Oversize passengers - neighbours rights?
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How about the agents asking passengers of size if they would like to super size their seat (subject to availability). Discounted way of up selling vacant J class at the time of departure. Win win situation for all I think???
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How about the agents asking passengers of size if they would like to super size their seat
Maybe passengers should go through a measuring box, like hand baggage, to see if they would fit into a normal sized seat. Those who fail would be charged extra and checked as hold baggage or refused passage. Now there's an idea!
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Win win situation for all I think???
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So, what happens if I absolutely refuse to sit in my assigned seat which is partially occupied by a person of size? I stand in the aisle, ask for another economy seat, and barring that, a business seat. If the door is closed, what happens? If the door is open, what happens? If we have pushed off and I get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia in the A seat, what happens?
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I don't know what would happen under these circumstances.
To show one end of the spectrum, I was on a flight a few months ago where the cabin crew decided they were not going to serve alcholic or hot drinks (industrial dispute) and only announced it after pushback.
The passenger next to me called the hostess and asked to be offloaded, as he would prefer to make alternative arrangements.
To cut a long story short, the purser went white as a sheet and rushed off to the flight deck, coming back to say they couldn't return to stand.
At the end of the day, we both lodged strong complaints with the airline.
I don't know exactly what compensation he got, but I know that I received a complimentary return flight in the same class as compensation for the service delivery failure. I imagine that worked out rather less costly than missing a slot and the other financial implications of a return.
So the airline might compensate you for your troubles.
At the other end of the spectrum, I have also seen a return to stand and someone arrested for disruption under different circumstances.
Personally, I wouldn't undo my belt and stand up after departure, as you are disobeying a lawful command from the PIC.
One obvious remedy is to move the larger peeps into A&B and you to C. At least you would have breathing space on one side.
I guess a lot would depend on how you behaved and also how sympathetic the crew were on the day and whether the airline considered itself to have any responsibility (and one one need a lawyer to take a view on that.)
I don't know what would happen under these circumstances.
To show one end of the spectrum, I was on a flight a few months ago where the cabin crew decided they were not going to serve alcholic or hot drinks (industrial dispute) and only announced it after pushback.
The passenger next to me called the hostess and asked to be offloaded, as he would prefer to make alternative arrangements.
To cut a long story short, the purser went white as a sheet and rushed off to the flight deck, coming back to say they couldn't return to stand.
At the end of the day, we both lodged strong complaints with the airline.
I don't know exactly what compensation he got, but I know that I received a complimentary return flight in the same class as compensation for the service delivery failure. I imagine that worked out rather less costly than missing a slot and the other financial implications of a return.
So the airline might compensate you for your troubles.
At the other end of the spectrum, I have also seen a return to stand and someone arrested for disruption under different circumstances.
Personally, I wouldn't undo my belt and stand up after departure, as you are disobeying a lawful command from the PIC.
One obvious remedy is to move the larger peeps into A&B and you to C. At least you would have breathing space on one side.
I guess a lot would depend on how you behaved and also how sympathetic the crew were on the day and whether the airline considered itself to have any responsibility (and one one need a lawyer to take a view on that.)
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 21st Sep 2009 at 12:05.
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So, what happens if I absolutely refuse to sit in my assigned seat which is partially occupied by a person of size? I stand in the aisle, ask for another economy seat, and barring that, a business seat.
I quietly went to see the in-charge, pointed out I physically couldnt get into the seat. They moved me up (although I ended up with the eco meal - pah). All done sensibly whilst doors were open and without embarrasment caused.
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How long is a piece of string?
What would happen on the day would depend on the prevalent circumstances, the characters involved, the available resources and the degree of common sense applied. One thing that is for sure, a quick decision would be made.
If you refuse to sit in your seat, then it would depend on the reason for refusal. If it is a reason that cannot be satisfied, then the only option may be to remove you from the flight and leave it for other parties to resolve. Obviously you need to be secure in your seat for take off, and if that could not be satisfied for whatever reason, then the aircraft would have to return to stand to enable the previous option.
If another economy seat was available, I am sure that would provide the solution. If another seat in a higher class was available, that might also provide a solution, although consideration would also be given to moving the larger customer to it.
If you get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia, then the aircraft is no longer secure and the earlier option would once again come into play.
From an operational point of view, we can utilize whatever resource we have available to us, and obviously we would seek to apply common sense to any given situation. However if a situation presents itself that causes an operational problem, we will always have the ability to mitigate the problem by removing it, for others to resolve at their leisure.
What would happen on the day would depend on the prevalent circumstances, the characters involved, the available resources and the degree of common sense applied. One thing that is for sure, a quick decision would be made.
If you refuse to sit in your seat, then it would depend on the reason for refusal. If it is a reason that cannot be satisfied, then the only option may be to remove you from the flight and leave it for other parties to resolve. Obviously you need to be secure in your seat for take off, and if that could not be satisfied for whatever reason, then the aircraft would have to return to stand to enable the previous option.
If another economy seat was available, I am sure that would provide the solution. If another seat in a higher class was available, that might also provide a solution, although consideration would also be given to moving the larger customer to it.
If you get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia, then the aircraft is no longer secure and the earlier option would once again come into play.
From an operational point of view, we can utilize whatever resource we have available to us, and obviously we would seek to apply common sense to any given situation. However if a situation presents itself that causes an operational problem, we will always have the ability to mitigate the problem by removing it, for others to resolve at their leisure.
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Thanks, Bealzebub. I gather you are some sort of flight operations personnel.
If another economy seat were available, I would take it. If a business class seat were available, I would take it. If the business class seat were given to the person of size I would accept it but would seriously consider the service commitment of the airline.
I would never become hostile although I might become immovable. When I am maltreated I do seek appropriate redress.
But I think your quote,
really sums up the actual situation.
If I complain too much about the service I receive, for example, having my limited real estate occupied substantially by a person of size, what you are really saying that this is no democracy and that airline will use all the punitive tools available to it to enforce its position even if it means that my rights and my paid ticket are ignored.
So, if I did become immovable, then not only would I be removed, I would be charged with an unwarranted crime... I've seen too many of these. How about being arrested at de-embarkation for raising a stink after being stuck on the ground for countless hours.
And, I would be arrested were I to insist that I have a proper seat before the flight began.
And without implying any malfeasance on your part, this is the essential problem with airlines these days... especially US domestic carriers... I am nothing... to be ordered about... shat upon if required for operational efficiency and charged and arrested if I complain about my treatment.
If another economy seat were available, I would take it. If a business class seat were available, I would take it. If the business class seat were given to the person of size I would accept it but would seriously consider the service commitment of the airline.
I would never become hostile although I might become immovable. When I am maltreated I do seek appropriate redress.
But I think your quote,
"From an operational point of view, we can utilize whatever resource we have available to us, and obviously we would seek to apply common sense to any given situation. However if a situation presents itself that causes an operational problem, we will always have the ability to mitigate the problem by removing it, for others to resolve at their leisure"
If I complain too much about the service I receive, for example, having my limited real estate occupied substantially by a person of size, what you are really saying that this is no democracy and that airline will use all the punitive tools available to it to enforce its position even if it means that my rights and my paid ticket are ignored.
So, if I did become immovable, then not only would I be removed, I would be charged with an unwarranted crime... I've seen too many of these. How about being arrested at de-embarkation for raising a stink after being stuck on the ground for countless hours.
And, I would be arrested were I to insist that I have a proper seat before the flight began.
And without implying any malfeasance on your part, this is the essential problem with airlines these days... especially US domestic carriers... I am nothing... to be ordered about... shat upon if required for operational efficiency and charged and arrested if I complain about my treatment.
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I don't read Beazelbub's posting like you do.
The point I get is that they will do all they can to satisfy the passenger, but if they cannot, they will offload and then let the groundstaff or customer service staff to resolve the matter.
Also, I don't get why you would question the airline's service commitment, if it delivered the economy seat you bought by moving the large sized person elsewhere (as in a bigger seat.)
I don't read Beazelbub's posting like you do.
The point I get is that they will do all they can to satisfy the passenger, but if they cannot, they will offload and then let the groundstaff or customer service staff to resolve the matter.
Also, I don't get why you would question the airline's service commitment, if it delivered the economy seat you bought by moving the large sized person elsewhere (as in a bigger seat.)
Transportation in a specific class involves a product defined by ground service, cabin service, baggage allowance, seat pitch and seat width.
If someone encroaches significantly on the space that I've purchased as defined by the product in my ticket, then it's the responsibility of the other contracting party i.e. the airline to provide a remedy.
If someone encroaches significantly on the space that I've purchased as defined by the product in my ticket, then it's the responsibility of the other contracting party i.e. the airline to provide a remedy.
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Revman
I would like to think that this is indeed the case i.e. the airline has a contractual obligation to ensure that the space one has bought, whether it be Business/First/Economy or whatever, is not infringed by others but has it been put to the test? Has anyone been successfully compensated after the event should one have had to endure such compression for a whole flight?
I would happily accept being reseated elsewhere in the class that I had bought but where does one stand (or sit) if the flight is single class and fully seated?
My original post was one more of curiosity than hope but this is becoming an increasingly common problem down the back end.
I would like to think that this is indeed the case i.e. the airline has a contractual obligation to ensure that the space one has bought, whether it be Business/First/Economy or whatever, is not infringed by others but has it been put to the test? Has anyone been successfully compensated after the event should one have had to endure such compression for a whole flight?
I would happily accept being reseated elsewhere in the class that I had bought but where does one stand (or sit) if the flight is single class and fully seated?
My original post was one more of curiosity than hope but this is becoming an increasingly common problem down the back end.
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Thanks, Bealzebub. I gather you are some sort of flight operations personnel.
As well as the office holder for the job I do, like most other people, I am also a consumer, a parent, a spouse, a son and very frequently a passenger on an commercial aircraft. I am not immune to the realities of life, or the frustrations and difficulties that are faced by people in that context everyday. Like many people I take a professional pride in what I do, and get the greatest sense of satisfaction in being able to resolve a problem and being able to manage a team of other like minded people. Obviously there are times when a resolution may not turn out to be the best one, or when the only choices available have to be constrained to the lesser of two evils. But that is simply part of the reality of the job.
There can be few experienced air travellers that haven't experienced this type of discomfort on at least one occaision, as well as the whole spectrum of other travel related plagues that are part of the glorious world of low cost mass transportation these days. I doubt there is one of us that doesn't curse the cost of comfortable travel, or our employers refusal to afford us the standard of comfort, that we feel should be our right. We wonder at the manufacturers and operators seemingly strange idea that the average passenger is thin, short, patient, with staggered elbow lengths. However we all know the likely realities. On a bus or train, when your travelling companions (and probably their own embarassment is proportionate to your personal irritation,) body mass or limbs spill over into your space, you can move somewhere else or stand up. On an aircraft that isn't an option, which means you either put up with it, try and negotiate a compromise with your neighbour, ask for help with a resolution, or get off.
As I already pointed out, the application of common sense, compromise and good manners often goes a long way in resolving a problem. However if the problem cannot be resolved for whatever reason, then it must be curtailed. A flight is a time and cost critical operation, where any delay can have operational consequences that stretch far beyond the immediate problem. Ulitmately the captain is charged with making whatever decisions need to be made, and often that will be devolved or shared with somebody else within the crew.
If somebody refuses to act in accordance with an instruction, then the captain has the absolute right to have that person removed at the first available opportunity. What happens subsequently is a matter for other parties, and has no particular bearing on the immediate decision. If you feel that your "commercial rights" or indeed anything else have been violated, then you always have the same legal rights of redress that are open to everybody else.
I understand your frustration, but I also understand that the final authority on board a ship or aircraft rests with the captain. If you are dissatisfied with that concept, then you shouldn't purchase a ticket. You do have the right to complain subsequently, you do have the right not to travel. You do have the same rights as anybody else to seek redress if you wish or are advised. However you do not have the right to disrupt or interfere with the safety or regularity of the conduct of a flight without running a serious risk of facing the sanctions that are legislated to protect those aspects of a flight.
On these forums, we have the luxury of arguing a point to the 'nth degree. On an aircraft we often have to make a decision in seconds or minutes, before the problem becomes more wide ranging.
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Captain Bealzebub, I sincerely appreciate your insights and views.
Permit me to first state that I have no problem with the captain having absolute authority over the ship... I cannot imagine it being any other way. Permit me to also say that in the majority of circumstances, crew at all levels have behaved in a professional manner. I'm not new to conflict and problem resolution; as a project manager for large scale projects this consumes most of my professional life.
Most of my contracts permit me business class travel for international and economy class for domestic. So, after a relatively luxurious trip on an Asian carrier from Singapore to LAX or IAH, I get to experience the 'joys' of domestic airline service.
I observe one thing directly. The power of the captain is all to often displayed in an arrogant, controlling, and self serving manner by cabin crew, far different than what I experience on Asian carriers. Second, from indirect observation, the airlines seem to be a 'zero tolerance' environment. Those that are removed are charged.
So, even if I had a reasonable request, my experience is that I will not be treated with any compassion, indeed, I will be treated as a trouble maker, with no recourse, and if you as the captain, did decide to eject me, I get the whole book thrown at me... kind of like the zero tolerance policies that get school kids expelled for drugs... except the drugs were an asthma inhalant or a prescription medicine.
You could call me jaded and be exactly right. I've been flying for business since 1967, and the overall changes that I have seen are dismal. It's not only about the increased packing levels, it is about how I am treated... and captain, knowing that your opportunities are limited, it would still be great if you could remind your crew to put us SLF's first... a denigrating term that ought to be eliminated from the vernacular.
Cheers.... and thanks for all the safe flights.
Permit me to first state that I have no problem with the captain having absolute authority over the ship... I cannot imagine it being any other way. Permit me to also say that in the majority of circumstances, crew at all levels have behaved in a professional manner. I'm not new to conflict and problem resolution; as a project manager for large scale projects this consumes most of my professional life.
Most of my contracts permit me business class travel for international and economy class for domestic. So, after a relatively luxurious trip on an Asian carrier from Singapore to LAX or IAH, I get to experience the 'joys' of domestic airline service.
I observe one thing directly. The power of the captain is all to often displayed in an arrogant, controlling, and self serving manner by cabin crew, far different than what I experience on Asian carriers. Second, from indirect observation, the airlines seem to be a 'zero tolerance' environment. Those that are removed are charged.
So, even if I had a reasonable request, my experience is that I will not be treated with any compassion, indeed, I will be treated as a trouble maker, with no recourse, and if you as the captain, did decide to eject me, I get the whole book thrown at me... kind of like the zero tolerance policies that get school kids expelled for drugs... except the drugs were an asthma inhalant or a prescription medicine.
You could call me jaded and be exactly right. I've been flying for business since 1967, and the overall changes that I have seen are dismal. It's not only about the increased packing levels, it is about how I am treated... and captain, knowing that your opportunities are limited, it would still be great if you could remind your crew to put us SLF's first... a denigrating term that ought to be eliminated from the vernacular.
Cheers.... and thanks for all the safe flights.
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Jeezo!!!!! All this moaning and whingeing. When will people realise that short haul is a bus!!!. If you are uncomfortable, get up and walk about. Fares are cheap. It's an hour and a half journey. I must be special or something. In all my years of travelling I have never pressed a Flight Attendant bell or complained about anything. I repeat. It's a bus. Endure. You'l soon be off it!!.
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Recently my wife and I flew BDL to STT via CLT. The flight from BDL to CLT was aboard a 737-400. Anyway, the wife had a window seat, I had the middle seat and a behemoth had the aisle seat. Needless to say the behemoth intruded into about half of my seat. (Plus, said behemoth could have at least showered before boarding ie, fat and smelly). Needless to say, the flight was most uncomfortable. The saving grace being the flight was only 2 hours in length. I didn't complain nor did I "walk around the cabin" as suggested above seeing that the fasten seat belt sign was illuminated for the duration of the flight.
Can said "over-sized" passengers not be flown in the cargo hold perhaps?
Can said "over-sized" passengers not be flown in the cargo hold perhaps?
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If you have to travel in Y or lowcost, then buy that middle seat.
You know it makes sense, especially as some of the charges may not apply to a spare seat.
If you are travelling as a couple, the extra cost is modest and given that airfares are lower in real terms, you're still getting a bargain.
No more behemoths inthe next seat
and you have space to put your luggage or your working papers etc..
I've just looked on the Ryanair webiste and for a flight Malta/Luton/Malta in 2 months, with a week stay, the cost for 2 adults is 152€ and for 3 adults 229€.
So if you buy 3 for 2, the return fare is only 114.50€, for 6 hours of flying and relatively a lot of comfort with that empty middle seat.
If I didn't have a load of miles to get upgrades on Y tickets, that's what I'd do for personal flights.
You know it makes sense, especially as some of the charges may not apply to a spare seat.
If you are travelling as a couple, the extra cost is modest and given that airfares are lower in real terms, you're still getting a bargain.
No more behemoths inthe next seat
and you have space to put your luggage or your working papers etc..I've just looked on the Ryanair webiste and for a flight Malta/Luton/Malta in 2 months, with a week stay, the cost for 2 adults is 152€ and for 3 adults 229€.
So if you buy 3 for 2, the return fare is only 114.50€, for 6 hours of flying and relatively a lot of comfort with that empty middle seat.
If I didn't have a load of miles to get upgrades on Y tickets, that's what I'd do for personal flights.
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If you're booking on-line, how do you buy an extra seat...
Can you just enter your own name twice, or what?
Then what happens on the plane, do you get two boarding passes?.
Can you just enter your own name twice, or what?
Then what happens on the plane, do you get two boarding passes?.
F3G - I'm curious. I've read the Ryanair web-page and see that it is possible to book two seats [never knew that until today] - how do you manage to keep the seat next to you empty? Say the flight is full [in that every seat is sold, including the extra one that you bought] what exactly do you physically have to do to keep the seat next to you vacant?