageable. Oh - the Captain needs to be told BEFOREHAND, so he/she can assist in the scheme of things.
That trip my sis in law went on, together with the other 186 passengers now has a permanent correlation between lager louts/disturbed flights/LCC's.
NOT good for the industry on the whole, but disasterous for that Airline's long term prospects.
EasyFlyer83 - I repeat: this behaviour is ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE and not for compromise.
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Hotel Tango - Concorde eh?
Even if he was a complete tosser you would only have had a couple of hours with him rather than seven.....sigh.
A bit of Concorde-misser licence there, but you get my drift....
Even if he was a complete tosser you would only have had a couple of hours with him rather than seven.....sigh.
A bit of Concorde-misser licence there, but you get my drift....
Regarding pay. Easyjet are now amongst the best paid crew in the UK if you were to start today. On average an Easyjet F/A earns 24K before tax compared to around 18-20K at VS or BA mixed fleet. On the latter two that also includes allowances that are basically expenses for being down route.
Easyjet crew aren't paid hourly but by sector, BA mixed fleet are paid hourly and so was I when i worked at a BA franchise. I'm not trying to prove a point when I say that I earned a lot more as a junior crew member at Easyjet than I did at the BA franchise.
A typical return to the canaries is an 11 hour duty. 4 years ago at the franchise junior crew received £2.60 an hour which equals £28.60 in sector/flight pay. That is roughly what BA mixed fleet earn now. At Easyjet your F/A rank earns £79. All these examples are on top of basic pay and any commission paid.
So the paying peanuts getting monkeys, atleast at Easyjet, is utter rubbish. I sometimes think employing some 19 year olds is perhaps a little too young but there are many older, experienced crew who work for us and as I alluded to earlier they have multiple airlines under their belt whether that be full service, charter and indeed low cost. We even had a lovely lady who worked for the Qatar royal flight. However you pretty much glossed over that. That is Easyjet, I don't know about Ryanair but please don't tarnish my colleagues with the same brush.
The main reason they don't get those passengers is because they don't operate LPL-PMI, MAN-IBZ, LGW-HER etc etc. You'll find that on LGW-VIE, LGW-MAD etc the passenger profile isn't an awful lot different to some legacies.
I find that comment offensive. Again, you have totally misrepresented what my point was. There is a difference between a bit rowdy and unruly. I never said I allowed unruly behaviour on my flights. A group of lads going on their first holiday abroad and being a bit rowdy does not make them the dregs of society!!!
Drunks in terminal; we often rely on passengers to give us information. I can assure you that they are assessed. Being loud does not mean they are automatically offloaded but they are assessed on how they speak in terms of whether they are abusive, are they slurring. You also look at how they walk and whether you can smell.
Again, I never condoned the behaviour on the Ryanair flight in question and the examples i talk about are nothing like that. I was talking about generally rowdy flights in the height of Summer and the challenges they can bring both in terms of passenger profile and ways with managing them.
If thats your own interpretation of LCC then so be it but if you think every flight comes anything close to the Ryanair example then you are very very deluded.
Really? So why is Easyjet so profitable during one of the harshest economic environment the industry has ever seen? Why are they managing to keep load factors high whilst increasing yields? Easyjets prospects are incredibly good. Again I can't speak for Ryanair but I'm certainly not a fan.
Then we have to agree to disagree. Withdrawing alcohol at the first sign of a group of guys or girls and even families getting a bit loud is an over reaction, there is a better way of handling them. For the last time I have never once advocated serving alcohol to drunks and neither have i said that plying copious amounts is a good solution.
Certain flights at certain times of the year can be lively....fact. You can get people standing in the aisles chatting and laughing, sometimes being a bit loud and whilst some see this as being totally unacceptable I don't believe that it always is. And it certainly doesn't mean that alcohol should be cut off on that basis. Indeed it can cause further problems. That was my fundamental point. I never likened my experiences to the Ryanair incident.
Easyjet crew aren't paid hourly but by sector, BA mixed fleet are paid hourly and so was I when i worked at a BA franchise. I'm not trying to prove a point when I say that I earned a lot more as a junior crew member at Easyjet than I did at the BA franchise.
A typical return to the canaries is an 11 hour duty. 4 years ago at the franchise junior crew received £2.60 an hour which equals £28.60 in sector/flight pay. That is roughly what BA mixed fleet earn now. At Easyjet your F/A rank earns £79. All these examples are on top of basic pay and any commission paid.
So the paying peanuts getting monkeys, atleast at Easyjet, is utter rubbish. I sometimes think employing some 19 year olds is perhaps a little too young but there are many older, experienced crew who work for us and as I alluded to earlier they have multiple airlines under their belt whether that be full service, charter and indeed low cost. We even had a lovely lady who worked for the Qatar royal flight. However you pretty much glossed over that. That is Easyjet, I don't know about Ryanair but please don't tarnish my colleagues with the same brush.
The reason why legacy and higher echelon operators don't experience this problem is:
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
(b) because the CC strategically assess the situation early before it escalates.
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
(b) because the CC strategically assess the situation early before it escalates.
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
A bunch of DRUNKS heading for the boarding gate need to be intercepted BEFORE they get on board - simples! It doesn't take a professor to work that one out.
IF some get onboard, then the work load is greater - managing them but nonetheless it is manageable. Oh - the Captain needs to be told BEFOREHAND, so he/she can assist in the scheme of things.
IF some get onboard, then the work load is greater - managing them but nonetheless it is manageable. Oh - the Captain needs to be told BEFOREHAND, so he/she can assist in the scheme of things.
That trip my sis in law went on, together with the other 186 passengers now has a permanent correlation between lager louts/disturbed flights/LCC's.
If thats your own interpretation of LCC then so be it but if you think every flight comes anything close to the Ryanair example then you are very very deluded.
NOT good for the industry on the whole, but disasterous for that Airline's long term prospects.
EasyFlyer83 - I repeat: this behaviour is ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE and not for compromise.
Certain flights at certain times of the year can be lively....fact. You can get people standing in the aisles chatting and laughing, sometimes being a bit loud and whilst some see this as being totally unacceptable I don't believe that it always is. And it certainly doesn't mean that alcohol should be cut off on that basis. Indeed it can cause further problems. That was my fundamental point. I never likened my experiences to the Ryanair incident.
Last edited by easyflyer83; 21st Aug 2012 at 14:09.
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Oh dear. I don't think your comments have been misrepresented or misunderstood but if they have, that may be because you keep contradicting yourself! For example;
....followed by
But apparently it's not airline specific and it's the our business class pax that cause all the problem? So why should I fly some of these routes again to "remind me what it's like?" As it happens, in the last month, I have operated 2 late night Friday IBZ's and various other Med destinations. Probably pretty much the same as you. Do they count? 
I'm sorry but it doesn't matter how often you try to justify this behaviour, It borders on criminal stupidity! "Oh well, I'd rather they drank our alcohol than their own" is not going to hold up in any court in the land. If you do not feel confident in your ability to know when people are drinking their own or possibly topping up the "rations" you have served them from their own, then you are not fit to be a senior crew member on any aircraft in the world. As for..
For heavens sake! Think about it, easyflyer83! If someone is drinking from their own alcohol on board an aircraft and becoming drunk - which is against the ANO, don't forget - then not only are you allowed to confiscate the alcohol, you are legally obliged to do so, with the proviso that it must be returned to the passenger at the end of the flight. As you yourself said, it's not rocket science!
But if things kick off, then you didn't have control after all did you! None of us has will ever have full control over what a person may do on-board an aircraft. Well, Derren Brown might but most of us aren't Derren Brown. Anyone that thinks they have control are lulled risks being lulled into a false sense of security.
You are right in that no one should judge you on who you work for, although you seem to have done just that with me. I have said, this isn't a lo-co V schedule. We will all come across these situations no matter what the pretty colour and pattern on the outside of the aircraft. It's how they are dealt with that matters.
Good? Or lucky?
Generally speaking you will find it is route specific and not airline specific. Also, most air-rage incidents (alcohol-fuelled) tend to be business class pax.
With respect, I think a few sectors back on some of these routes would remind you of what things are really like.
If you withdraw alcohol from a group just because they are being loud and if they have their own drink you are just inviting them to drink their own. Being as experienced as you are you'll know that the vast majority of incidences involve consumption of own alcohol. You have obviously moved on to legacy (I started legacy and moved onto LCC after) so let me tell you how difficult it is to control people drinking their own alcohol. People are so sly with it now that you don't realise until they are either very drunk or you find the empty bottle.
At least by serving the airlines alcohol you can ration it.....or in extreme circumstances, cut it off.
At least by serving the airlines alcohol you can ration it.....or in extreme circumstances, cut it off.
As a side note, we're not allowed to confiscate peoples possessions.....even though I have on the odd occasion. I think it would be the same rule at your carrier too as there is some kind of legality surrounding that.
I know when I have control and when things are going too far. Carrott and stick tends to work really well. You have a laugh with them, you serve them alcohol but you make sure they know who is in charge and this makes them a lot easier to control. Like you say, you don't always know when things are about to kick off but up until that point you know whether you are in control or not
You are right in that no one should judge you on who you work for, although you seem to have done just that with me. I have said, this isn't a lo-co V schedule. We will all come across these situations no matter what the pretty colour and pattern on the outside of the aircraft. It's how they are dealt with that matters.
That said, without sounding 'cocky', I am pretty good at what I do.
Fair point about the one contradiction I made. However, regardless of cause, legacies have their fair share of air rage incidents. Further to that though, rowdy doesn't mean unruly but rowdy flights tend to be the routes that legacies don't operate. So in retrospect as I write, it wasn't that big a contradiction.
With regards to your med flights. I said maybe you should do a few sectors BACK on some of those routes. You even quoted me on thy so atleast read and understand what you quote.
We're told that we cannot confiscate alcohol. We do from time to
Time when it is really necessary. I don't think the ANO's cover confiscating alcohol.
Others have turned this into a LCC Vs Legacy.
We don't agree. My flights operate extremely well and I am confident that I har good judgement. Never perfect but no one is. The crucial point is that I manage my flights very well. I know it, whether you choose to believe it is, as always in these debates, up to you.
With regards to your med flights. I said maybe you should do a few sectors BACK on some of those routes. You even quoted me on thy so atleast read and understand what you quote.
We're told that we cannot confiscate alcohol. We do from time to
Time when it is really necessary. I don't think the ANO's cover confiscating alcohol.
Others have turned this into a LCC Vs Legacy.
We don't agree. My flights operate extremely well and I am confident that I har good judgement. Never perfect but no one is. The crucial point is that I manage my flights very well. I know it, whether you choose to believe it is, as always in these debates, up to you.
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We're told that we cannot confiscate alcohol
Having read through this thread as a Retired 146Driver, The ANO covers all of this DO YOU EVER READ IT If I remember rightly you shall not be drunk on an A/c Also the problem with these sort of people Is they seem to get past the Gate room staff & then the problem ends up on the A/c which Is much harder to deal with . or am i missing something hear.
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Thanks, OutsideCAS and t211. Easyflyer83, who is telling you you can't confiscate alcohol for the duration of the flight, if necessary? That's quite worrying if this sort of thing is being trained.
What on earth are you talking about? 
This thread started as the usual Ryanair knocking thread, a bandwagon that you appeared to gleefully jump upon if the last sentence of your original post is anything to go by.
But then, ironically, it all backfired for you quite dramatically when your own lack of knowledge and common sense dragged your current airline in to the fray. That is when it became a bit, rather unfairly in my opinion, lo-co versus legacy. As I have said all along. Trouble can and does happen on all types of flights, on all types of aircraft, with all types of demographic.
Let's face it, this isn't the first time recently that you have jumped in feet first and without thinking it through. Last time, I think it was when you declared an aircraft could land themselves in the event of a double pilot incap. One of your very good and well respected colleagues, lowcostdolly tried to help you out of that pickle but you still stumbled on in your own little world. You would do well to listen to LCD, easyflyer. You could learn a lot from her. (Even if we haven't always agreed on everything in the past.....)
Thank-you, ExXB. I also would be honoured to welcome you onboard. You never know. One day, maybe that time will actually happen...
With regards to your med flights. I said you should do a few sectors BACK on some of these routes. You even quoted me on thy so atleast read and understand what you quote.
This thread started as the usual Ryanair knocking thread, a bandwagon that you appeared to gleefully jump upon if the last sentence of your original post is anything to go by.
But then, ironically, it all backfired for you quite dramatically when your own lack of knowledge and common sense dragged your current airline in to the fray. That is when it became a bit, rather unfairly in my opinion, lo-co versus legacy. As I have said all along. Trouble can and does happen on all types of flights, on all types of aircraft, with all types of demographic.
Let's face it, this isn't the first time recently that you have jumped in feet first and without thinking it through. Last time, I think it was when you declared an aircraft could land themselves in the event of a double pilot incap. One of your very good and well respected colleagues, lowcostdolly tried to help you out of that pickle but you still stumbled on in your own little world. You would do well to listen to LCD, easyflyer. You could learn a lot from her. (Even if we haven't always agreed on everything in the past.....
)Thank-you, ExXB. I also would be honoured to welcome you onboard. You never know. One day, maybe that time will actually happen...
Last edited by jetset lady; 21st Aug 2012 at 21:40.
This thread started as the usual Ryanair knocking thread, a bandwagon that you appeared to gleefully jump upon if the last sentence of your original post is anything to go by.
Let's face it, this isn't the first time recently that you have jumped in feet first and without thinking it through. Last time, I think it was when you declared an aircraft could land themselves in the event of a double pilot incap. One of your very good and well respected colleagues, lowcostdolly tried to help you out of that pickle but you still stumbled on in your own little world. You would do well to listen to LCD, easyflyer. You could learn a lot from her. (Even if we haven't always agreed on everything in the past.....)
)
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/492...-scenario.html
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1...ation-ezy.html
Were you mistaken? I can't see any posts from me on either of those. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that, I contribute a lot and don't always remember which posts i comment on. Please atleast double check before accusing me. It only took me a couple of minutes to verify (or not in this case).
I've said my piece and stand by it. Theres a difference between unruly behaviour and generally being loud and jovial, as I keep saying
I probably deal unruly behaviour is probably dealt with in the same way as you. Dealing with loud passengers I like to think I do a good job and I have encountered few problems thus far. We all have out ways of dealing with things so lets leave it at that. I'm not debating any further. We disagree.