BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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If what you say is true and I have no reason to doubt you, then it is no wonder that the rest of BA feel the way they do about BASSA, if PPRuNe is the majority opinion. However, if you read other forums, that view changes.
Está servira para distraerle.
So, Ancient Observer, at the end of that extremely interesting post of yours, and purely because I'm too lazy to research it, what was the appeal judgement or guidance on reasonable time off for union duties?
But work loads for union business such as balloting and the like in 1982 must be a far cry from those of today where the Internet and perhaps reduced numbers of union members surely enormously reduces time required for extraneous duties associated with union management. So any guidance from the Court of Appeal in 1982 would have been predicated on old working practices?
But work loads for union business such as balloting and the like in 1982 must be a far cry from those of today where the Internet and perhaps reduced numbers of union members surely enormously reduces time required for extraneous duties associated with union management. So any guidance from the Court of Appeal in 1982 would have been predicated on old working practices?
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Blimey, Fin, I am not surprised you are one concerned shareholder.
45, 000 quid divided by 20 hours = 2,150 quid per hour!
I think BALPA should be told!
45, 000 quid divided by 20 hours = 2,150 quid per hour!
I think BALPA should be told!
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Litebulbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUAN TRIPP
Well said. The problem has been that generally MOST reps have used the system to get out of unwanted trips. One rep told me last year that there was a majority who would use EVERY opportunity to do ANY other work, disciplineries, office duties etc rather than fly.
Litebulbs wrote in reply
If what you say is true and I have no reason to doubt you, then it is no wonder that the rest of BA feel the way they do about BASSA, if PPRuNe is the majority opinion. However, if you read other forums, that view changes.
Originally Posted by JUAN TRIPP
Well said. The problem has been that generally MOST reps have used the system to get out of unwanted trips. One rep told me last year that there was a majority who would use EVERY opportunity to do ANY other work, disciplineries, office duties etc rather than fly.
Litebulbs wrote in reply
If what you say is true and I have no reason to doubt you, then it is no wonder that the rest of BA feel the way they do about BASSA, if PPRuNe is the majority opinion. However, if you read other forums, that view changes.
I have over the years got to know a number of people within cabin services, and the ones who I trust and who trust me have mentioned MANY scenarios about what Bassa have got upto. Now I'm not being naive, BUT as I said these are people I implicitely trust. The stories of Bassa not turning up at numerous meetings is well recorded as an example. In fact CC89 regularly got fed up of that happening to them as well. DH mentioned on radio 5live, that ALTHOUGH Bassa didn't win the 97 dispute, it meant BA brought in a more softer person to deal with them. Over the next 8 years the lovely but ineffective Joy Hordern ( or joy Hidden as she was known as) did pretty much everything DH and his troops wanted. Hence according to DH all was happy. It was only when WW appointed Simon Talling-Smith that things started to change.
A dear friend of mine sat in the same office as Joy for years, and used to tell me that Bassa had her EXACTLY where they wanted her. Any problems and the little threats started.
Now I know that its not that simple, but I don't think I'm far from the truth. As for putting even a percentage of what I've written on Crew forum or the Bassa forum would result in the the usual - you must be a pilot/ waterworld latte drinker, VVC etc!
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I seem to remember it being under the reign of Horden and Street that Bassa got BA Ops to divert an aircraft in flight as the crew were at risk of going outside their industrial agreement (not scheme). The lever was threats of non-cooperation. Can you imagine that happening now? Just goes to show what a crazy messed up organisation BA once was.
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There aren't many outside camp Bassa who have known all the things that they have done over the years, but I bet WW has been told/advised of many of them. Thats why what is happening now will not change and the likes of DH,LM and the rest are still it seems in deep denial
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From the GMB website
This proves that BA can negotiate and so can unions (except BASSA). Also proves that BA are not into "breaking" unions. Anyone from BASSA care to comment on the last paragraph.
It's all about working together and this proves it beyond doubt.
Ex
Monday 13th September
GMB GROUND STAFF AT BA HEATHROW OVERWHELMING VOTE TO ACCEPT DEAL TO ASSIST TO SECURE FUTURE OF THE AIRLINE
This vote is a ringing endorsement of all the hard work done by GMB workplace negotiators at BA over 12 months to secure a negotiated settlement
Over 1,000 GMB members at employed as ground staff at British Airways at Heathrow have voted by an overwhelming 97% to accept an agreement recommended by negotiators last month to assist secure the future of the airline.
This agreement concludes negotiations on this issue which began in January 2009. The main features of the new deal are agreements on new employment and staffing levels, new arrangements for meal and other breaks, new arrangements on flexibility, agreements on ongoing procedures to deal with further changes that may become necessary over the coming period. Overall employment levels will fall by 500 (some 200 have already left), all by voluntary means and with reasonably enhanced severance arrangements and with provisions for redeployment. The deal also included a one year pay freeze to October 2010.
Mick Rix, GMB National Officer for civil aviation said "This vote is a ringing endorsement of all the hard work done by GMB workplace representatives at BA over 12 months to acheive a negotiated settlement to secure a future for the airline. GMB members hope that the future for BA will be bright and that when growth resumes that the prosperity can be shared between our members and the company."
GMB GROUND STAFF AT BA HEATHROW OVERWHELMING VOTE TO ACCEPT DEAL TO ASSIST TO SECURE FUTURE OF THE AIRLINE
This vote is a ringing endorsement of all the hard work done by GMB workplace negotiators at BA over 12 months to secure a negotiated settlement
Over 1,000 GMB members at employed as ground staff at British Airways at Heathrow have voted by an overwhelming 97% to accept an agreement recommended by negotiators last month to assist secure the future of the airline.
This agreement concludes negotiations on this issue which began in January 2009. The main features of the new deal are agreements on new employment and staffing levels, new arrangements for meal and other breaks, new arrangements on flexibility, agreements on ongoing procedures to deal with further changes that may become necessary over the coming period. Overall employment levels will fall by 500 (some 200 have already left), all by voluntary means and with reasonably enhanced severance arrangements and with provisions for redeployment. The deal also included a one year pay freeze to October 2010.
Mick Rix, GMB National Officer for civil aviation said "This vote is a ringing endorsement of all the hard work done by GMB workplace representatives at BA over 12 months to acheive a negotiated settlement to secure a future for the airline. GMB members hope that the future for BA will be bright and that when growth resumes that the prosperity can be shared between our members and the company."
It's all about working together and this proves it beyond doubt.
Ex
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Can anybody explain to me why an organisation with 10,000 (??) , members paying £15 per month each does not employ professional staff to look after membership records, ballot organising etc. These tasks require no special sector industry knowledge. Surely, sensible convention would be that the reps represent members interest rather than undertaking the time consuming administrative minutiae ? Nor is it reasonable that an employer is compelled to release an individual rep to undertake such duties, whilst being paid by the employer ?
I can understand a union branch of say 50 people needing to do the admin voluntarily, but for a group with membership fees exceeding £1.8m pa it beggars belief. Or is there some ulterior reason for the union branch to organise this way ?
I can understand a union branch of say 50 people needing to do the admin voluntarily, but for a group with membership fees exceeding £1.8m pa it beggars belief. Or is there some ulterior reason for the union branch to organise this way ?
cavorting.
It's easy to research, there is an acas code, and all the time off
provisions were brought together in sections 168 - 170 of the Trade
Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.
Although 1982 is a long time ago, most of the post Thatcher Employment legislation in this area dates back to the 80s and earlier.
Union duties must relate to the official’s own employer
and not, for example, to any associated employer.
There is a distinction between duties and activities.
If DH has said in the public domain that he wanted the time off to update the branch records, that is, at best an activity, not a duty. Some ETs would NOT even regard it as an activity as defined by the law and acas.
Duties are to do with the relationship with the employer.
I should not repeat theacas code here. You can find it at
http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/l/q/CP03_1.pdf
Note one quote "There is no right to time off for trade union activities which themselves consist of industrial action." getting a ballot ready for Industrial action will fall in to this category.
Finally - it is the Rep's task to ASK FOR time off - not to just take it!
On the GMB deal, the GMB is run more as a business than as a "battling" TU. It is more interested in gaining members and organising the members than it is in striking - but as they've shown at Astra Zeneca, if they have to strike they will do. Both Mick Rix (Aviation) and Alan Black. (Chems/Pharms) are people who can do deals. Mick has an interesting background................
Alan should be a Prof. at a leading Business School. Quite why he's an FTO I have no idea.
It's easy to research, there is an acas code, and all the time off
provisions were brought together in sections 168 - 170 of the Trade
Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.
Although 1982 is a long time ago, most of the post Thatcher Employment legislation in this area dates back to the 80s and earlier.
Union duties must relate to the official’s own employer
and not, for example, to any associated employer.
There is a distinction between duties and activities.
If DH has said in the public domain that he wanted the time off to update the branch records, that is, at best an activity, not a duty. Some ETs would NOT even regard it as an activity as defined by the law and acas.
Duties are to do with the relationship with the employer.
I should not repeat theacas code here. You can find it at
http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/l/q/CP03_1.pdf
Note one quote "There is no right to time off for trade union activities which themselves consist of industrial action." getting a ballot ready for Industrial action will fall in to this category.
Finally - it is the Rep's task to ASK FOR time off - not to just take it!
On the GMB deal, the GMB is run more as a business than as a "battling" TU. It is more interested in gaining members and organising the members than it is in striking - but as they've shown at Astra Zeneca, if they have to strike they will do. Both Mick Rix (Aviation) and Alan Black. (Chems/Pharms) are people who can do deals. Mick has an interesting background................
Alan should be a Prof. at a leading Business School. Quite why he's an FTO I have no idea.
Está servira para distraerle.
Ancient Observer,
Thank you for that very detailed explanation to my question which I much appreciate. The ACAS document is a little open to individual interpretation I should have thought. So thank you for pointing out some of the more salient points. I would have think it reasonable to assume that anyone who was used to working within the framework of the document would be well aware of its actual boundaries. Reasonable however was always a very individual word and has often been left to the law courts in its interpretation.
Thank you for that very detailed explanation to my question which I much appreciate. The ACAS document is a little open to individual interpretation I should have thought. So thank you for pointing out some of the more salient points. I would have think it reasonable to assume that anyone who was used to working within the framework of the document would be well aware of its actual boundaries. Reasonable however was always a very individual word and has often been left to the law courts in its interpretation.
Junior trash
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On the GMB deal, the GMB is run more as a business than as a "battling" TU.
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The problem has been that generally MOST reps have used the system to get out of unwanted trips.
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Your Prayers Are Requested
It would appear that the BA strike-related threads, both here and in "the other place" are mortally ill and that their demise is imminently expected.
These long-running, contentious, but often amusing discussions have gone through a number of incarnations. Now they are being deprived of the nourishment of readers' contributions and the consequent oxygen of publicity.
While the dates of the funerals have, understandably, yet to be announced mourners are earnestly requested not to send flowers - yellow or otherwise.
Grateful thanks are extended to all contributors who expressed sympathy (or otherwise) for the causes discussed on the threads.
The probable cause of death has been diagnosed as apathy and boredom.
These long-running, contentious, but often amusing discussions have gone through a number of incarnations. Now they are being deprived of the nourishment of readers' contributions and the consequent oxygen of publicity.
While the dates of the funerals have, understandably, yet to be announced mourners are earnestly requested not to send flowers - yellow or otherwise.
Grateful thanks are extended to all contributors who expressed sympathy (or otherwise) for the causes discussed on the threads.
The probable cause of death has been diagnosed as apathy and boredom.
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 15th Sep 2010 at 17:09.
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Hello CCC ... the oxygen of publicity indeed. I now have to remind myself to read [occasionally] the outpourings on the subject, as they have become so empty of interest.
Ho-hum ... I'm flying BA, and I'm asking myself what that BASSA nausea was all about
Ho-hum ... I'm flying BA, and I'm asking myself what that BASSA nausea was all about
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Yawn!
Yes, it's all become so tiresome, so I'm off to the Military bits to see if I can inveigle Fin 84 into a bit of banter.
Back when this one generates some interest.
Back when this one generates some interest.
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TS ... you have my genuine sympathy, as you have had to read all this stuff.
However, it's nearly over now ...
... probably.
However, it's nearly over now ...
... probably.
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Given the potential for riotous assembly and unruly behaviour on this thread (and the one in 'another place') I reckon the mods have done a tremendous job in keeping it on the island. 
Thanks Mods.
Roger.
Thanks Mods.
Roger.