Why Flying in the USA Sucks
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Why Flying in the USA Sucks
Am I allowed to say, "sucks" on PPRUNE?
I suppose so.
Today, the news is screaming about how screwed up things are. Well, they are screwed up and I think it is time to point fingers.
I think that passengers are to blame. they wanted cheap flights...they got em.
but at what cost? super competition so bad that too many flights are scheduled so all run late.
airlines cutting pilot staff to the bone, so when bad wx hits, no reserve pilots! flights cancelled.
Some airlines haven't bought enough deice/anti ice fluid and they run out...flights cancelled.
oh well, I'm through venting!
I suppose so.
Today, the news is screaming about how screwed up things are. Well, they are screwed up and I think it is time to point fingers.
I think that passengers are to blame. they wanted cheap flights...they got em.
but at what cost? super competition so bad that too many flights are scheduled so all run late.
airlines cutting pilot staff to the bone, so when bad wx hits, no reserve pilots! flights cancelled.
Some airlines haven't bought enough deice/anti ice fluid and they run out...flights cancelled.
oh well, I'm through venting!
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Of course I want flights to be less expensive: I want everything to be less expensive - who-da-thunkit? OK, I'm not a frequent flyer, but I've done a fair amount in the last few years, mostly business-related. A 20% increase in fares, to make the experience more enjoyable, would not have been a show-stopper. What has stopped me flying, however, have been fares that went off the chart e.g. $4000 quote for an economy class return, just because I did not book the holiday season 11 months in advance.
However, I do not remember being asked if I wanted cheap flights at the expense of safety or comfort. How is that my fault? What did I do, or not do, to make that happen? Please explain, so we poor self-loading parcels can figure out how to get the pleasure out of flying that we used to. As things are, with airports and skies crowded, my answer to that question is: fly as little as possible.
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It sucks for many reasons, not least of which are:
1. Disgruntled staff / burned-out staff/zero turnover at the top of seniority lists at the majors/zero fresh faces
2. complete lack of investment in new aircraft/amenities/interiors
3. squandering of billions on silly pet projects...eg: TWA purchase by Don Carty
4. Government interference/lobbying by 'interested parties'
5. The 'expect everything for nothing' culture in the USA
6. 9/11
7. Chapt. 11 responsibility-dodging
There's something else that's hard to explain, but basically it amounts to a near-universal collapse of morale in the industry. The executive compensation issues of the past 3 years have really, really exascerbated the lack of enthusiasm in staff, and in a service industry, that's fatal. It seems to many of the employees that the sh1t sandwiches just keep coming, with no respite, and no sympathy from a justifiably angry public.
Managers had a brief window of opportunity during the last 2 years to make meaningful strides in morale and service, but totally missed the shot; many Wall St analysts, however, have not missed the fact that gross mismanagement of HR issues is coming home to roost. I've never before worked with staff who want to shut their airline down, permanently. They're just waiting for release to self-help. Amazing....it's the British-Rail-of-the-Air...
It is very possibly the worst managed industry in the USA at present, and that takes in some ground.
1. Disgruntled staff / burned-out staff/zero turnover at the top of seniority lists at the majors/zero fresh faces
2. complete lack of investment in new aircraft/amenities/interiors
3. squandering of billions on silly pet projects...eg: TWA purchase by Don Carty
4. Government interference/lobbying by 'interested parties'
5. The 'expect everything for nothing' culture in the USA
6. 9/11
7. Chapt. 11 responsibility-dodging
There's something else that's hard to explain, but basically it amounts to a near-universal collapse of morale in the industry. The executive compensation issues of the past 3 years have really, really exascerbated the lack of enthusiasm in staff, and in a service industry, that's fatal. It seems to many of the employees that the sh1t sandwiches just keep coming, with no respite, and no sympathy from a justifiably angry public.
Managers had a brief window of opportunity during the last 2 years to make meaningful strides in morale and service, but totally missed the shot; many Wall St analysts, however, have not missed the fact that gross mismanagement of HR issues is coming home to roost. I've never before worked with staff who want to shut their airline down, permanently. They're just waiting for release to self-help. Amazing....it's the British-Rail-of-the-Air...
It is very possibly the worst managed industry in the USA at present, and that takes in some ground.
Paxing All Over The World
What is described here is simply the same for every commercial field of endeavour in the world!
Yes, I know that it's your world that is not much fun at the moment but I can say the same of I.T. and telecomms after some 28 years in it. Everyone wants to pay less for everything, those that can, and will, pay more for the very best are a teeny-tiny percentage of the population. So the basic rule of Western style capitalism (as particularly promoted by the US of A) will tend to have this effect. No, it is not nice and Yes some things getter better and some get worse.
I sympathise with your 'venting' sevenstrokeroll, the current running and experiencing and living and working of (and in) commercial aviation is not much fun. It may indeed to be said 'to suck'!
Yes, I know that it's your world that is not much fun at the moment but I can say the same of I.T. and telecomms after some 28 years in it. Everyone wants to pay less for everything, those that can, and will, pay more for the very best are a teeny-tiny percentage of the population. So the basic rule of Western style capitalism (as particularly promoted by the US of A) will tend to have this effect. No, it is not nice and Yes some things getter better and some get worse.
I sympathise with your 'venting' sevenstrokeroll, the current running and experiencing and living and working of (and in) commercial aviation is not much fun. It may indeed to be said 'to suck'!
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Low cost carriers (ie, the competition) have to make the numbers work somehow, and that usually means reduced overhead, which includes a reduction in employee salary and services. I say increase fares to make passengers think again about just willy-nilly jumping on a plane and bring some dignity back to an industry that was once considered more than just a bus service.
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I resemble that remark...
Bnt, I doubt it..... You may possibly resent it though.
Although having worked in the airline business many years ago and as a full fare paying passenger now, I must admit that although blame is a strong word, pressure from the customer base has been a major contributory factor in the decline of service. We all want cheaper fares and we all want full service...well as we all know, you can't have your cake and eat it. The equation just doesn't add up. Airlines are not the only industry to have suffered, most have, because we all want something good for as little money as possible...and I include myself.
Bnt, I doubt it..... You may possibly resent it though.
Although having worked in the airline business many years ago and as a full fare paying passenger now, I must admit that although blame is a strong word, pressure from the customer base has been a major contributory factor in the decline of service. We all want cheaper fares and we all want full service...well as we all know, you can't have your cake and eat it. The equation just doesn't add up. Airlines are not the only industry to have suffered, most have, because we all want something good for as little money as possible...and I include myself.
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I don't know about you boys but I'm starting to see some benefits to foreign ownership.
If nothing else - it will get rid of our insane executive compensation levels. Pilot pay might actually improve.....
If nothing else - it will get rid of our insane executive compensation levels. Pilot pay might actually improve.....
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I'd say in a lot of cases, people generally do not value anything these days.
Dedicated professionals (which are becoming a dying breed) will generally have aspirations and be willing to work for them, but for the most part, people want a very quick fix with little effort. So many people I know want everything, now. Either a cheap TV with all the bells and whistles, bought for a couple of weeks salary, or a short break someplace for no more than the price of a bag of groceries. So things that were once valued for the work required, are now simply cheap consumer items.
Fairly inevitable, but lamentable, nonetheless.
Unfortunately, many of the same values that create this 'commercially expeditious' environment also mean that people themselves have significantly less value, as viewed either by themselves, or by others.
Quite simply, dignity needs to be brought back into a lot things, not just aviation.
I won't expect much movement in that direction, though.
Dedicated professionals (which are becoming a dying breed) will generally have aspirations and be willing to work for them, but for the most part, people want a very quick fix with little effort. So many people I know want everything, now. Either a cheap TV with all the bells and whistles, bought for a couple of weeks salary, or a short break someplace for no more than the price of a bag of groceries. So things that were once valued for the work required, are now simply cheap consumer items.
Fairly inevitable, but lamentable, nonetheless.
Unfortunately, many of the same values that create this 'commercially expeditious' environment also mean that people themselves have significantly less value, as viewed either by themselves, or by others.
Quite simply, dignity needs to be brought back into a lot things, not just aviation.
I won't expect much movement in that direction, though.
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Let me put on my 'SLF' hat for a moment.
(And let's not forget 99.9% of the SLF doesn't read PPRuNE.)
If I can get a 70 euro direct South-of-France to London return with a reputable (so far) low-cost airline, do you really expect me to pay 250+ euros for a 'regular-cost' flight with a transfer via CDG taking three times as long?
So far they haven't been dumping aircraft, they've been flying on-time, the aircraft are clean, and the service is pleasant.
A long as the management can keep a team together to provide this kind of service, I'll fly with them.
And a thought.....
If you were satisfied with what you were doing in your job, and pleased to be doing it, would you post on here? So maybe the comments on here may be somewhat biased?
I'm not denying hours and other safety issues. But it's strictly up to you to do something about it.... not the customer.
Christian
(And let's not forget 99.9% of the SLF doesn't read PPRuNE.)
If I can get a 70 euro direct South-of-France to London return with a reputable (so far) low-cost airline, do you really expect me to pay 250+ euros for a 'regular-cost' flight with a transfer via CDG taking three times as long?
So far they haven't been dumping aircraft, they've been flying on-time, the aircraft are clean, and the service is pleasant.
A long as the management can keep a team together to provide this kind of service, I'll fly with them.
And a thought.....
If you were satisfied with what you were doing in your job, and pleased to be doing it, would you post on here? So maybe the comments on here may be somewhat biased?
I'm not denying hours and other safety issues. But it's strictly up to you to do something about it.... not the customer.
Christian
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It's OUR fault...
It's OUR fault, Sevenstrokeroll (and Rraamjet). We had the opportunity to get someone's attention in the early eighties when there was talk about a nationwide suspension of service (SOS). Everyone was afraid of Ronald Reagan.
Then, several years back (but recent enough to be under Bush, the genius), we talked about a strike. The word came from the White House that, if we all walked, the National Guard would 'escort' us to work.
To be blunt, we take it in the shorts because we allow it. Many people I fly with are more interested in leaning the owner's manual for their new BMW and less interested in getting involved in the union.
A few years ago, I flew with a first officer who, during the entire four-day trip, bitched about his life as an airline pilot at our company. Finally, I asked him if he had voiced his concerns with XXXX. His reply, "Who the hell is he?" I responded, "He's your union rep!"
Sevenstrokeroll, Rrammjet, et. al......Your opinions are, in my opinion, quite valid, true, correct. The question is: What are we going to do about it?
Maybe our new union head will have the guts to be a true union man, as opposed to being just another politician.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Then, several years back (but recent enough to be under Bush, the genius), we talked about a strike. The word came from the White House that, if we all walked, the National Guard would 'escort' us to work.
To be blunt, we take it in the shorts because we allow it. Many people I fly with are more interested in leaning the owner's manual for their new BMW and less interested in getting involved in the union.
A few years ago, I flew with a first officer who, during the entire four-day trip, bitched about his life as an airline pilot at our company. Finally, I asked him if he had voiced his concerns with XXXX. His reply, "Who the hell is he?" I responded, "He's your union rep!"
Sevenstrokeroll, Rrammjet, et. al......Your opinions are, in my opinion, quite valid, true, correct. The question is: What are we going to do about it?
Maybe our new union head will have the guts to be a true union man, as opposed to being just another politician.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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But that's the whole point, Christiaan...
A new LCC comes along with cheap overheads, new staff, new aircraft, a fresh look...and does well for a while...until the workforce starts to mature and realises 'this isn't a career position and I'm not making anything out of this'....
And then they go stale...you still pay your low fare, but you notice that the interior is starting to look shabby and the staff are starting to show strain...fast forward 30 years since de-regulation provided an entirely fresh start for the US airline industry, and, well, here we are times ten. The LCC's just have a shorter shelf life before they lose the plot. Just look at Jet Blue...
You'll notice in my post further up the page that, for the most part, I've tried to lay the blame firmly on the industry's internal affairs rather than the passengers, for the very reason you state in your European example above.
A new LCC comes along with cheap overheads, new staff, new aircraft, a fresh look...and does well for a while...until the workforce starts to mature and realises 'this isn't a career position and I'm not making anything out of this'....
And then they go stale...you still pay your low fare, but you notice that the interior is starting to look shabby and the staff are starting to show strain...fast forward 30 years since de-regulation provided an entirely fresh start for the US airline industry, and, well, here we are times ten. The LCC's just have a shorter shelf life before they lose the plot. Just look at Jet Blue...
You'll notice in my post further up the page that, for the most part, I've tried to lay the blame firmly on the industry's internal affairs rather than the passengers, for the very reason you state in your European example above.
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So many responses! Glad to see it. But most are from europeans, not yet enough Americans have responded.
Ramjet seems to be on the right track.
Skydrol Leak: No, I don't speak or write proper english. I speak/write American English.
Ramjet seems to be on the right track.
Skydrol Leak: No, I don't speak or write proper english. I speak/write American English.
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Last edited by bnt; 28th Dec 2007 at 22:46.
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twoonefour
funny you mention bread. Bread is much more expensive today than 7 years ago...yet airline fares are not going up at such a rate.
I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago.
if one baker poisons a hundred loaves of bread...500 could die
if one pilot slams his plane into a building, thousands could die.
both jobs are important. but I know how much I spent learning to fly...and how easy it is to make a loaf of bread. I can get a book that will tell me how to bake and do quite well...try it with flying.
funny you mention bread. Bread is much more expensive today than 7 years ago...yet airline fares are not going up at such a rate.
I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago.
if one baker poisons a hundred loaves of bread...500 could die
if one pilot slams his plane into a building, thousands could die.
both jobs are important. but I know how much I spent learning to fly...and how easy it is to make a loaf of bread. I can get a book that will tell me how to bake and do quite well...try it with flying.
Buttonpusher
To be blunt, we take it in the shorts because we allow it. Many people I fly with are more interested in leaning the owner's manual for their new BMW and less interested in getting involved in the union.
A few years ago, I flew with a first officer who, during the entire four-day trip, bitched about his life as an airline pilot at our company. Finally, I asked him if he had voiced his concerns with XXXX. His reply, "Who the hell is he?" I responded, "He's your union rep
A few years ago, I flew with a first officer who, during the entire four-day trip, bitched about his life as an airline pilot at our company. Finally, I asked him if he had voiced his concerns with XXXX. His reply, "Who the hell is he?" I responded, "He's your union rep