BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
Democracy and representation…
There’s always a dilemma when you have a majority of employees in a particular group who want to be represented by a union and a minority who don’t. As I recall BALPA (and I am sure others) resolved this “in the old days” with a “union shop” arrangement with BA. While a “closed shop” makes membership of the union a condition of employment, in a “union shop” the terms and conditions of all the employees (e.g. pilots) are negotiated with the union (e.g. BALPA), but the employees aren’t required to actually join the union. If the union negotiates benefits the non-members get them too. As the union members are also paying dues by payroll deduction (in BALPA’s case I think it was/is 1% of salary) the non-members were getting not just a free ride in terms of negotiation but actually were better off financially, so they also had the equivalent of the union subs deducted but this was paid to a charity of their own nomination.
To avoid the issue of the company controlling the ability of union representatives to have time to do business, (refusing to “de-roster”) there was a deal whereby a “pool” of work days was controlled by the union General Secretary, who decided what meetings should be attended and by whom. The union calculated how much time it needed for representation, and how many full-time people that was equivalent to. These is was paid for either by all employees giving a day off a year (I think), or the total head-count was increased by this number. The company didn’t pay an increased overall payroll cost, as when their global pay bill was divided by this increased number, every employee effectively then took a tiny pay cut to pay for them. I can’t recall all the exact details and it may have been some combination of both, but it worked pretty effectively.
To avoid the issue of the company controlling the ability of union representatives to have time to do business, (refusing to “de-roster”) there was a deal whereby a “pool” of work days was controlled by the union General Secretary, who decided what meetings should be attended and by whom. The union calculated how much time it needed for representation, and how many full-time people that was equivalent to. These is was paid for either by all employees giving a day off a year (I think), or the total head-count was increased by this number. The company didn’t pay an increased overall payroll cost, as when their global pay bill was divided by this increased number, every employee effectively then took a tiny pay cut to pay for them. I can’t recall all the exact details and it may have been some combination of both, but it worked pretty effectively.
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Juan Tugoh
I have never heard of secret postal ballots in North Korea.
I believe reform is needed. You make a solid argument that closed shops are a bad thing, based on history. With the current system, 25%+1 of a workplace can decide what the other 75%-1 will get. Fair? Not really.
I believe reform is needed. You make a solid argument that closed shops are a bad thing, based on history. With the current system, 25%+1 of a workplace can decide what the other 75%-1 will get. Fair? Not really.
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With the current system, 25%+1 of a workplace can decide what the other 75%-1 will get
While we have a law that allows a very small majority of workers to force union recognition and collective bargaining on a company this problem will not go away - perhaps all deals should be put to all workers irrespective of union membership and the result be binding on the union. That way the union controls the issues they are prepared to negotiate on, but has to abide by the will of all workers. The union controls the argument but not the result. It would also encourage the union to be more inclusive, to have to take into account the views of those that disagree with them.
Whatever the solution may be, I remain convinced that forcing people to be part of a union is anti democratic and counter productive, even inimical to the well being of the company.
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I'm a little bit appaled by the ongoing discussion on the CC thread.
Apparently it is felt that the new LHR MF pay is too low and folk can't live on it.
I've got news for you, it is, as far as I know, very similar to what existing LGW BA crew are earning now, you know the ones that have some members of Unite among them.
The ones that BASSA offered a paycut for!
So if MF pay is low, what are you going to do about LGW crew?
(and before anyone greets this with shock, the LGW pay has often been mentioned amongst all these threads - but it's all about LHR isn't it?)
Apparently it is felt that the new LHR MF pay is too low and folk can't live on it.
I've got news for you, it is, as far as I know, very similar to what existing LGW BA crew are earning now, you know the ones that have some members of Unite among them.
The ones that BASSA offered a paycut for!
So if MF pay is low, what are you going to do about LGW crew?
(and before anyone greets this with shock, the LGW pay has often been mentioned amongst all these threads - but it's all about LHR isn't it?)
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I would quite happily in principle remove the requirement to belong to a union and have 50%+1 membership, to allow negotiating rights, if the same rights were given to workplace forums. You could still ballot the workplace to see if a collective approach was wanted.
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In fact the starting salary at LGW is LOWER than MF at £10,815.
Some of the T & C's are better (perhaps)
So go on, I dare someone who can to post this in the CC thread for some of the BASSA supporters to answer/discuss!
Some of the T & C's are better (perhaps)
So go on, I dare someone who can to post this in the CC thread for some of the BASSA supporters to answer/discuss!
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I am not sure that union membership is in itself is an issue. It benefits both workers and employer to have collective bargaining. What causes problems is when a union (like BASSA) does not represent a significant proportion of the workforce and a large number of that union (who have a voice due their membership of said union) cannot be bothered to vote, thus allowing a small, vocal and militant minority to effectively dictate to the majority of workers when they are in dispute with the company.
It has been mooted before that it should be a majority of employees not a majority on union members that voted that should be the litmus test before IA is allowed to happen. This would not prevent IA for genuinely held widespread issues to be given their ultimate expression, but would prevent the worst excesses of union power.
It would also perhaps encourage more people to vote and to be aware of the issues at their workplace.
It has been mooted before that it should be a majority of employees not a majority on union members that voted that should be the litmus test before IA is allowed to happen. This would not prevent IA for genuinely held widespread issues to be given their ultimate expression, but would prevent the worst excesses of union power.
It would also perhaps encourage more people to vote and to be aware of the issues at their workplace.
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west lakes:
I believe what you are seeing with some of the posts regarding Mixed Fleet is simply a reaction to a perceived (and potentially real) threat to the legacy crew of BA.
The simple fact is that the salary is comparable to Gatwick.
As I've stated before, the proof will be the quality of applicants and the customer service provided by Mixed Fleet. If the results are negative they are negative.
However, if the results are positive, and BA has managed to provide a Fleet with high passenger satisfaction rates, and Mixed Fleet stays more flexible and realistic in their approach, then Legacy Crew has a problem with the argument "We're paid more because we're better".
I'm looking forward to experiencing Mixed Fleet's product.
As for the Closed Shop issue...the most obvious argument against such a notion is Duncan Holley. Being forced to let an individual such as that "speak for me" is enough to send many a thinking person running.
I believe what you are seeing with some of the posts regarding Mixed Fleet is simply a reaction to a perceived (and potentially real) threat to the legacy crew of BA.
The simple fact is that the salary is comparable to Gatwick.
As I've stated before, the proof will be the quality of applicants and the customer service provided by Mixed Fleet. If the results are negative they are negative.
However, if the results are positive, and BA has managed to provide a Fleet with high passenger satisfaction rates, and Mixed Fleet stays more flexible and realistic in their approach, then Legacy Crew has a problem with the argument "We're paid more because we're better".
I'm looking forward to experiencing Mixed Fleet's product.
As for the Closed Shop issue...the most obvious argument against such a notion is Duncan Holley. Being forced to let an individual such as that "speak for me" is enough to send many a thinking person running.
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As for the Closed Shop issue...the most obvious argument against such a notion is Duncan Holley. Being forced to let an individual such as that "speak for me" is enough to send many a thinking person running.
The idea of being forced into membership with people such as those I have come to know so well since the start of this would indeed cause me to seriously consider taking employment in the first please were I to have known in advance what they were made off.
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If current LHR crew really are so concerned about the salaries of Mixed Fleet there is still tens of millions of productivity savings that could be unlocked from current restrictive practices that could fund salary increases for Mixed Fleet.
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a reaction to a perceived (and potentially real) threat to the legacy crew of BA
then Legacy Crew has a problem with the argument "We're paid more because we're better
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This is so spot on the mark it hurt me laughing.
The idea of being forced into membership with people such as those I have come to know so well since the start of this would indeed cause me to seriously consider taking employment in the first please were I to have known in advance what they were made off.
The idea of being forced into membership with people such as those I have come to know so well since the start of this would indeed cause me to seriously consider taking employment in the first please were I to have known in advance what they were made off.
I rarely bother to comment despite reading this forum regularly but I thought this rather lighthearted article on the dangers of closed shop unions and how they destroy a union as surely as incompetent management.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/dri...icle384268.ece
No closed shop has ever resulted in long term stability - just closure of the company in question.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/dri...icle384268.ece
No closed shop has ever resulted in long term stability - just closure of the company in question.
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I’m struggling to remember (so much has happened) but did the last consultative ballot, the quickie that BASSA ran themselves that rejected the last BA offer, include Gatwick crew. For some reason I seem to recall that it didn’t. But I may well be wrong of course.
Anyway, the question is will this one be including them?
Anyway, the question is will this one be including them?
Last edited by Snas; 26th Oct 2010 at 11:49.
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Very true. That is what happens when you look at one thing in isolation. It is similar to looking at a period in one decade to show unions are bad. Yes, it was the unions fault, but things move on.
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If you wish to have a different point of view, then fine. At least make it different to the point that was being made.