Arrogant posters
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OK loudmouth g0bsh1te SLF if you think we are all dictatorial arrogant self aggrandisers ( made that word up probably, but, hey, I can I'm a pilot 
)
Situation: Passenger gets through security, boarding and all other aspects of the process of negotiating the AIRPORT with the internet check in boarding for his flight back to origin i.e the flight I'm operating is ABC - XYZ on 1 Jan, and he is clutching a XYZ - ABC ( printed on his own computer) for 3 Jan.
Not his problem as it is a genuine mistake: he thought he was printing a boarding card that covered both his his flights. First time he had used the internet check in facility and he ticked the "Print return boarding card box" in the genuine, but mistaken belief that it covered both flights.
He gets on board and the CC discover that he really shouldn't be on board.
It's his wife's birthday next day: there is only 1 flight per day and tomorrow's flight is fully booked. You can, quite legitimately, deny him carriage as he doesn't hold a valid boarding card for the flight.
He refuses to get off the aircraft when asked by the CC and ground staff.
What do you do?
)Situation: Passenger gets through security, boarding and all other aspects of the process of negotiating the AIRPORT with the internet check in boarding for his flight back to origin i.e the flight I'm operating is ABC - XYZ on 1 Jan, and he is clutching a XYZ - ABC ( printed on his own computer) for 3 Jan.
Not his problem as it is a genuine mistake: he thought he was printing a boarding card that covered both his his flights. First time he had used the internet check in facility and he ticked the "Print return boarding card box" in the genuine, but mistaken belief that it covered both flights.
He gets on board and the CC discover that he really shouldn't be on board.
It's his wife's birthday next day: there is only 1 flight per day and tomorrow's flight is fully booked. You can, quite legitimately, deny him carriage as he doesn't hold a valid boarding card for the flight.
He refuses to get off the aircraft when asked by the CC and ground staff.
What do you do?
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I passenger a lot. I sit there in horror watching people holding up papers during the safety briefing, reading, wiping kids noses, looking out of the window etc, while the cabin crew gamely go through the full briefing pantomime. They don't even look around and clock the nearest exit! These people I would call fools, idiots, twerps. It's something that could save your life. They fulfil the definition of those words. Come the time they actually need the emergency equipment in anger, they are confused sheep! 'What do I do with the oxygen mask?' 'Do I pull it, untangle it, stand up and breath into it?' 'Where's my nearest exit?' And as for Hadow seeing to his son first? Such people shouldn't be allowed out without a helmet on with a message on it 'please take care of me because I'm a bit stupid!'.
e.g. a captain of a major European airline, positioning in uniform wlkaing round the cabin with the belt signs on and serving himself a cup of coffee in the galley in full sight of the first few rows of pax.
If a captain doesn't heed the safety briefing, why should the pax?
Also, crew not enforcing the seat belt sign has a similar effect - do they really mean it?
The concept of zero tolerance, in its original NYC sense, should be applied and if that means offloading pax who don't listen, then I for one would support that, even if it delays me.
So don't blame the passenger behaviour until the airlines get their act together.
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e.g. a captain of a major European airline, positioning in uniform wlkaing round the cabin with the belt signs on and serving himself a cup of coffee in the galley in full sight of the first few rows of pax.
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What do you do?
It will not damage your employer's business, due to the nature of the modus operandii (which I find clever, if personally repulsive) and the word will get around his network to be more careful in future.
If he had wished for a full service, then he should have paid for it.
So offload him, any other action completely misses the point of the business you are in.
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OK, 1 vote from F3G, he has to get off.
come on then loudmouth g0bsh1te SLF, let's have your solutions.
Oh, and you have a slot in 10 minutes and your scheduled departure is in 5 mins and the company require a written report for any delays.
come on then loudmouth g0bsh1te SLF, let's have your solutions.
Oh, and you have a slot in 10 minutes and your scheduled departure is in 5 mins and the company require a written report for any delays.
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OK, 29 viewing and not a reply.
You have now lost your slot and your new slot is in 2 hrs time.
See?
We work in a dynamic environment where we have to make decisions, no matter how unpopular.
You have now lost your slot and your new slot is in 2 hrs time.
See?
We work in a dynamic environment where we have to make decisions, no matter how unpopular.
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RMR, doesn't work that way.
You have to come up with a real life solution.
Get off is too easy: think of the way he will have to get off. He has already refused to move.
Easy job being arrogant aircrew, isn't it?
OK loudmouth g0bsh1te SLF who know better, being as it's late, you can have 2 days to work the answer out.
We mere mortals get 2 or 3 minutes if we are lucky and have to get it right, otherwise we are criticised left, right and on PPRuNe.
You have to come up with a real life solution.
Get off is too easy: think of the way he will have to get off. He has already refused to move.
Easy job being arrogant aircrew, isn't it?
OK loudmouth g0bsh1te SLF who know better, being as it's late, you can have 2 days to work the answer out.
We mere mortals get 2 or 3 minutes if we are lucky and have to get it right, otherwise we are criticised left, right and on PPRuNe.
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Don't worry Slim, it was ever-so-slightly tongue in cheek. Anyway the company don't give me a phone, so I couldn't offer it. This is one of those where I sit and let the captain earn his cash, while praying he doesn't ask what I think (!) And obviously remember how it was handled for the fateful day when I have to sign the techlog.
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Smile politely. Say you understand that it's his wife's Birthday but point out due to weather turning the schedule upside down, in order to get everyone where they are you're away from home, wearing the same shirt on an unsched' night stop having had a shortbread from the coffee counter for breakfast cos you were in the holiday Inn express, and you'll miss your wife's Birthday too but if he sticks on the plane, everyone will be missing their Wive's Birthdays/ Interviews/ train/ connection/ 10 min freeview on the playboy channel etc etc
But I did chose to do this so can't complain haha
But I did chose to do this so can't complain haha
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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Pondering again
I wonder how many folks that come up with wonderful ideas actually are in the sort of occupation that puts them in the position of having to make that instant decision affecting safety, customer relations and costs and then possibly have to justify it to management?
I wonder how many folks that come up with wonderful ideas actually are in the sort of occupation that puts them in the position of having to make that instant decision affecting safety, customer relations and costs and then possibly have to justify it to management?
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Arrogance is a form of unpleasant human behavior that is sometimes exhibited: Some people are arrogant only very occasionally, some make a habit of behaving so regularly.
Pilots are human beings, and therefore will behave in this way too (it would be statistically remarkable if they didn't) - they will also exhibit a full range of other human behaviors, including, of course, all of the positive ones. Since FA's, Engineers, passengers and indeed everybody is also human, the same is true all round. You can find good and bad everywhere you look - attempting to draw any kind of conclusion from what is seen will usually be fruitless.
The overwhelming, massive majority of Flight & Cabin Crew are pleasant, skilled and well intentioned people, anxious to do a good job for their customers. A minority, of variable size, is probably unsuited to the job. The trick, for us, when dealing with passengers, is always to treat as you would wish to be treated yourself, and to remember that most people are pleasantly disposed and will remain so if dealt with courteously and intelligently. The trick for passengers, when dealing with Airline staff, is to do the same.
Finally, I suggest that it will always be possible to find instances of poor or inappropriate behavior (Walking Captains, drunken or rude passengers etc.). Using these comparatively rare instances as a basis for the creation of an opinion or a policy doesn't usually move things anywhere positive.
Pilots are human beings, and therefore will behave in this way too (it would be statistically remarkable if they didn't) - they will also exhibit a full range of other human behaviors, including, of course, all of the positive ones. Since FA's, Engineers, passengers and indeed everybody is also human, the same is true all round. You can find good and bad everywhere you look - attempting to draw any kind of conclusion from what is seen will usually be fruitless.
The overwhelming, massive majority of Flight & Cabin Crew are pleasant, skilled and well intentioned people, anxious to do a good job for their customers. A minority, of variable size, is probably unsuited to the job. The trick, for us, when dealing with passengers, is always to treat as you would wish to be treated yourself, and to remember that most people are pleasantly disposed and will remain so if dealt with courteously and intelligently. The trick for passengers, when dealing with Airline staff, is to do the same.
Finally, I suggest that it will always be possible to find instances of poor or inappropriate behavior (Walking Captains, drunken or rude passengers etc.). Using these comparatively rare instances as a basis for the creation of an opinion or a policy doesn't usually move things anywhere positive.
How much of the perceived "arrogance" is due to the fact that we are reading what someone has written, rather than listening to a verbal communication and watching facial expressions and body language? A lot of times one can read something on the interweb thingy and think 'blimey, that's a bit rich' but it's not what the poster meant at all. I've done it myself and I'm pretty sure most of my readership has, if they would care to admit to it.
I take the point that lots of SLF (like me) travel a lot and thus think they are experts, or are overgrown children who don't understand that PS is not real life, and don't like it when a real expert contradicts them. No one likes being wrong, and especially being made to be seen to be wrong in public.
I take the point that lots of SLF (like me) travel a lot and thus think they are experts, or are overgrown children who don't understand that PS is not real life, and don't like it when a real expert contradicts them. No one likes being wrong, and especially being made to be seen to be wrong in public.
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Do any of the aviation professionals here share my concern at most of the people posting here who think because they have taken a few passenger flights are now fit to act as aircraft accident investigators and pronounce opinions on safety issues as they do, all the while their anonymous background absolutely shielding the fact that they don't know what they are talking about?
come on then loudmouth g0bsh1te SLF, let's have your solutions.
Oh, and you have a slot in 10 minutes and your scheduled departure is in 5 mins and the company require a written report for any delays.
Oh, and you have a slot in 10 minutes and your scheduled departure is in 5 mins and the company require a written report for any delays.
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I don't travel a lot, well not now at least, neither do I think of myself as an expert in aviation. I do however know the fundamentals of flight, can describe the control surfaces of an aircraft and could successfully control an aircraft in flight should I need to so I'm not totally ignorant of the whole process. Because of this, and knowing that the main reason I don't fly professionally is that I couldn't afford the costs involved in qualifying nor am I sure I could perform adequately under pressure without assistance, I have a profound respect for those who do. However it does disturb me when certain members of that profession seem only too quick to suggest that they are virtually infallible and that anyone else who may seek to express an opinion, whether they be cattle class or cabin crew, is totally unworthy of any consideration.
Fortunately they seem to be in the minority.
I don't expect people to tell me how to do my job either, unless they are qualified at an equal or higher level or have more experience than me, however, when someone "outside" makes a suggestion I will listen and investigate, then if the suggestion has no basis for being I will explain in simple terms exactly why. I avoid the use of sarcasm and I avoid being patronising. There have been occasions where some of those suggestions have warranted further development and with the addition of my and other's expertise a simple "off -the-wall" idea has become practical and useful. I just didn't think of it at the time.
I also never fully trust those who believe they are foolproof.
No matter how good your training is, no matter how many hours you spend in the sim, no matter how much money your company invests in you, you will make a mistake at least once in your career. I'd much rather be flown by the pilot who can accept that and is willing to acknowledge it when it happens than the one who can't and won't.
Fortunately they seem to be in the minority.
I don't expect people to tell me how to do my job either, unless they are qualified at an equal or higher level or have more experience than me, however, when someone "outside" makes a suggestion I will listen and investigate, then if the suggestion has no basis for being I will explain in simple terms exactly why. I avoid the use of sarcasm and I avoid being patronising. There have been occasions where some of those suggestions have warranted further development and with the addition of my and other's expertise a simple "off -the-wall" idea has become practical and useful. I just didn't think of it at the time.
I also never fully trust those who believe they are foolproof.
No matter how good your training is, no matter how many hours you spend in the sim, no matter how much money your company invests in you, you will make a mistake at least once in your career. I'd much rather be flown by the pilot who can accept that and is willing to acknowledge it when it happens than the one who can't and won't.
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Tightslot
In the context of behavioural change, I would have to disagree with you.
Zero tolerance was a policy introduced in New York, which if you research it fully, started with the removal of graffitti from subway trains and other public places. The programme gained a head of steam over several years and the reduction of the crime rate in NYC is well known.
Someone needs to draw a line under unacceptable behaviour and let the people know it is not acceptable.
As a passenger in a commercial aircraft, I have no authority and cannot implement zero tolerance, but I would support the crew in the following areas
- enforcing the seat belt sign
- dealing with drunk or abusive people
- dealing with people who persist in using mobile phones against the rules
- etc
A positioning pilot walking around when the belt sign is on or using a mobile phone surreptitiously (as reported by a poster on another thread) acts as a very bad role model.
Zero tolerance requires that crew act as role models and then enforce the required behaviours to the same standard.
It is high time that we stamped on bad behaviour on aircraft.
Finally, I suggest that it will always be possible to find instances of poor or inappropriate behavior (Walking Captains, drunken or rude passengers etc.). Using these comparatively rare instances as a basis for the creation of an opinion or a policy doesn't usually move things anywhere positive.
Zero tolerance was a policy introduced in New York, which if you research it fully, started with the removal of graffitti from subway trains and other public places. The programme gained a head of steam over several years and the reduction of the crime rate in NYC is well known.
Someone needs to draw a line under unacceptable behaviour and let the people know it is not acceptable.
As a passenger in a commercial aircraft, I have no authority and cannot implement zero tolerance, but I would support the crew in the following areas
- enforcing the seat belt sign
- dealing with drunk or abusive people
- dealing with people who persist in using mobile phones against the rules
- etc
A positioning pilot walking around when the belt sign is on or using a mobile phone surreptitiously (as reported by a poster on another thread) acts as a very bad role model.
Zero tolerance requires that crew act as role models and then enforce the required behaviours to the same standard.
It is high time that we stamped on bad behaviour on aircraft.