Who's in charge - RyanAir
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No, you're totally correct and I do apologise. You weren't involved in that thread at all. That was another ej crew member according to their profile. I was confusing it with the "separating men and children" thread.
Out of curiosity, why are you not a fan of FR?
Out of curiosity, why are you not a fan of FR?
I just think they show contempt for their customers and they take low cost too far. I agree there are alot of people who just love to 'bash' Ryanair and will often fail to even acknowledge their success. I see Ryanair as a success story but often wonder if their ultra low cost strategy is sustainable at a time when I believe the distinction between 'normal' low cost and legacy will become blurred
Anecdotal, but the amount 'you lot are so much better than Ryanair' is perhaps the most heard comment I personally get as Easyjet crew. It's been a while since I last flew FR personally.
I can understand therefore if people dislike Ryanair (or aby airline) but to tar every low cost airline with the same brush is offensive. I think there has been offensive comments about low cost crew (even though many of us have legacy experience and often years of it) and I also think there have been some snobbish and damn right offensive comments about our passengers. A group of lads getting a bit loud when they are off on their hols coupled with the fact they are flying low cost does not make them the 'dregs of society' etc.
Anecdotal, but the amount 'you lot are so much better than Ryanair' is perhaps the most heard comment I personally get as Easyjet crew. It's been a while since I last flew FR personally.
I can understand therefore if people dislike Ryanair (or aby airline) but to tar every low cost airline with the same brush is offensive. I think there has been offensive comments about low cost crew (even though many of us have legacy experience and often years of it) and I also think there have been some snobbish and damn right offensive comments about our passengers. A group of lads getting a bit loud when they are off on their hols coupled with the fact they are flying low cost does not make them the 'dregs of society' etc.
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OMG easyflyer would you care for a shovel or are you OK trashing the loco's on the pax forum as a PU totally unaided?
Loud or drunk?? Who are we to say as CC at either ground level or at 35,000 feet? In fact we are not allowed to say somebody is intoxicated as it's not PC and we have no proof until the police involve a FME to take the relevant tests. It is us, as cabin managers, through and with the support of the Captain who make the decision involve the police re their behaviour. That is CRM 101.
What we are allowed to say though is a pax is breaching the ANO's and as a PU we can and indeed should tell the Captain be that on boarding or taxi. If the offending pax/groups don't buckle up and shut up on the ground (a reasonable instruction from the crew as per the ANO's) then call the police and have them off loaded.....end of!!
Take them, complete with attitude, to to 35,000 and they are a complete liability in the air to both pax, crew and company which could have been avoided if only concerns were acted on rather than "considered" when informng or not the aircraft commander of a potential problem identified at ground level.
My experience of EZY captains is they always listen to the opinion of their cabin managers and the ground staff re potential problems and they don't take these problems in the air on that flight.
However, as CCM, if you fail to identify this at ground level or indeed tolerate and ignore this that is your call. Looks like that is what the FR PU did here.
In the air easyflyer these disruptive pax will fuel their alchohol source from the cheapest possible which isn't our bar whatever you choose to say re selling from this. They will drink from under their seat, purchased from duty free or not, but will purchase on board as well for appearences sake.....usually a few cokes or lemonades to mix with the vodka and the token beers
We have the right to confiscate their alchohol source providing we hand it back to them on disembarking. I'm amazed you don't do this and curtail the sale of alchohol to loud and disruptive pax.
Our Captains will support you in this action but you need to talk to them as they are in command of the aircraft. You are in command of the cabin as delegated but but you need to refer for support.
A good CM recognises this, learns and grows.
Clearly you have not recognised this yet easyflyer but wherever they get this alchohol the effects are multiplied at 35,000. What you as the CCM could have dealt with as a minor inconvienience/delay at ground level is now a major headache in the air for a the flight crew, the pax on board and the company.
To get back to the OP's question Who is in charge?
It's the Captain of any flight in any airline. He/she is relient totally on the info provided by the cabin manager re cabin issues however.
Loud or drunk?? Who are we to say as CC at either ground level or at 35,000 feet? In fact we are not allowed to say somebody is intoxicated as it's not PC and we have no proof until the police involve a FME to take the relevant tests. It is us, as cabin managers, through and with the support of the Captain who make the decision involve the police re their behaviour. That is CRM 101.
What we are allowed to say though is a pax is breaching the ANO's and as a PU we can and indeed should tell the Captain be that on boarding or taxi. If the offending pax/groups don't buckle up and shut up on the ground (a reasonable instruction from the crew as per the ANO's) then call the police and have them off loaded.....end of!!
Take them, complete with attitude, to to 35,000 and they are a complete liability in the air to both pax, crew and company which could have been avoided if only concerns were acted on rather than "considered" when informng or not the aircraft commander of a potential problem identified at ground level.
My experience of EZY captains is they always listen to the opinion of their cabin managers and the ground staff re potential problems and they don't take these problems in the air on that flight.
However, as CCM, if you fail to identify this at ground level or indeed tolerate and ignore this that is your call. Looks like that is what the FR PU did here.
In the air easyflyer these disruptive pax will fuel their alchohol source from the cheapest possible which isn't our bar whatever you choose to say re selling from this. They will drink from under their seat, purchased from duty free or not, but will purchase on board as well for appearences sake.....usually a few cokes or lemonades to mix with the vodka and the token beers
We have the right to confiscate their alchohol source providing we hand it back to them on disembarking. I'm amazed you don't do this and curtail the sale of alchohol to loud and disruptive pax.
Our Captains will support you in this action but you need to talk to them as they are in command of the aircraft. You are in command of the cabin as delegated but but you need to refer for support.
A good CM recognises this, learns and grows.
Clearly you have not recognised this yet easyflyer but wherever they get this alchohol the effects are multiplied at 35,000. What you as the CCM could have dealt with as a minor inconvienience/delay at ground level is now a major headache in the air for a the flight crew, the pax on board and the company.
To get back to the OP's question Who is in charge?
It's the Captain of any flight in any airline. He/she is relient totally on the info provided by the cabin manager re cabin issues however.
Last edited by lowcostdolly; 26th Aug 2012 at 13:45.
Mod edit - personal I deal with it my way as cabin manager and thus far I have not had any real problems. I am well aware that I can (usually) count on the Captain but I have rarely needed it as I have control. When I do need it, I utilise the Captains authority. You should know as well as I do that some of our routes can be 'party buses' (not my term) and depending on the pax profile I exercise common sense and above all, discretion. That, I find, works fine.
Now I have double checked the manual and confiscating alcohol, I was incorrect but trainers did, and possibly still do, tell Crew they cannot confiscate it. I have, only a few weeks ago on a flight half full of squaddies, confiscated alcohol at a time when I thought this wasn't company policy. That shows that I manage my flights effectively. I have also never said that I allow passengers to drink own alcohol. I did however say that I'd rather pax drink alcohol that I had served them than drink their own, a policy I still stand by. You of all people should know how bloody hard it is to catch people drinking their own booze. How many times have you come across empty bottles on turn around???
A couple of people have taken my posts completely the wrong way and they have also judged me on my performance with no real evidence in which to substantiate it. To her credit, jester lady has PM'd me and realised this even of we don't agree so please afford me that courtesy too because like I said.... I'm known to be a very competent CM at my base. Mod edit - personal
Now I have double checked the manual and confiscating alcohol, I was incorrect but trainers did, and possibly still do, tell Crew they cannot confiscate it. I have, only a few weeks ago on a flight half full of squaddies, confiscated alcohol at a time when I thought this wasn't company policy. That shows that I manage my flights effectively. I have also never said that I allow passengers to drink own alcohol. I did however say that I'd rather pax drink alcohol that I had served them than drink their own, a policy I still stand by. You of all people should know how bloody hard it is to catch people drinking their own booze. How many times have you come across empty bottles on turn around???
A couple of people have taken my posts completely the wrong way and they have also judged me on my performance with no real evidence in which to substantiate it. To her credit, jester lady has PM'd me and realised this even of we don't agree so please afford me that courtesy too because like I said.... I'm known to be a very competent CM at my base. Mod edit - personal
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Please, everybody involved, keep this away from the personal.
I have to confess that this kind of issue is one of those that eventually persuaded me to leave LoCo/Charter flying after a very long time and move to Sched/Longhaul. During the final 6 months of my charter work, I had 15 customers refused boarding at the gate, 12 removed immediately prior to departure, 7 arrested on arrival and I was punched twice. All this excludes the routine incidents involving low-level drunken behaviour and abuse. For the longest time, I justified going to work by thinking of the other customers - those that sat peacefully, behaved well and with courtesy and respect and were as appalled by the actions of the few as the crew: They, of course, were in the overwhelming majority. There is, however, only so much you can take.
Decisions about the potential for trouble from a group are complicated, and require the application of both the rules and an element of experience, skill and judgement. Most of the time, you will be correct, but occasionally you get it wrong and when you do there will be no shortage of armchair experts who will criticise that decision with hindsight from the safety of an office, or the anonymity of PPRuNe.
Such incidents on Sched/Longhaul are rare, although they do occur from time to time, and, interestingly, are as likely to be in the premium cabins as in economy.
I came to the conclusion long ago that the real source of the problem is British social culture. Doubtless many will disagree, but it has been my experience that these kinds of problems are far less likely to occur on aircraft operating on routes that do not begin or end, in Britain.
I have to confess that this kind of issue is one of those that eventually persuaded me to leave LoCo/Charter flying after a very long time and move to Sched/Longhaul. During the final 6 months of my charter work, I had 15 customers refused boarding at the gate, 12 removed immediately prior to departure, 7 arrested on arrival and I was punched twice. All this excludes the routine incidents involving low-level drunken behaviour and abuse. For the longest time, I justified going to work by thinking of the other customers - those that sat peacefully, behaved well and with courtesy and respect and were as appalled by the actions of the few as the crew: They, of course, were in the overwhelming majority. There is, however, only so much you can take.
Decisions about the potential for trouble from a group are complicated, and require the application of both the rules and an element of experience, skill and judgement. Most of the time, you will be correct, but occasionally you get it wrong and when you do there will be no shortage of armchair experts who will criticise that decision with hindsight from the safety of an office, or the anonymity of PPRuNe.
Such incidents on Sched/Longhaul are rare, although they do occur from time to time, and, interestingly, are as likely to be in the premium cabins as in economy.
I came to the conclusion long ago that the real source of the problem is British social culture. Doubtless many will disagree, but it has been my experience that these kinds of problems are far less likely to occur on aircraft operating on routes that do not begin or end, in Britain.
You might be interested to know then, without going into specifics, that the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...
Then again that might be more due to size and length of routes flown than of any tendency towards violence. I think Long Haul actually has more potential for things to kick off to that point because the durations of people to be 'stuck' are much longer, and people feel very cramped whereas probably don't mind so much on a 2 or 3 hour flight
Then again that might be more due to size and length of routes flown than of any tendency towards violence. I think Long Haul actually has more potential for things to kick off to that point because the durations of people to be 'stuck' are much longer, and people feel very cramped whereas probably don't mind so much on a 2 or 3 hour flight
the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...
Is that in terms of absolute numbers ? or per passengers flown ? or per passenger miles ?
Do airlines really collaborate with each other in collating and publishing league tables ?
I'm not doubting your assertion, just interested in what your source is.
And of course in the identity of the league leader.
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...the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...
...Long Haul actually has more potential for things to kick off to that point because the durations of people to be 'stuck' are much longer, and people feel very cramped whereas probably don't mind so much on a 2 or 3 hour flight
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I'm afraid that is at variance with my experience.
On the loco's it kicks off mainly due to "experiences" at the bar pre flight which are not recognised on boarding by a vigilent CM IMHO.
Then of course they have been to duty free and purchased their own booze......
Then we have some CM's who Mod edit - personal they think they have "control" over these not so clever dicks who disrupt flights for the majority of pax who just want a nice in flight experience to HER, IBZ etc.
Nobody has control over a drunk. They don't even have control over themselves.
As CM's it is our job to ensure our majority pax get this and not continue to fuel the minority from the company bar and yes that means commision loss for us, as operating crew, unfortunately.
Mod edit - personal
I was not questioning your personal performance just the fact you don't seem up to date with the company manuel, the ANO's or the Tokyo convention re this issue yet you are, by your own admission, a CM who frequently operates "party buses" and given your base I have complete empathy with that!!
Party buses are just that. A bus in the air to get to said party in wherever which does not compromise safety en route on an EZY flight.
I have been doing 40 or more flights a year for the last 10 years, and amassed a lot of miles prior to that. All on established airlines, and I've never seen a case of drunk, awkward passengers, assaults or other troubles.
I must have been lucky. I do make a point of thanking CC and flight crew on leaving, even when (as on most US based airlines, the service is cr*p). After all, they are just as much qualified professionals in their field as I am in mine. In that time, I've had one go around (big deal - interesting, but that's all), and two pax taken ill and really well looked after by the CC.
So are there specific routes where trouble occurs? Or have I been lucky?
I must have been lucky. I do make a point of thanking CC and flight crew on leaving, even when (as on most US based airlines, the service is cr*p). After all, they are just as much qualified professionals in their field as I am in mine. In that time, I've had one go around (big deal - interesting, but that's all), and two pax taken ill and really well looked after by the CC.
So are there specific routes where trouble occurs? Or have I been lucky?
"IATA's statistics on unruly passengers are obtained from the Safety Trend Evaluation, Analysis and Data Exchange System (STEADES), a database owned and managed by IATA; to which Member airlines submit periodic reports, including such types of incidents. Statistics obtained and analysed from STEADES include only unidentified data sent by the 143 airlines who participate."
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radeng in the UK there are certainly routes trouble occurs on and a savvy SCCM knows this when it lands on their roster in any airline.
I (my own edit)wouldn't throw fuel on the fire by plying potential troublemakers with alcohol from the company bar however.... Mod edit - personal
Tightslot I cannot even recall what I said which warranted a mod edit and could have caused offense. Please would you pm me so I can ensure this does not happen again.
I (my own edit)wouldn't throw fuel on the fire by plying potential troublemakers with alcohol from the company bar however.... Mod edit - personal
Tightslot I cannot even recall what I said which warranted a mod edit and could have caused offense. Please would you pm me so I can ensure this does not happen again.
Last edited by lowcostdolly; 27th Aug 2012 at 14:01.
I (my own edit)wouldn't throw fuel on the fire by plying potential troublemakers with alcohol from the company bar however....
So are there specific routes where trouble occurs? Or have I been lucky?
Party buses are just that. A bus in the air to get to said party in wherever which does not compromise safety en route on an EZY flight
Decisions about the potential for trouble from a group are complicated, and require the application of both the rules and an element of experience, skill and judgement. Most of the time, you will be correct, but occasionally you get it wrong and when you do there will be no shortage of armchair experts who will criticise that decision with hindsight from the safety of an office, or the anonymity of PPRuNe.
I have to confess that this kind of issue is one of those that eventually persuaded me to leave LoCo/Charter flying after a very long time and move to Sched/Longhaul. During the final 6 months of my charter work, I had 15 customers refused boarding at the gate, 12 removed immediately prior to departure, 7 arrested on arrival and I was punched twice. All this excludes the routine incidents involving low-level drunken behaviour and abuse. For the longest time, I justified going to work by thinking of the other customers - those that sat peacefully, behaved well and with courtesy and respect and were as appalled by the actions of the few as the crew: They, of course, were in the overwhelming majority. There is, however, only so much you can take.
I don't agree that it is restricted to low cost at all and it is only restricted to charter because they tend to operate almost exclusively around the Med. Few legacies fly these routes and the passenger profile on European City routes on certain loco's can be very similar to that of a full service carrier.
So it's not the sector of the industry but specific to the types of destinations, narrowed down more to a particular time of the year. There will be some crew who dread the Summer holiday flights to certain destinations, some with good reason. Me personally, they're among my favourites. They can present challenges, they can be hard work but they can also be a lot of fun and the majority of my passengers seem happy which is why I guess I am confident about my performance.
Some of your new, particularly young female crew, might not have flying in their blood but for those that do a Summer season around the Med can be the making of a crew member.
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Tightslot has it spot on:
Our culture is one which appears to tollerate drunken oafs and fails to take action when their actions offend others. So when these people fly with my company they are genuinely surprised when they are told they are told to shut up, offloaded, barred from travelling, arrested, imprisoned etc. On orange flights it forces the likes of easyflier83 to really work hard to keep her flight under control. She shouldn't have to do it. Where I am we only ask that people do as they are told and allow their fellow passengers to enjoy their flight. As has been mentioned above, it's only a tiny minority who make other people's lives a misery - but their effect on some flights is totally disproportionate to the numbers involved.
...the real source of the problem is British social culture.
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givemewings
Would you mind responding to the previous questions from myself and DaveReidUK. To refresh your memory, you posted that...
and our question was...
Preferably accompanied by a name for the airline, and the source (Presumably it isn't secret?)
I look forward to your response. Thanks.
Would you mind responding to the previous questions from myself and DaveReidUK. To refresh your memory, you posted that...
...the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...
Is that in terms of absolute numbers ? or per passengers flown ? or per passenger miles ?
I look forward to your response. Thanks.
On orange flights it forces the likes of easyflier83 to really work hard to keep her flight under control. She shouldn't have to do it.
I don't look the stereotypical male crew member
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Some of your new, particularly young female crew, might not have flying in their blood but for those that do a Summer season around the Med can be the making of a crew member.
And you a male crew member easyflyer tut tut I am not so young female crew and as SCCM have done more med circuits than you who apparently has not even done some at all to be able to comment in an informed way on this thread.
Here is the bottom line Hun. As CM's we identify problems on the ground and preferably at the gate with good comms with the dispatcher. We then pass these onto the Captain who is in charge of these flights and together we make a decision. That is CRM 101.
Of course some will be able to make it to the plane in a reasonable manner and shut up for the safety demo. Then they make it into the air assuming you let them get up on taxi without telling the Captain
You think you are "in control" in the air of a drunk??. You need to ditch the ego trip right now easyflyer as you are on a pax forum. Nobody controls a drunk and the person who actually has control in the flight deck at whatever stage of flight or on the ground is actually beyond your control as the CM. You report to that person.
Get a grip......it's not all about you and your performance on this thread. See the bigger picture as many pax will due to your posts and will probably never fly orange again out of your base. I know I wouldn't as keep plying the loud, lively and unruly with alchohol is inviting trouble and all because you feel you have control as a CM??.
Personally I just wouldn't sell them alchohol end of at the risk of being that "finger wagging" crew member. When they then order 10 cokes/tonics and lemonades with ice it sort of alerts you to the fact they might just possibly be drinking their own booze and makes all crew more vigilent provided this is communicated. Personally I don't find many empty bottles on turnaround as I confiscate what they have and give it back when they get off.
All IMHO as a colleague. And to get back to thread topic the Captain is in charge but relient on the CM for cabin issues right from check in in the briefing room.
I'm guessing not many flight crew would disagree here.
No sexism there then And you a male crew member easyflyer tut tut
I am not so young female crew and as SCCM have done more med circuits than you who apparently has not even done some at all to be able to comment in an informed way on this thread.
And you a male crew member easyflyer tut tut I am not so young female crew and as SCCM have done more med circuits than you who apparently has not even done some at all to be able to comment in an informed way on this thread.
Here is the bottom line Hun. As CM's we identify problems on the ground and preferably at the gate with good comms with the dispatcher. We then pass these onto the Captain who is in charge of these flights and together we make a decision. That is CRM 101.
You think you are "in control" in the air of a drunk??. You need to ditch the ego trip right now easyflyer as you are on a pax forum. Nobody controls a drunk and the person who actually has control in the flight deck at whatever stage of flight or on the ground is actually beyond your control as the CM. You report to that person.
Get a grip......it's not all about you and your performance on this thread. See the bigger picture as many pax will due to your posts and will probably never fly orange again out of your base. I know I wouldn't as keep plying the loud, lively and unruly with alchohol is inviting trouble and all because you feel you have control as a CM??.
When they then order 10 cokes/tonics and lemonades with ice it sort of alerts you to the fact they might just possibly be drinking their own booze and makes all crew more vigilent provided this is communicated.
All IMHO as a colleague. And to get back to thread topic the Captain is in charge but relient on the CM for cabin issues right from check in in the briefing room.
I'm guessing not many flight crew would disagree here.
I'm guessing not many flight crew would disagree here.
I'm beginning to feel like i'm listening to an debate between you and your split personality.
Last edited by easyflyer83; 28th Aug 2012 at 18:11.
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Are you reading too much into easyflier83's statement?
(Although I disagree with her about her company's policy on the seating scrum, pricing and other such stuff)
No David, I don't think I am.
based on easy'83's posts, I'd happily have her working with me
