How bad can it get in cattle class?
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Just be happy that competition keeps the economy price down otherwise it wouldn't be possible for most people to enjoy their holidays in other parts of the world.
I took my family to Orlando last Easter, i flew an American legacy airline named after a river entrance, in economy.I used them because they were the cheapest, 6 adults and a childs' fares cost about the same as one business class ticket to Australia (or New York). I didn't expect much but the experience was adequate and good value for money. The aeroplane was clean and the seats were adequate for the journey, the cabin crew were efficient but didn't look as if they were enjoying their work so the smiles were missing. The food was basic but would keep you alive..
Overall i feel that i got what i paid for..
I travel to Australia every year to see family i try to fly business if i can get a reasonable deal, being retired i can be flexible in my timing. The price of a business fare has increased by at least £1k in the last five years but economy has stayed about the same. I think that standards of food and wine in business class have dropped in the last five years so if that has happened with a price increase the fall in standards in economy may well be greater.
I suspect i will be finding out soon because as business fares increase they are just about beyond my price bracket!!
I took my family to Orlando last Easter, i flew an American legacy airline named after a river entrance, in economy.I used them because they were the cheapest, 6 adults and a childs' fares cost about the same as one business class ticket to Australia (or New York). I didn't expect much but the experience was adequate and good value for money. The aeroplane was clean and the seats were adequate for the journey, the cabin crew were efficient but didn't look as if they were enjoying their work so the smiles were missing. The food was basic but would keep you alive..
Overall i feel that i got what i paid for..
I travel to Australia every year to see family i try to fly business if i can get a reasonable deal, being retired i can be flexible in my timing. The price of a business fare has increased by at least £1k in the last five years but economy has stayed about the same. I think that standards of food and wine in business class have dropped in the last five years so if that has happened with a price increase the fall in standards in economy may well be greater.
I suspect i will be finding out soon because as business fares increase they are just about beyond my price bracket!!
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not all bad...
not all airlines are poor in economy.
living near london city, we've used swiss to zurich or geneva with onward connections with edelweiss. although closely linked to swiss, their comfort and catering are several notches up.
also, our son flew malaysia long distance recently and thought it more than adequate.
it pays to shop around , not just on price but on comfort too.
living near london city, we've used swiss to zurich or geneva with onward connections with edelweiss. although closely linked to swiss, their comfort and catering are several notches up.
also, our son flew malaysia long distance recently and thought it more than adequate.
it pays to shop around , not just on price but on comfort too.
Is it worth pointing out that there is one fundamental difference that applies - namely that cattle don't have a choice?
Cattle don't pay your wages.....
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Have been quite pleased with LH service in economy over the past 15 years. Not only is the service much better than, say, United, but the seats are, too. Best yet was on one of the new A380s, FRA to SFO. Will get to experience for the first time next month FRA to PHL on LH (A340) and SFO to ZRH on LX (A330).
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Took an overnight flight on EI this past weekend.
Three and a half hours in, I was blasted awake by a PA announcement about duty free prices broadcast at top volume.
I doubt I was the only one woken...
Three and a half hours in, I was blasted awake by a PA announcement about duty free prices broadcast at top volume.
I doubt I was the only one woken...
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Noxegon
Three and a half hours in, I was blasted awake by a PA announcement about duty free prices broadcast at top volume.
But I agree with you. If people do manage to get some sleep, why can't they just leave them alone?
Thread Starter
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I am the originator of this thread. Have just done BRS-AMS-BLL-AMS-BRS with KLM. At bag drop got told to leave head of queue as it was business class (no obvious notice to that effect) and get into economy line. No one there offered place ahead of themselves. Then having progressed to head was called upon to go to where I would have been processed had I not been told to move.
Showed slight irritation but got really mad when I understood, having begged clarification, that because the plane (Fokker 70/100) was going to be pretty full, I would have to leave my "trolley" hand luggage on the ground before boarding and collect the same way at the other end. Now when you are of a certain age and the combinations and permutations of luggage logistics leave your head reeling, that is the last thing you want to be told. Then as you are lining up and about to emerge air-side into the early morning murk an announcement tells you not to leave any valuables in your hand luggage should you be depositing it on the tarmac. Cross pax exchange stories of how they had lost jewellery in similar circumstances.
Happy to report no losses at AMS, and that that one sector was the only one of four on which the separation with luggage occurred. Bags no smaller than my wheelie, perhaps bigger, had been allowed in the cabin on the Fokker.
About a four hour trip each way. Total sustenance from airline: 2x15g "mini nacho chips", 1x20g "mini cookies choc chip and orange". Pretty horrible stuff so small quantities a consolation. One cup tea, 250ml beer. On return: 2x15g of the dreaded corn snacks; but HEY! 2x185ml red Chilean.
Showed slight irritation but got really mad when I understood, having begged clarification, that because the plane (Fokker 70/100) was going to be pretty full, I would have to leave my "trolley" hand luggage on the ground before boarding and collect the same way at the other end. Now when you are of a certain age and the combinations and permutations of luggage logistics leave your head reeling, that is the last thing you want to be told. Then as you are lining up and about to emerge air-side into the early morning murk an announcement tells you not to leave any valuables in your hand luggage should you be depositing it on the tarmac. Cross pax exchange stories of how they had lost jewellery in similar circumstances.
Happy to report no losses at AMS, and that that one sector was the only one of four on which the separation with luggage occurred. Bags no smaller than my wheelie, perhaps bigger, had been allowed in the cabin on the Fokker.
About a four hour trip each way. Total sustenance from airline: 2x15g "mini nacho chips", 1x20g "mini cookies choc chip and orange". Pretty horrible stuff so small quantities a consolation. One cup tea, 250ml beer. On return: 2x15g of the dreaded corn snacks; but HEY! 2x185ml red Chilean.
Avoid imitations
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Not too long ago, airline travel was normally a very enjoyable part of a vacation.
Now, it's a total ordeal that must be endured to get to the vacation resort.
The simple answer is to take your business to another airline or to avoid air travel altogether if travelling on vacation.
Unfortunately, it seems that there is a downward spiral with regard to customer service, unless you can afford to pay for "First Class" or its equivalent. Some staff seem to hide behind "the regulations" as an excuse to provide a sub-standard service.
Now, it's a total ordeal that must be endured to get to the vacation resort.
The simple answer is to take your business to another airline or to avoid air travel altogether if travelling on vacation.
Unfortunately, it seems that there is a downward spiral with regard to customer service, unless you can afford to pay for "First Class" or its equivalent. Some staff seem to hide behind "the regulations" as an excuse to provide a sub-standard service.
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I can't believe nobody has mentioned Thomas Cook. The seat spacing in their 757s is ludicrous.
I reluctantly flew with Ryanair to Tenerife last month and was pleasantly surprised with the (relative) improvement in space at half the price.
I've always found Virgin to be very satisfactory on transatlantic flights.
I reluctantly flew with Ryanair to Tenerife last month and was pleasantly surprised with the (relative) improvement in space at half the price.
I've always found Virgin to be very satisfactory on transatlantic flights.
It acheived its aim then. You can't sell ciggies to sleeping folk.
But I agree with you. If people do manage to get some sleep, why can't they just leave them alone?
But I agree with you. If people do manage to get some sleep, why can't they just leave them alone?
Paxing All Over The World
dfdasein Your description of bad treatment is all too familiar. It is my view that this has happened by accident (not this specific trip of course, although included). The carriers - like most companies - have sought to reduce their expenditure to the minimum and outsourcing, code share (not in this case) and hub/spoke ops do that very well.
However, each of those things moves the person dealing with the customer further from the person with responsibility. By lengthening the chain of command, the feed back of negative consequences gets diluted. Since many of the 'managers' did not grow up in the business - they don't know where to look for the bad news. They are dependent on being told bad news but it is no longer in anyone's interest to report bad news. Bad news got outlawed many years ago!!!
One of the great blunders of modern mgmt was to break up chains of command. This was done with the idea that each section/department would do it's very best and so you would improve customer service and reduce monolithical hierarcies. Of course, quite the opposite has happened! I won't bore you with why and how I think that has occurred - in my view it has.
The disconnect in baggage arrangements (discussed currently in other threads) is one of the most visible examples of the broken chain. Nothing can relink the chain of customer service, other than an extreme financial meltdown of the company and a desire (and money) of the owners to rebuild it. This happened to Continental but will not happen at KLM.
However, each of those things moves the person dealing with the customer further from the person with responsibility. By lengthening the chain of command, the feed back of negative consequences gets diluted. Since many of the 'managers' did not grow up in the business - they don't know where to look for the bad news. They are dependent on being told bad news but it is no longer in anyone's interest to report bad news. Bad news got outlawed many years ago!!!
One of the great blunders of modern mgmt was to break up chains of command. This was done with the idea that each section/department would do it's very best and so you would improve customer service and reduce monolithical hierarcies. Of course, quite the opposite has happened! I won't bore you with why and how I think that has occurred - in my view it has.
The disconnect in baggage arrangements (discussed currently in other threads) is one of the most visible examples of the broken chain. Nothing can relink the chain of customer service, other than an extreme financial meltdown of the company and a desire (and money) of the owners to rebuild it. This happened to Continental but will not happen at KLM.
Last edited by PAXboy; 4th Jan 2012 at 19:18. Reason: typographical mistakes
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One of the great blunders of modern mgmt was to break up chains of command. This was done with the idea that each section/department would do it's very best and so you would improve customer service and reduce monolitical hierarcies. Of course, quiet the opposite has happened! I won't bore you with why and how I think that has occurred - in my view it has.
except that I would say, "one of the MANY great blunders of modern management".
I don't think there was much better 5, 10 or 15 years ago or more.
I recall a flight on BA Philly to LHR in '92 which sucked chunks (sat in the middle, at the back, a drunk overweight colleague with me, rude cabin crew, crap food nowt t' do); I had a flight from HKG to MAN via Doha before Christmas which was as perfect as an economy flight could be.
Decent seat (by an aisle), decent grub (but nowt too fancy), ample drinks (I'm off getting drunk on flights nowadays anyway), great IFE system that worked flawlessly and a quiet, subtly lit cabin that seemed spacious enough.
I recall a flight on BA Philly to LHR in '92 which sucked chunks (sat in the middle, at the back, a drunk overweight colleague with me, rude cabin crew, crap food nowt t' do); I had a flight from HKG to MAN via Doha before Christmas which was as perfect as an economy flight could be.
Decent seat (by an aisle), decent grub (but nowt too fancy), ample drinks (I'm off getting drunk on flights nowadays anyway), great IFE system that worked flawlessly and a quiet, subtly lit cabin that seemed spacious enough.
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Slight exaggeration
The food was basic but would keep you alive..
1DC, how long did this flight last? Perhaps you should have brought emergency provisions for such a long-haul journey.
1DC, how long did this flight last? Perhaps you should have brought emergency provisions for such a long-haul journey.
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Small quantities of food on KLM
I don't think what they offered complimentary was out of order for the length of flights you undertook, unfortunately KLM catering department cannot know everyone's schedules and offer each differing passenger meal base on this. They have to base it on the actual flight as the majority of people it will be their only flight with the airline that day. There is no point Going overboard and offering a three course meal that no one eats. why this is being used as an example of bad customer service I am not sure.
You say that there was no or very little in the way of business class signage for check in, yet there was a queue you had to join at the economy line, enough people obviously found the correct line so it must of existed somewhere, yes it could be bigger or more clear but it must of been there somewhere for everyone else to find. Also the fact they filtered the economy customers to the business class check in as and when they could between biz class
Customers shows good customer service, they could of made you wait even longer and just kept the lines separate.
Case sizes? That will always cause issues on smaller aircraft but the staff asked you for a reason, it maybe that you wheelie case was not the type that could be squeezed on due to the bottom wheel design but the persons bigger rucksack next to could be squashed under the seat or in the locker. That is not bad customer service, that is being honest.
You say that there was no or very little in the way of business class signage for check in, yet there was a queue you had to join at the economy line, enough people obviously found the correct line so it must of existed somewhere, yes it could be bigger or more clear but it must of been there somewhere for everyone else to find. Also the fact they filtered the economy customers to the business class check in as and when they could between biz class
Customers shows good customer service, they could of made you wait even longer and just kept the lines separate.
Case sizes? That will always cause issues on smaller aircraft but the staff asked you for a reason, it maybe that you wheelie case was not the type that could be squeezed on due to the bottom wheel design but the persons bigger rucksack next to could be squashed under the seat or in the locker. That is not bad customer service, that is being honest.