T5 is working
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I have to second PAXboy here... people are inevitably cost centres whichever way you swing it. Having a lot of CS people on the ground (i.e. milling around in the terminal) is a big cost centre, especially if they are not really engaged in any activity. Having people on tap sounds nice, but it's kind of tough telling people that they would be on stand-by, and cannot be used for anything else lest they be called in (c/crew and f/crew are different here).
So CS people are kept to a minimum to keep the costs down. And in the challenging airline environment, that is a good thing (keeping the costs down). Whether that is good for the customers is another thing altogether, but the expectation is likely to be that the British consumer knows how to queue - patiently, while the foreign consumer will seek out the CS people to ask what the delay is.
It's a no-win situation. On the one hand we don't want BA to raise their prices to keep the shareholders happy and pay for more CS people, on the other hand we demand service, SERVICE DAMMIT, which only comes from having a lot of people on the ground, which costs money, which means prices go up, which... you get the drift.
S.
So CS people are kept to a minimum to keep the costs down. And in the challenging airline environment, that is a good thing (keeping the costs down). Whether that is good for the customers is another thing altogether, but the expectation is likely to be that the British consumer knows how to queue - patiently, while the foreign consumer will seek out the CS people to ask what the delay is.
It's a no-win situation. On the one hand we don't want BA to raise their prices to keep the shareholders happy and pay for more CS people, on the other hand we demand service, SERVICE DAMMIT, which only comes from having a lot of people on the ground, which costs money, which means prices go up, which... you get the drift.
S.
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Where does one suppose BA will be able to find a load of staff willing to come to work at short notice on a Sunday evening?
VAFFPAX
Your argument sounds quite good, until you look at airlines like Southwest, who manage to provide both service and competitive (not necessarily very cheap) fares. Air Berlin are a pretty good carrier in Europe, IMHO, in this vein.
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F3G, when you look at SWA, they don't have the amount of CS people on the ground though that BA would require with its 'innovative' do-it-yourself-at-your-leisure T5 design. When 'disaster' strikes (i.e. heavy storms that cause cancellations), it's EVERY HAND ON DECK, from managers downwards (or at least that's what I've been led to believe in the past). That is a different kind of culture than what we seem to see in Europe.
That's what makes SWA different to FR and other LoCos and other scheduled carriers. JetBlue themselves had to learn this very quickly in the winter storms that gripped the East Coast and pretty much blew their entire network apart, leaving thousands stranded in airports all over the place, and they were lambasted for not having sufficient CS personnel on the ground to answer questions and deal with the monumental FU that they were facing.
S.
That's what makes SWA different to FR and other LoCos and other scheduled carriers. JetBlue themselves had to learn this very quickly in the winter storms that gripped the East Coast and pretty much blew their entire network apart, leaving thousands stranded in airports all over the place, and they were lambasted for not having sufficient CS personnel on the ground to answer questions and deal with the monumental FU that they were facing.
S.
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When 'disaster' strikes (i.e. heavy storms that cause cancellations), it's EVERY HAND ON DECK, from managers downwards (or at least that's what I've been led to believe in the past).
They (BA) had an opportunity to show that lessons had been learnt and world class service was now the norm and IMHO they failed. I'm not flying with a lo-cost operator, I'm flying with BA, our national carrier who I expect to treat me with a little respect.
One interesting note is that whilst this was going on there were 5 (presumably agency) staff twiddling their thumbs doing the liquid checks pre-security. Now how about some real innovative thinking that if there are no pax passing through security (cos there are no flights) they are redeployed in some way to assist the 1,000 milling around in the check in area.
Paxing All Over The World
Oh dear k3lvc
you are starting to think in a logical fashion that would help the customer. Tsk. Tsk. 
Seriously, I suspect the main reason is that they are employed by someone else and, because there is no cohesive approach to the customer (remember how much money they save with outsourcing!) then the contracts for those staff would prevent it.
The innovative thinker would have thought of that when the job descriptions were done. The staff could receive a bonus payment on each occasion that they are asked to help out in that way. It is now waaaay too late for logical thought. Whilst security staff have usually belonged to the airport rather than the carrier, it should not prevent agreements being set up in advance and called as needed.
Now how about some real innovative thinking that if there are no pax passing through security (cos there are no flights) they are redeployed in some way to assist the 1,000 milling around in the check in area.
Seriously, I suspect the main reason is that they are employed by someone else and, because there is no cohesive approach to the customer (remember how much money they save with outsourcing!) then the contracts for those staff would prevent it.
The innovative thinker would have thought of that when the job descriptions were done. The staff could receive a bonus payment on each occasion that they are asked to help out in that way. It is now waaaay too late for logical thought. Whilst security staff have usually belonged to the airport rather than the carrier, it should not prevent agreements being set up in advance and called as needed.
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Terminal security is generally not the responsibility of the carrier, but rather the owner of the facility. In this case it means BAA. Sorry, but that's how it is right now. And, to make things even more interesting, it's technically not BAA's responsibility either, but rather G4S, who has been contracted to provide it.
Of course, coordination between BAA (the infrastructure operator) and BA (the tenant) would be ideal, but we are not in an ideal world. It's BA's responsibility to notify their customers both land- and air-side that the flights are not leaving and that customers will need to go back to arrivals to receive their luggage back and then go air-side for further information.
Of course, such responsibility will be passed on like a hot potato because "it's not my job", and in the end the pax become annoyed and upset and those who do take the initiative are likely to get a bollocking from not only their colleagues but also their union and their superiors.
S.
Of course, coordination between BAA (the infrastructure operator) and BA (the tenant) would be ideal, but we are not in an ideal world. It's BA's responsibility to notify their customers both land- and air-side that the flights are not leaving and that customers will need to go back to arrivals to receive their luggage back and then go air-side for further information.
Of course, such responsibility will be passed on like a hot potato because "it's not my job", and in the end the pax become annoyed and upset and those who do take the initiative are likely to get a bollocking from not only their colleagues but also their union and their superiors.
S.
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One interesting note is that whilst this was going on there were 5 (presumably agency) staff twiddling their thumbs doing the liquid checks pre-security. Now how about some real innovative thinking that if there are no pax passing through security (cos there are no flights) they are redeployed in some way to assist the 1,000 milling around in the check in area.
The time of day didn't help either as a lot of shifts were finishing, not the customers problem but makes it harder to get people re booked and on their way to hotel / home.
Paxing All Over The World
A tad off topic but, I think, relevant in a sideways sort of a way (i.e. I have some spare time this morning)
The problem of outsourced staff working alongside others but not responding to the same line of command reminds me of the situation in September 2000 when UK lorry drivers were protesting about rising fuel prices.
As I recall, there was some illegal flying picketing and secondary picketing at distribution centres such as Buncefield
and tanker drivers were not going through the lines. The govt decided that, rather than send in the Police, they would use the 'soft' route. They called the oil companies and told them to have their drivers cross the illegal picket lines.
If I recall correctly, the oil companies found that the UK drivers had been outsourced to an Italian company who had sub-contracted them to a UK company ... It took a couple of days for the message from the UK oil big-wigs to get round the loop of UK-Italy-UK to give the drivers instructions when they were, effectively, parked outside!!! After that, I suspect that the chain of command was smoothed out a bit. But that is how all major companies are today - including govt. It is very rare that a manager has direct control of all their staff.
Being self-employed, I have been known to ignore my own instructions ...
The problem of outsourced staff working alongside others but not responding to the same line of command reminds me of the situation in September 2000 when UK lorry drivers were protesting about rising fuel prices.
As I recall, there was some illegal flying picketing and secondary picketing at distribution centres such as Buncefield
and tanker drivers were not going through the lines. The govt decided that, rather than send in the Police, they would use the 'soft' route. They called the oil companies and told them to have their drivers cross the illegal picket lines.If I recall correctly, the oil companies found that the UK drivers had been outsourced to an Italian company who had sub-contracted them to a UK company ... It took a couple of days for the message from the UK oil big-wigs to get round the loop of UK-Italy-UK to give the drivers instructions when they were, effectively, parked outside!!! After that, I suspect that the chain of command was smoothed out a bit. But that is how all major companies are today - including govt. It is very rare that a manager has direct control of all their staff.
Being self-employed, I have been known to ignore my own instructions ...
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Thursday morning, 6am, 5 minutes from a taxi drop off to the BA lounge for a cup of tea and a bacon butty (I can forgive the lack of brown sauce this time!)
Arriving back at 19.30, 15 minute wait for steps to arrive because there wasn't a space for us (had it been raining at Heathrow again?), but once on the bus it was about 3 minutes from getting off at the gate to the Heathrow Express.
i.e. it's great sometimes, but other times it can be a pain when you're at a remote stand
Arriving back at 19.30, 15 minute wait for steps to arrive because there wasn't a space for us (had it been raining at Heathrow again?), but once on the bus it was about 3 minutes from getting off at the gate to the Heathrow Express.
i.e. it's great sometimes, but other times it can be a pain when you're at a remote stand
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GwynM
Absolutely spot on - when it works it's world class (well almost) but when it doesn't it's a nightmare. Just glad I'm flying back into LGW tonight instead of T5 judging by the weather forecast.
Absolutely spot on - when it works it's world class (well almost) but when it doesn't it's a nightmare. Just glad I'm flying back into LGW tonight instead of T5 judging by the weather forecast.
Paxing All Over The World
That is the full story - it's a lottery even when the place is working at 50%. corrections on that percentage are welcome.
The number of remote stands is one of the biggest signs that there was not enough space to build the terminal to meet requirements.
The number of remote stands is one of the biggest signs that there was not enough space to build the terminal to meet requirements.
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Flew out last Saturday afternoon returned yesterday evening. About 4 mins to check in and through security. Coming back, 30 minutes from plane docking through to exiting customs with hold luggage - very impressed.
One thing noticeable though is it already seems to be getting crowded in the departure level.
One thing noticeable though is it already seems to be getting crowded in the departure level.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
As for personal experiences:-
I was "severely irritated" last week by having to wait 30 seconds for someone to check my passport (flying to JNB) before I could go through security, but otherwise my progress from Tube to lounge was dictated only by the speed at which I was prepared to walk and punch buttons on a screen.
On the return this morning, a real irritation from our stand being occupied by another aircraft - presumably a late arrival from somewhere. That was about 10 minutes' waiting. And one IRIS machine out of order. Otherwise, same speed limitations on my journey, with the addition of a loo stop.
