TC 'Terrifies' Passengers - The Press at their worst
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The captain should have had a quiet word with the crew, and the crew should have had a quiet word with the passengers. "Excuse me sir, would you mind if we moved you and your family to row 21, theres been a problem with the check in system",
That's why FR block rows depending on the passenger load.
As a late comer to the discussion, when does your proposed " Little white lie " become disinformation?
There is a balance to be considered as all too often I read complaints here about mis-information and lack of information.
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Flying Lawyer
On the subject of cargo doors, I have written case studies for executive development workshops based on the DC10 story, so I know a little more about cargo doors and the consequences of certain failure modes than most pax.
I would be suspicious of an airline I have never heard of (I see from Google founded in 2009, with a single aircraft, so no reputation or track record to go on), who were sub contracted in and declared they wished to despatch with a faulty cargo door. If it was British Airways, I would not be suspicious.
That may be unfair, but it is no different to a customer choosing Price Waterhouse Coopers as an audit firm, over the local high street accountant, who may be excellent, but who does not have the same reputation.
It's quite a reasonable to wish to know the failure mode. If it is a plug and it fails safe, then I would be okay, if not, I have the means to walk away and buy another flight.
I have only ever done this once, a long time ago, when I was waiting to board a South American carrier in Europe and the plane that arrived looked like a piece of junk, filthy, with the former owners logo clearly visible under the 'new' paint scheme. I bought a new ticket with Air France and waited for another five hours - I am still comfortable with that decision.
You may call me stupid, but that same airline lost a 747, 727 and a 707 within the next decade.
As to my quoting of Helios and Spanair, I think you miss my point; I am sure that airline pilots are excellently trained and highly capable people.
But the point is that highly professional crews are involved in accidents and peope know that, so their concern is not entirely irrational, even though most people make the majority of their decisions irrationally (in the clinical sense of the word.)
I'll say again that the general public no longer has the same level of trust in the professionals that they enjoyed 30 years ago. I'm a professional in another field, we encounter the same scepticism. You have to learn how to manage it.
On the subject of cargo doors, I have written case studies for executive development workshops based on the DC10 story, so I know a little more about cargo doors and the consequences of certain failure modes than most pax.
I would be suspicious of an airline I have never heard of (I see from Google founded in 2009, with a single aircraft, so no reputation or track record to go on), who were sub contracted in and declared they wished to despatch with a faulty cargo door. If it was British Airways, I would not be suspicious.
That may be unfair, but it is no different to a customer choosing Price Waterhouse Coopers as an audit firm, over the local high street accountant, who may be excellent, but who does not have the same reputation.
It's quite a reasonable to wish to know the failure mode. If it is a plug and it fails safe, then I would be okay, if not, I have the means to walk away and buy another flight.
I have only ever done this once, a long time ago, when I was waiting to board a South American carrier in Europe and the plane that arrived looked like a piece of junk, filthy, with the former owners logo clearly visible under the 'new' paint scheme. I bought a new ticket with Air France and waited for another five hours - I am still comfortable with that decision.
You may call me stupid, but that same airline lost a 747, 727 and a 707 within the next decade.
As to my quoting of Helios and Spanair, I think you miss my point; I am sure that airline pilots are excellently trained and highly capable people.
But the point is that highly professional crews are involved in accidents and peope know that, so their concern is not entirely irrational, even though most people make the majority of their decisions irrationally (in the clinical sense of the word.)
I'll say again that the general public no longer has the same level of trust in the professionals that they enjoyed 30 years ago. I'm a professional in another field, we encounter the same scepticism. You have to learn how to manage it.
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The captain should have had a quiet word with the crew, and the crew should have had a quiet word with the passengers. "Excuse me sir, would you mind if we moved you and your family to row 21, theres been a problem with the check in system.
Final 3 Greens: you seem to be rolling together two separate issues here: customer service / the "right to know" and a pilot's professional duty to his passengers.
A doctor is not obliged to explain to his patient why he has decided on a particular diagnosis. That is what the doctor is paid to do. A solicitor is not obliged to explain to his client the legal reasons behind every decision he makes. He may choose to do so, but he is paid for his professional judgement. Likewise, a professional pilot is not obliged to tell his passengers why he has decided the aircraft is safe to fly (or to provide details on fuel or any of the other examples Bealzebub gave). He is paid to exercise his professional judgement and that, ultimately, is all that counts.
That is not to say that non-communication or over-communication (in any of the above situations) is either acceptable or desirable. I think you need to get this into perspective. It seems you know a little too much about one issue. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...
Bealzebub: thank you for your informed comment.
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Nicholas 49
With all due respect
That is a very naive statement.
Some of it is plain wrong. Why do solicitors 'take instructions' from their clients - not because they make the decisions, their clients do that, based on their recommendations and clients need to understand enough to decide, ergo lawyers (in my experience) share their thinking and the basis of it, to assist the client in instructing them.
The doctors I know would not act in a high handed fashion and arrogantly withold the reasons for a diagnosis, in fact they tell me that they often talk with their patients about the symptoms/potential causes and get feedback, before reaching a final conclusion, based on a combination of their own clinical judgement and the patients information.
I do agree that an aircraft captain does not have to share his decisions with the pax, but if he (or his crew) share with me that a cargo door has jammed and I know that cargo door failures have killed hundreds of pax, then I'll get interested and look for reassurance. If I don't get the reassurance, I'll de-plane. I don't really care what you think about that perspective.
I put it to you, that if (as reported) 71 people who had paid for a ticket then felt the need to buy a new ticket, at considerable cost, it is not in line with normal human nature to pay twice for the same service, unless there is a compelling driver.
Yes, I may travel on aircraft where there are MEL items and defered defects, without knowing. That I accept.
But as a final point, anyone who thinks that professionals such as lawyers and doctors can operate in a vacuum, without potential consequences, is naive.
As I have argued on this forum before, pilots are professional in the sense that they are paid to do a (highly skilled) job, but they are not professionals in the true sense of the definition, e.g. having a professional institute(s) that awards the qualifications/professional grades necessary to practice, being held accountable to a code of professional practice from that institute, etc. By institute, I mean for example the ICAEW, not a government body like the CAA.
So your comparison of the practice of pilots and professionals is not really viable.
With all due respect
A doctor is not obliged to explain to his patient why he has decided on a particular diagnosis. That is what the doctor is paid to do. A solicitor is not obliged to explain to his client the legal reasons behind every decision he makes. He may choose to do so, but he is paid for his professional judgement. Likewise, a professional pilot is not obliged to tell his passengers why he has decided the aircraft is safe to fly (or to provide details on fuel or any of the other examples Bealzebub gave). He is paid to exercise his professional judgement and that, ultimately, is all that counts.
Some of it is plain wrong. Why do solicitors 'take instructions' from their clients - not because they make the decisions, their clients do that, based on their recommendations and clients need to understand enough to decide, ergo lawyers (in my experience) share their thinking and the basis of it, to assist the client in instructing them.
The doctors I know would not act in a high handed fashion and arrogantly withold the reasons for a diagnosis, in fact they tell me that they often talk with their patients about the symptoms/potential causes and get feedback, before reaching a final conclusion, based on a combination of their own clinical judgement and the patients information.
I do agree that an aircraft captain does not have to share his decisions with the pax, but if he (or his crew) share with me that a cargo door has jammed and I know that cargo door failures have killed hundreds of pax, then I'll get interested and look for reassurance. If I don't get the reassurance, I'll de-plane. I don't really care what you think about that perspective.
I put it to you, that if (as reported) 71 people who had paid for a ticket then felt the need to buy a new ticket, at considerable cost, it is not in line with normal human nature to pay twice for the same service, unless there is a compelling driver.
Yes, I may travel on aircraft where there are MEL items and defered defects, without knowing. That I accept.
But as a final point, anyone who thinks that professionals such as lawyers and doctors can operate in a vacuum, without potential consequences, is naive.
As I have argued on this forum before, pilots are professional in the sense that they are paid to do a (highly skilled) job, but they are not professionals in the true sense of the definition, e.g. having a professional institute(s) that awards the qualifications/professional grades necessary to practice, being held accountable to a code of professional practice from that institute, etc. By institute, I mean for example the ICAEW, not a government body like the CAA.
So your comparison of the practice of pilots and professionals is not really viable.
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lawyers (in my experience) share their thinking and the basis of it, to assist the client in instructing them.
arrogantly withold the reasons for a diagnosis
then I'll get interested and look for reassurance. If I don't get the reassurance, I'll de-plane. I don't really care what you think about that perspective.
it is not in line with normal human nature to pay twice for the same service, unless there is a compelling driver.
anyone who thinks that professionals such as lawyers and doctors can operate in a vacuum, without potential consequences, is naive.
they are not professionals in the true sense of the definition, e.g. having a professional institute(s) that awards the qualifications/professional grades necessary to practice, being held accountable to a code of professional practice from that institute
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I wonder if those complaining that the reference to Blackpool was ‘snobbish’ etc have considered that it was merely a way of suggesting that people who are so easily “terrified” might, instead of flying abroad for their holidays, go to a seaside resort which can be reached by road … even though driving on motorways is not without risk.
As a Lancastrian I'm happy for as many as possible to spend their ££s in my county of birth rather than in a Spanish resort.
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Users like you are the reason why PPRuNe's reputation has been dragged down amongst, if you'll pardon the express, professional pilots.
Clearly people who fly aircraft for money are professional pilots.
All I was saying is that the occupation of being an airline pilot is not one of the recognised professions, where an independent institute controls the ability to practice by controlling qualifications/licensing. Typically in the UK, a royal charter is also granted, e.g. the Institute of Chartered Accountants of England and Wales.
To put this in context, highly skilled management consultants are not members of a recognised profession either, even though they have years of training and development in their roles and will almost certainly be educated to masters degree level and maybe hold a doctoral degree.
This does not n anyway demean airline pilots, for example who trusted to countersign passport photographs, in recognition of the responsibility of their profession.
My earlier point was made in response to Nicholas 49, who compared doctors, lawyers and pilots.
This point was invalid, because doctors and lawyers are members of institutes, who regulate their professions and where very strict codes of conduct and ethics exist around how they handle their clients.
Airline captains do not operate under this particular constraint, although they do have other constraints to consider.
Thus Nicholas's comparison was flawed. My comment meant no more or less than that.
It must be said, I think Barden is making a much better case for being ignored, with the 'high quality' of his postings here, than Final 3 Greens 
At least the remaining passengers on board could spread out a bit into the extra space
And those getting off have pumped twice as much money into aviation - great!
At least the remaining passengers on board could spread out a bit into the extra space
And those getting off have pumped twice as much money into aviation - great!
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So the comparison is 'flawed' is it? I agree that the comparison between a solicitor and accountant is more common than between a solicitor and airline pilot, but if you engage your brain you will see the similarities.
It is telling that, like in so many of your contributions on this site, you have failed to engage with any of the counter-arguments put to you. Instead, you seem content to decide whether a profession is a profession based purely on whether it has an institute with a royal charter! Are you aware of the self-serving and self-protecting nature of the traditional professional bodies? How many regular and mandatory assessments do solicitors sit once they have qualified? Doctors? Accountants? It almost seems that you are arguing that the CAA does not set standards. Please do elaborate, it is most interesting!
It is telling that, like in so many of your contributions on this site, you have failed to engage with any of the counter-arguments put to you. Instead, you seem content to decide whether a profession is a profession based purely on whether it has an institute with a royal charter! Are you aware of the self-serving and self-protecting nature of the traditional professional bodies? How many regular and mandatory assessments do solicitors sit once they have qualified? Doctors? Accountants? It almost seems that you are arguing that the CAA does not set standards. Please do elaborate, it is most interesting!
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I think F3G makes sense. If I have not explained the situation well enough, and all he has understood was there was a problem with the cargo door, then he should ask further if he feels unsafe. Hopefully the CC can then pass on his concerns to me which would prompt a more informative PA. If he then chooses to deplane.....his choice.
What I can't stand are the pillocks who try to cause a scene, and then be leader of the gang. Had one the other day. Humid day, aircon on and the usual condensation dripping down. This idiot gets out his camera and starts taking pictures claiming that this is unusual and unsafe. The CM asks him what the problem is, only to then relay to me that he is an airport egineer (whatever that may be!) which clearly qualifies him to then say that there is a problem with the pressure of the aircraft (we are on stand with outflow valves open and doors open!). I begrudgingly asked the engineer to go and tell this idiot that all is ok (more for the benefit of the passengers around him who may have become anxious).
What I can't stand are the pillocks who try to cause a scene, and then be leader of the gang. Had one the other day. Humid day, aircon on and the usual condensation dripping down. This idiot gets out his camera and starts taking pictures claiming that this is unusual and unsafe. The CM asks him what the problem is, only to then relay to me that he is an airport egineer (whatever that may be!) which clearly qualifies him to then say that there is a problem with the pressure of the aircraft (we are on stand with outflow valves open and doors open!). I begrudgingly asked the engineer to go and tell this idiot that all is ok (more for the benefit of the passengers around him who may have become anxious).
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I can't imagine that I would feel unsafe on your flight
Also, I agree that rabble rousers are
pillocks.
Nicholas 49
I did type a long reply, but sadly there was a glitch and it got lost.
I will try again tomorrow, so please don't think I am ignoring you.
I can't imagine that I would feel unsafe on your flight
Also, I agree that rabble rousers are
pillocks.Nicholas 49
I did type a long reply, but sadly there was a glitch and it got lost.
I will try again tomorrow, so please don't think I am ignoring you.
