What to do with BA miles as I wont fly with them again!

[manintheback]

As an outsider, one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer! Try that little one elsewhere and see how far you get!

Continental at Houston. Biz class. Missed flight due to 5 hour i/b delay (on BA as it happens). Not a through ticket. Non Flex. Changed Wife and I tickets no problem.

Virgin. Missed flight Narita to LHR. Upper class. Non Flex ticket. My fault , got the wrong train. Put me on the next flight out no charge.

Virgin 2 non flex uclass tickets to Vegas to watch the boxing. Fight put back 2 weeks. I asked - no problem -we went 2 weeks later.

Air Canada. Exec First. Missed connector LHR to Toronto. Again not a through ticket, not flex. Again next flight no problem.

So the answer is, try it and in my experience you always get there (except on BA in this case).

[barstow]

Absolutely agree with "manintheback".

Personally done the same recently and often on several other airlines.

BA, or "Bad Attitude" as I like to call them seem to have the knack of indifference and customer contempt down to a fine art. The fact that the guy's father was ill just makes it unfortunately a very sad reinforcing proof of how pervasive the attitude is.

Prediction: KLM buys them out in a fire sale and shapes it up. They simply can't exist the way they treat customers.

[VS-LHRCSA]

This one of the reasons why I'm glad I'm not in customer relations anymore. A few years ago, I dealt with a lady who had booked two seats to SYD with miles a year in advance (the only way you can with miles) but during that year, she was diagnosed with cancer. Her doctor advised not to travel until after her treatment, which is understandable.

When she went to cancel her tickets, she was told that she would lose the miles. She wrote letters, supplied evidence but was told no refunds on miles, end of.

Her case sat in the BA system for 6 months until it was escalated to Willie Walsh - ie: Me. It took all of 30 seconds to re-credit her miles. I then wrote to her apologising for the treatment she had received - not one person expressed any concern for her health - wished her well with the treatment and sent her flowers.

It's a pity profot has to be the victim of a short sighted policy that doesn't account for the circumstances of its valued customers.

[radeng]

Jetsetlady,

In my case, my Club Class seat turned into a Economy seat between checking in and boarding. So they must have known at check in what the loading was likely to be.

I haven't had any other real problems with BA, I'm glad to say, although it does seem silly now that we have a policy of 2 + 2 seating in Club Europe to not have the wider seats on the A-C side of the aircraft as we used to do when it was 2+3. I know the 3 seat side isn't flexible, but the 2 seat side stil is....

I do find BA cabin crew and T5 and PHX check-in people the best of all the airlines I've flown, although the suggestion that one flies too much gets worrying when you walk into the lounge and they greet you by name before looking at your ticket! I do have grave doubts about the management that sets inflexible policies, though. So, I am led to understand, do many BA staff.....

[Pax Vobiscum]

Barstow, I had to grin at the idea of KLM (or Air France as we must now call them) teaching BA staff their customer service techniques. Repeat after me: "issh not possshible ..."
[With apologies in advance to my several Dutch friends and colleagues.]

[jetset lady]

radeng,

You know what? I'm giving up. I always try to defend BA, I really do. After all, I work for them and I'm nothing, if not loyal. And we do have a lot of very good staff. Time after time, someone will post, regarding a problem they've had. I'll be there, with my BA hat on, trying to come up with a reason as to why things have been done the way they have and then the person will add a little more to their story. Slowly, bit by bit, it'll dawn on me. The issue has got as far as, either, our bl**dy useless Customer Relations department or our reservations department and that's where it'll stay for the next decade or two....again!

I've spoken to many Pprune members behind the scenes, to see if I can help in anyway. I've been to Waterside, I've sent emails, I phoned the entire company directory. And what happens? Precisely nothing!

But you know the really stupid thing? I can't seem to stop! I keep on gathering up my examples and emailing them to whoever I can think of. They keep patting me on the head and telling me that they're grateful to me for bringing it to their attention and that'll they'll get onto it immediately. And I, in my seemingly everlasting naiviety, will trot off thinking I may, at last, have made a difference for at least one of our passengers. God, I must be really dense!

So for all those that have suffered at the hands of our CR dept, I'm sorry! I've tried. Many of us have tried and, more fool us, we'll probably carry on trying. They may not care, but we do!

As for the "fantastic" new CE seating arrangement, don't even get me started!

A very tired and disillusioned JSL

P.S. Why do I get the feeling that I'm really going to regret posting this after a hard day and early start.....

[Crepello]

Hmm, this thread's converging with the parallel FlyBE discussion, which also has its share of "customers" miffed at an airline's refusal to waive contractual provisions.

Somebody please enlighten me: Why would anybody buy a flexible ticket, if similar flexibility can be bargained into cheaper fares on production of a good story? I'm all ears - this could save my employer millions.

[profot]

Im not sure sure I was looking for the same flexibility as a full flex fare, I was asking BA for a little leeway for an exceptional circumstance which frankly was not a 'good story' but in fact the death of my dear father rather than I fancied flying on a wednesday instead of a thursday.. quite a difference in my book

[Crepello]

Profot, my condolences to you, with apologies for my insensitivity.

Sadly, not everybody is quite so honest when requesting changes from their airline. Without checks and balances, the case for flexible tickets is much diminished. My question, therefore, remains.

[profot]

No problem at all, I know only too well what customers are like being in a service industry myself.

I think it is time to end this thread as it has become somewhat pointless. I had no intention of beating up BA or moaning about how hard done by i am, rather I was looking for some good ideas to spend my rather large quantities of air miles but I have successfully worked that out now as well

[MarcJF]

Legally BA was correct, morally wrong. That's why this organisation is in the mess that it is, needs a thorough clear out of dead wood, of which there is lots. I doubt they will ever be a propper airline again, would be a shame if GB lost a national carrier but that's the way it's going, fast.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Jetsetlady, I don't think it's fair to say that customer relations don't care (at least at Waterside) it's just like Radeng mentioned, many BA staff DO care but are bound by restrictive policies.

I can relate to what you say about helping out - I've been PM'd many times on here - to the point where you are genuinely saddened and frustrated by not being able to get anywhere.

A tip for those who are having troubles with BA customer relations - write to Willie Walsh directly. The letter goes to a specialised team. It may take longer to get a response but you should get a quicker resolution once your letter has been picked up.

Another tip is if you have had problems and a crew member, or ground staff member has tried to help but to no avail (ie wanted to but couldn't for the reasons above) it would help when you write in to name the person. A copy is sent to that person's manager which means another set of eyes is looking at your complaint letter. It may not help you in this instance but helps with the bigger picture.

[radeng]

JSL,

Maybe if they cleared out management (Ha!) from Waterside and promoted some check in staff and CC and even flying crew from the sharp end to run things, it would shake up the operation and be back to what those at the sharp end really want to see.

I wonder if they've started the 'empowerment' idea for staff, which usually gives responsibility without any power at all?

Of course, often in Europe, the 'sharp end' people aren't very good, and that's because although they have BA uniforms, they are Servisair or whoever, and BA is juts one of the airlines they deal with. Sad, because it gives the wrong impression when they're clueless or awkward - people who don't know think they are dealing with BA staff.

Still, I expect to be flying BA enough to renew the Gold card again next year - for year seven.

[barstow]

I hope it doesn't sound trite, or sarcastic, but it's actually quite nice to see there's at least 2 BA employees who are restoring my faith in BA's humanity - kudos to you! I didn't think that it was possible for 100% of an airline to be brainwashed into machine mentality...

Pax Vobiscum, I wholeheartedly agree - the tradition of Germanic service has always been a reputation based on tolerance-bordering-on-contempt, but has been rapidly changing over the last 10 years. I see the shape-up concept of a takeover solely based on a customer responsive group, which for survival AF/KLM has to be, and which BA never has been, nor required to be due to their "glass monopoly".

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing. To lose a regular pax for saving the office work of verifying his "good story" (one phone call to his doctor with family's permission to disclose) and changing his booking vs. losing a customer is just bad business. Airlines run badly don't survive, especially in a competitive, and low margin environment. Simple as that, and at least 2 employees here understand their jobs rely on that fact.

radeng, It is immaterial if the personnel are Servisair under contract from BA. If BA aren't aware their contractors aren't performing to an acceptable standard, then they aren't getting value for their money (whatever it is).

[Jofm5]

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing.

You have never obviously run a business as a going concern.

We can observe in this example a high fare paying pax being peeved because the airline has followed the contract to the letter and now thinking they dont want to deal with the airline.

If you look at it from the other side, a business is run to make a profit - the contract is entered into on the basis of moneys paid for service offered. If you want to deviate from that contract you can either expect it to be cancelled and a new contract put in place or for penalties to be applied.

Business is business - life is life, if a member of your family is mortally ill it is a tough situation but should you really be expecting a business to finance your repatriation ?

No matter how you look at it a business there to provide a service for a profit to its shareholders.

We seem to forget that compassion of people within a business may gain some leeway, this is an exception to a rule not an obligation.

If you expect compassion on rebooking a flight then make sure that is written into the rules when booking the ticket. If you accept a contract on the terms given dont be so upset when entity you have the contract upholds the contract.

Not being funny but if the situations were reversed would you be happy if your flight was brought it forward a day because of personal issues with the flight crew ?

Flexibility in any contract is there when it suits both parties - if you want flexibilty for a flight then pay for it - whilst everyone within reason has compassion you cannot expect everyone else to underwrite your needs in exceptional circumstances regardless of what you have done previously.

I aplogise if I have offended but life is hard, business is hard and no business will succeed by writing off costs from being nice.

[radeng]

Jofm5

Business is hard. There are times when it's worth while taking a small loss to avoid a much bigger one from losing the repeat business. Sometimes, the loss is even bigger because there's no repeat business from that customer and he persuades others not to deal with you.

[Crepello]

Jofm5 sums it up nicely. Sorry guys, but the bottom line is this: You can run a competitive, low margin, mass market business. Or you can pitch for service, catering to each customer's whim at a price that reflects the costs incurred. But you can't do full service at low price - not profitably, not sustainably.

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing.

Had my regular airline demonstrated such leniency, I could have saved over $10,000 from flexible fares - just this year, just for one pax. That scales up to a lot more than 'nothing' in the big picture.

Many service providers (utilities, banks, telecomms) ditch hundreds of 'nuisance' customers annually, precisely because they've become liabilities - the cost of their requests exceeds the profits they generate. It's nice to imagine an airline that's staffed to investigate every request, calling doctors, corroborating with family members, ensuring legal compliance and preparing all the documentation - but who would pay for this capability? Many airlines can barely afford even their current payrolls.

Three groups seem to be emerging from this discussion, namely (nay provocatively):

• True 'high roller' customers that airlines must - and do - bend over backwards to accommodate and delight.
• Regular travellers, who the airline may further assist out of goodwill, but who shouldn't take this as granted.
• Occasional customers, whose marginal value provides incremental gains but whom, come next year's holiday, will continue to favour the cheapest provider.

Maybe some on this thread aspire to the first group, but are piqued to be stuck a little lower down the table!

[Juud]

Profot, first of all, very sorry indeed about your father.

Further to radeng, Jofm5 and Crepello.

A business can not show compassion. An individual can.
An individual can only show compassion if he/she has the power to do so.
A power derived form being trusted enough to make a judgment call by the management layer above.
For an employee to be trusted enough to make a judgment call, that employee needs to have enough brains & experience to do so.
An employee that has enough brains and experience to make a judgment call, will cost more than an employee who is able to do no more than follow rules.
With everything in the airlines except management salaries and bonuses subject to cost saving, any manager wanting to stay employed will opt for the cheapest possible employees still able to do the job to the minimum standards as stated in the written rules.
Hence what happened to profot.
Similar to what happens daily to tens of thousands of passengers at the hands of badly managed, under-skilled and maxed-out staff.

The industry, barely profitable at the best of times, is once again in the doldrums. Different types of airlines are using different tactics in their bid to survive.
Few of these tactics are pretty for either staff or pax.

[Gibon2]

Crepello and Jofm5:

You may be right in general, but in this case - as I pointed out at length in my post #19 - the decision made no commercial sense. Clearly you can't regularly grant such requests, otherwise (as you rightly argue) nobody would ever buy a flexible ticket. But this was a first request from a regular business-class traveller (let's put him in your second category, Crepello) who has many alternative service providers.

It simply isn't worth saying no. And that is a purely commercial calculation, quite apart from the humanity and common decency angle. As Jofm5 said:

Flexibility in any contract is there when it suits both parties

This was such a case: BA just failed to recognise their own commercial interest. And consquently they've lost revenue to the competition.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Of course companies can show "compassion" (whatever that is), but only if the directors decide to. The amount of "Compassion" is shown by the policies the directors dictate and the managers implement. The minions do what they are told.

And thats how it should be.

This is when frequent flier status should be taken into account. Some airlines have good frequent flier schemes, some don't. You need to know about this before you decide to spend serious coin with any airline. Who knows whether BA made the right commercial call on this occasion, I don't and I don't think anybody here does either.