BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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I see that there are members of Unite the Union within Mixed Fleet:-__link
Would be interesting to see how many who signed the MF contract voted "Yes" to a strike though, and then to see how many actually walk out...............
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UNITE and BASSA have no collective bargaining rights for MF. Any CC member from MF that strikes would be totally unprotected and would be carrying out Wildcat sympathy action. BA could summarily dismiss them and indeed would be highly likely to.
You can be a member of a union in a workgroup without the union having any rights to speak for that workgroup. Indeed that is how many unions build membership to the point that recognition can be forced.
You can be a member of a union in a workgroup without the union having any rights to speak for that workgroup. Indeed that is how many unions build membership to the point that recognition can be forced.
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Posted on the CC thread
I think we all know what would happen to anyone who did that.
Work to rule or 'guerilla action'? If they call a strike, could they make their members turn up, but then let them "change their minds" after they have checked in for work? It would initially cause havoc
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While we are on about the difference between EF and WW crews, etc., this may be entirely coincidental, but the worst examples I have experienced of poor service, downright rudeness, and total PSR/CSD disinterest have been to and from NRT (apart from the Japanese crew members). Given that despite BA's best efforts so far, NRT trips still seem to get crewed by certain "connected" BASSA types (allegedly) to earn the big money, this would seem to point very specifically at where the performance issues lie within the CC community.
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Not Langley,
There are some Unite members in Mixed Fleet because some current crew moved over there. Bassa and unite does not have a right to negotiate on their behalf although it was offered this in the agreements but it will be a totally separate negotiating process to WW and E/F much like Gatwick is at present.
Incidentally there are a number of people that striked working as CSMs on Mixed Fleet, that went over to get promotion but of course as mentioned they wont be able to strike this time! I think they changed their minds about striking, maybe tempted by a doubling of their basic!!!!! Or maybe they just realised how silly this strike is!!
There are some Unite members in Mixed Fleet because some current crew moved over there. Bassa and unite does not have a right to negotiate on their behalf although it was offered this in the agreements but it will be a totally separate negotiating process to WW and E/F much like Gatwick is at present.
Incidentally there are a number of people that striked working as CSMs on Mixed Fleet, that went over to get promotion but of course as mentioned they wont be able to strike this time! I think they changed their minds about striking, maybe tempted by a doubling of their basic!!!!! Or maybe they just realised how silly this strike is!!
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There was a simliar suggestion, Hipennine, on Flyertalk sometime ago, with regular pax of the Singapore and Narita routes saying they are the absolute worst BA experiences to be had anywhere. Being in the know about who reportedly gets first dibs on those routes, they were surmising a similar reason. But who knows.
A few said that after some appalling trips, they kept BA for all of their other regular travel to keep their Gold and Silver status, but went to other carriers for those two routes.
p.s. BG, you present a thorny imponderable. What if those Unite or BASSA members who have transferred to mixed fleet received a ballot and voted by mistake? Oh dear! That should give BA's lawyers something to do on Monday.
A few said that after some appalling trips, they kept BA for all of their other regular travel to keep their Gold and Silver status, but went to other carriers for those two routes.
p.s. BG, you present a thorny imponderable. What if those Unite or BASSA members who have transferred to mixed fleet received a ballot and voted by mistake? Oh dear! That should give BA's lawyers something to do on Monday.
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I know all these examples sound bad but you do need to bear in mind that usually only disaffected people post on forums. Those that are happy just don't bother.
On a brighter note BA just won an award for being best business shorthaul airline, second time this year that shorthaul has won an award, so that made me feel proud.
On a brighter note BA just won an award for being best business shorthaul airline, second time this year that shorthaul has won an award, so that made me feel proud.
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Flyertalk isn't all curmudgeons. It runs the gamut. There are compliments and positive postings, too. I seem to recall the ones who complained about those two routes were regulars and had all sorts of postings. They just said those two stood out as real losers for BA in the service department.
But the 10,000th thread of "why can't i choose my seat when i bought my ticket" does wear me out sometimes. Not to mention the "can i take a baby into the upper deck" to which the regulars will scream in horror and abuse the poor parent to entertain themselves a bit.
But they do not seem in the least concerned over there about the current strike ballot. Most of us didn't experience much disruption during the last strikes. A changed flight time on the same day, maybe, not much more.
Only the newbies to BA will fret this time. Or those taking a complicated trip of a lifetime--it's hardest on them.
But the 10,000th thread of "why can't i choose my seat when i bought my ticket" does wear me out sometimes. Not to mention the "can i take a baby into the upper deck" to which the regulars will scream in horror and abuse the poor parent to entertain themselves a bit.
But they do not seem in the least concerned over there about the current strike ballot. Most of us didn't experience much disruption during the last strikes. A changed flight time on the same day, maybe, not much more.
Only the newbies to BA will fret this time. Or those taking a complicated trip of a lifetime--it's hardest on them.
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the Contract of CSM in Mixed Fleet
Betty Girl said
_ However from another source I get this
_Surely if CSMs in Mixed Fleet are grade3 managers they are not elligible to belong to a cabin crew local unit of Unite (such as BASSA or cc89)._ Does this not mean that ultimately in Mixed Crew there would be some who belong to a BASSA type local unit of Unite, and some who belong to a BACSM local unit of Unite?
If so this is a good thing because Mixed Crew CSMs will not become Chairman, Secretary etc of BASSA or BASSA2.
Incidentally there are a number of people that striked working as CSMs on Mixed Fleet
The CSMs are "BA managers who fly". As a grade 3 manager we sit right alongside other managers in the airline and our career path is expected to take us out of flying eventually into other senior positions. We will have a team of fifteen crew who we recruit, train and manage through their whole time with us.
If so this is a good thing because Mixed Crew CSMs will not become Chairman, Secretary etc of BASSA or BASSA2.
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Well I don't know if that is true or not but some did strike and they were in Bassa. The majority of them did not strike and have left Bassa or came from other airlines.
From what I hear they are really busy ALL the time either flying or managing their crew so I really think Unite put that on that letter for effect in reality because they haven't yet come to any agreement with BA about Mixed Fleet.
From what I hear they are really busy ALL the time either flying or managing their crew so I really think Unite put that on that letter for effect in reality because they haven't yet come to any agreement with BA about Mixed Fleet.
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Baggersup,
interesting what you say about the Singapore. I haven't flown that route with BA, but my son has and says the same. In fact his only experience of BA longhaul is on those two routes, and this has totally coloured his view of BA and travelling anywhere with them.
interesting what you say about the Singapore. I haven't flown that route with BA, but my son has and says the same. In fact his only experience of BA longhaul is on those two routes, and this has totally coloured his view of BA and travelling anywhere with them.
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Betty
On a brighter note BA just won an award for being best business shorthaul airline, second time this year that shorthaul has won an award, so that made me feel proud.
It is unfortunately my experience that the WW service is more often than not the poor relation to that experienced on SH. My brother, who spends a couple of hundred thousand pounds per year on LH flights, reacts most violently when I suggest he uses BA. Work really is needed to bring LH up to the required standard consistently.
Mystery shoppers and consequences for poor performance, I fear nothing else is going to achieve it.
It saddens me as a firm believer in unions that I think the sooner that the element, large or small, of crew dragging BA down are removed the better.
I’m further bothered by the fact that further IA may turn out to be the best way to achieve it also.
It’s all rather terrible.
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Betty Girl wrote on the CC thread:
"I will admit that the version that the Union has to sign has bits about not taking BA to court and re-working the way they deal with BA and I think this is the sticking point and NOT what BA is offering us crew as safeguards because they are as good as they have ever been before. I think you will agree that BA have always been a good employer."
From a personal view, adding clauses in the Unite/BA Settlement Agreement to the effect of not taking BA to court in the future, etc. which are not in BA's current Employment Agreement offer seems offensive and unfair and appears to have caused a sticking point as BG has pointed out.
However, it is very important to understand that clauses of this nature are always written into Settlement Agreements between two entities otherwise the Agreement simply cannot happen. There will be similar counter clauses that BA cannot sue Unite in the future either and the clauses will contain language restricting them to those matters that relate to the terms of the Settlement Agreement only. Otherwise, how could two parties be deemed to have agreed to settle if one can sue the other over the very same issues again the next day?
Unfortunately, as has often happened in this dispute, the Union personalises everything and fails to see the bigger corporate picture in these matters. Something that it must learn to develop a more professional skill set over if it is to better represent its members in future - starting with taking down the picture of WW with red eyes on its public website home page!
With a corporate, rather than a personal, understanding of the above I agree with BG that BA's current Employment offer to its employees and further that its Settlement offer to Unite are indeed very good Agreements for all.
AVF
"I will admit that the version that the Union has to sign has bits about not taking BA to court and re-working the way they deal with BA and I think this is the sticking point and NOT what BA is offering us crew as safeguards because they are as good as they have ever been before. I think you will agree that BA have always been a good employer."
From a personal view, adding clauses in the Unite/BA Settlement Agreement to the effect of not taking BA to court in the future, etc. which are not in BA's current Employment Agreement offer seems offensive and unfair and appears to have caused a sticking point as BG has pointed out.
However, it is very important to understand that clauses of this nature are always written into Settlement Agreements between two entities otherwise the Agreement simply cannot happen. There will be similar counter clauses that BA cannot sue Unite in the future either and the clauses will contain language restricting them to those matters that relate to the terms of the Settlement Agreement only. Otherwise, how could two parties be deemed to have agreed to settle if one can sue the other over the very same issues again the next day?
Unfortunately, as has often happened in this dispute, the Union personalises everything and fails to see the bigger corporate picture in these matters. Something that it must learn to develop a more professional skill set over if it is to better represent its members in future - starting with taking down the picture of WW with red eyes on its public website home page!
With a corporate, rather than a personal, understanding of the above I agree with BG that BA's current Employment offer to its employees and further that its Settlement offer to Unite are indeed very good Agreements for all.
AVF
Last edited by AV Flyer; 22nd Jan 2011 at 13:53.
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game over...
It seems to me that we're now at the end of this dispute from a passengers perspective.
The improtant details to me are:
And if BASSA play "guerilla" and threaten a strike, but then dont strike, then my travel plans are equally not affected.. would be more of a "monkey action" than "guerillla action" from my point of view.
This Game is over BASSA... you have nowhere else to go.
The only two questions now left are:
The improtant details to me are:
- 2560 members have left BASSA/Unite since BA asked for the CSD to work harder.
- A minority of cabin crew now support industrial action
- Only a fraction of those who vote yes ever actually strike
- many more will not want to lose Staff travel etc and will work
- VCC's are trained and ready to go
- Mixed fleet is up, running, and expanding
- The public knows only a small number of shorthaul flights at LHR will be affected
- The public knows in the unlikely event of a cancellation they will get re-booked onto other services
And if BASSA play "guerilla" and threaten a strike, but then dont strike, then my travel plans are equally not affected.. would be more of a "monkey action" than "guerillla action" from my point of view.
This Game is over BASSA... you have nowhere else to go.
The only two questions now left are:
- How much longer it takes BASSA to realise they have lost, and
- How BA chooses to deal with this militant residue.... I know what I would do...
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While the rhetoric from Unite is all about the percentages BA quietly respond with a sobering message (from Sky News):
Any guesses on how many of those who voted "Yes" will actually risk their jobs by striking??? What can Unite do to save this situation when faced with an intransigent and extremist BASSA and Amicus leadership?
...and how sorry does anyone feel for Mr. Len McCluskey that the political events of the day made his blustering a non-event?
A BA spokesperson said the strike showed Unite did not have the support of the majority of cabin crew.
"Of our 13,500 crew, only 43 per cent voted in favour of strike action in this ballot.
"Unite has lost about 2,500 cabin crew members since this dispute started, as crew have voted with their feet.
"Even with a smaller membership, the proportion of Unite members supporting disruption continues to fall, contrary to the union's claims.
"Of our 13,500 crew, only 43 per cent voted in favour of strike action in this ballot.
"Unite has lost about 2,500 cabin crew members since this dispute started, as crew have voted with their feet.
"Even with a smaller membership, the proportion of Unite members supporting disruption continues to fall, contrary to the union's claims.
...and how sorry does anyone feel for Mr. Len McCluskey that the political events of the day made his blustering a non-event?
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Richard228 said
I wonder if I might correct you._ Actually the number is 1557._ The extra 1003 were cabin crew who took early retirement (the package was called voluntary redundancy).
Diplome quotes Sky News quoting BA spokeperson who makes the same claim, exaggerating the 1557 number by about 1000
2560 members have left BASSA/Unite since BA asked for the CSD to work harder
Diplome quotes Sky News quoting BA spokeperson who makes the same claim, exaggerating the 1557 number by about 1000
Unite has lost about 2,500 cabin crew members since this dispute started, as crew have voted with their feet.