Obese passenger wins case
From the Great White North's airline
Extra seat for comfort If an extra seat is required for comfort, please contact Air Canada Reservations. A single reservation & ticket are required in the name of the person travelling. Duplicate bookings under the same name are not permitted. Identical bookings made under different names or pseudonyms are not permitted. Charges for the extra seat vary by destination & by applicable fare at time of booking.
BTW the seats don't really fit me either, and i'm only 90kg
Extra seat for comfort If an extra seat is required for comfort, please contact Air Canada Reservations. A single reservation & ticket are required in the name of the person travelling. Duplicate bookings under the same name are not permitted. Identical bookings made under different names or pseudonyms are not permitted. Charges for the extra seat vary by destination & by applicable fare at time of booking.
BTW the seats don't really fit me either, and i'm only 90kg
Last edited by rigpiggy; 27th Nov 2007 at 13:17. Reason: addendum
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Whenever this subject appears on pprune, as it regularly does, sooner or later someone wearily points out that body fat results from what you stuff down your throat. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE.
Ipso facto, it's a lifestyle choice.
And that means that if you're too fat to fit in the seat you paid for, you have to buy another one. You have a range of options
* Don't fly
* Lose weight and save money
* Pay up and stop moaning
Ans spare us all the crap excuses like metabolic rates etc etc. If you eat less you get thinner, if you are an adult. The reference above to concentration camps may have been tasteless, but it proves the point.
If you don't want to be humiliated, don't seek to impose your mass of greasy, smelly body fat on passengers on each side of you. If you do it to me, I'll ask to be moved, or for you to be moved. You have no rights to make my journey hell.
Ipso facto, it's a lifestyle choice.
And that means that if you're too fat to fit in the seat you paid for, you have to buy another one. You have a range of options
* Don't fly
* Lose weight and save money
* Pay up and stop moaning
Ans spare us all the crap excuses like metabolic rates etc etc. If you eat less you get thinner, if you are an adult. The reference above to concentration camps may have been tasteless, but it proves the point.
If you don't want to be humiliated, don't seek to impose your mass of greasy, smelly body fat on passengers on each side of you. If you do it to me, I'll ask to be moved, or for you to be moved. You have no rights to make my journey hell.
To be honest I like the idea of putting obese people into the same row as one another so that they are all equally annoyed by each other.
If Ryanair did it then they could possibly also charge people in nearby seats an extra supplement for "entertainment value"!
If Ryanair did it then they could possibly also charge people in nearby seats an extra supplement for "entertainment value"!
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With 30% of the population being obese today, with the average male height increasing from around 165 cm to nearer 180 cm, you'd think that seats and interior dimensions would have increased over the years to cope with the general population.
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I fit a normal airline seat just fine, thank you., but...
The notion that one passenger is subsidising another passenger is absurd. Airlines are private enterprises that sell tickets. If you aren't happy with what you get, your problem is with the airline, not with some other passenger.
The notion that one passenger is subsidising another passenger is absurd. Airlines are private enterprises that sell tickets. If you aren't happy with what you get, your problem is with the airline, not with some other passenger.
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I was on a Charter flight down to Fuerteventura a few weeks back with a fairly big guy sat in front of me. I didn't have a problem with it, and I know Charter Airlines don't have alot of seat pitch.
Just after takeoff he was obviously uncomfortable and decided to try and make himself more comfortable by bouncing around his seat - The seat kept swinging back, then 10 minutes later he reclined his seat and it broke, so the seat was practically touching my face for the rest of the flight. To say annoyed was an understatement. I paid for my seat, I don't expect some fat fella who obviously has no respect at all to make my trip as uncomfortable as possible while he enjoys his.
I have nothing against fat people, but some of them should have some respect for others instead of thinking of themselves all the time.
-Sam
Just after takeoff he was obviously uncomfortable and decided to try and make himself more comfortable by bouncing around his seat - The seat kept swinging back, then 10 minutes later he reclined his seat and it broke, so the seat was practically touching my face for the rest of the flight. To say annoyed was an understatement. I paid for my seat, I don't expect some fat fella who obviously has no respect at all to make my trip as uncomfortable as possible while he enjoys his.
I have nothing against fat people, but some of them should have some respect for others instead of thinking of themselves all the time.
-Sam
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then 10 minutes later he reclined his seat
I had a similar large annoying tw@t infront of me one time, seat reclined for the entire flight. He was sleeping when we touched down with a fairly 'firm contact' at which point he woke up with a rather loud exclamtion of "Oh, Sh!t!!". Oh, how I chuckled to myself!! Justice was served on that occasion
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In my opinion, on aircraft with reduced seat pitch, Ryanair should be applauded for introducing non-reclining seats...it's about time some more carriers took this example. At least then you are guaranteed to get the space you paid for
Paxing All Over The World
I have only just come to this thread but have read every single post. It's best to try and ignore a lot of what has been said and I am sad that the anonymity of the internet has allowed quite so much bad manners.
One of the concerns that has surfaced is the problem of those that carry weight out to each side (unlike vanderaj) who may not be able to get down the aisle - except by walking sideways. THAT is a real concern but one that will not be stopped by the carriers for fear of a discrimination suit and I expect that we will see the evidence in a accident report at some stage.
vanderaj
My guess is that Boeing decided to use shorter straps to save money. Take NNNN seat belts per year and reduce the webbing by 10/15cm each and then add that to the other small savings of weight and money? But then, I always was cynical.
If he could not fit into the seat - then Yes, but remember I am pax not crew/staff.
Nobody in this thread has accused your wife - or any other disabled person - of it being their 'fault'. Please, that does not help your, otherwise, well presented case.
Yes, it is uncomfortable but that is what an unfettered capitalistic society will do! In due course, they will either decide that there is a special market that they can go for, or they will be compelled to change seating dimensions and pitch by the FAA. My guess is that some of them would like that, as it would give them an excuse to put the prices up!
However, it must be remembered that AA tried the seat pitch as a marketing pitch a couple of years ago - and it failed. They did big adverts, showing a couple of rows being pulled out from Coach, and all the other rows having their pitch opened up and all with no increase in price.
Guess what? people didn't care, it was the pure price on which they based their purchase. Yes, there might have been some other influences of FFMs and so forth but they did not get the extra pax to warrant it and so they have, as I understand it, put the pitch back. Looking at comparison tables on the usual seat comparison web sites, AA for International Domestic are at 32", matching most of their competitors. Incidentally, when looking through US Domestic Economy, I noticed that the ERJs of some carriers had seats that were up to 1" wider than the CRJs.
One of the concerns that has surfaced is the problem of those that carry weight out to each side (unlike vanderaj) who may not be able to get down the aisle - except by walking sideways. THAT is a real concern but one that will not be stopped by the carriers for fear of a discrimination suit and I expect that we will see the evidence in a accident report at some stage.
vanderaj
... the new gen 737's. For some reason, they have shorter straps as they expect midgets to fly on them.
I once had to sit next to a Muscle Mary [snip]. Unlike me, there was zero give - he was all hard muscle. He was broad across the chest and shoulders, and he had huge thighs. He probably had a 32" waist and a BMI in the low teens. He spread into my seat in a way I never spread into other's seats. Would you discriminate against him? I thought not.
I waited 35 minutes the last time I flew with my wife for the ground crew to find a wheelchair. It's really not the disabled person's fault that they can't walk, any more than it's a baby's fault for not being able to walk, or deaf people unable to hear or blind folks to see.
With 30% of the population being obese today, with the average male height increasing from around 165 cm to nearer 180 cm, you'd think that seats and interior dimensions would have increased over the years to cope with the general population. Instead, seat pitches have narrowed to stack max capacity, 17" widths have stayed the same since the 1950's - see Fokker F-27's for the same 17" width seats you get on any LCC today.
However, it must be remembered that AA tried the seat pitch as a marketing pitch a couple of years ago - and it failed. They did big adverts, showing a couple of rows being pulled out from Coach, and all the other rows having their pitch opened up and all with no increase in price.
Guess what? people didn't care, it was the pure price on which they based their purchase. Yes, there might have been some other influences of FFMs and so forth but they did not get the extra pax to warrant it and so they have, as I understand it, put the pitch back. Looking at comparison tables on the usual seat comparison web sites, AA for International Domestic are at 32", matching most of their competitors. Incidentally, when looking through US Domestic Economy, I noticed that the ERJs of some carriers had seats that were up to 1" wider than the CRJs.
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Oh no, you're not bitter
Did some of you have a fat wicked stepmother in your childhood or something?
Sheesh.
Even underweight people are uncomfortable in the coach seats of the newer planes. And God help you if you need to pee while the meal cart is in the aisle, whatever your size.
Andrew, I'm sorry for what you and your wife must go through when you travel by air. The person who suggested train travel as the alternative must not live in the US like I do...and must also know where a special train that crosses oceans is located !
Sheesh.
Even underweight people are uncomfortable in the coach seats of the newer planes. And God help you if you need to pee while the meal cart is in the aisle, whatever your size.
Andrew, I'm sorry for what you and your wife must go through when you travel by air. The person who suggested train travel as the alternative must not live in the US like I do...and must also know where a special train that crosses oceans is located !
I have had several extremely unpleasant flights sitting next to people who were just too large for the seat. I'm sorry, but I don't see why my comfort should be compromised to accomodate someone who, for whatever reason, does not fit in the seat. If somone does not fit the seat they should be required to pay for two: the normal commercial rules of engagement then apply, and they should buy the cheapest pair of seats they can find.
The basic point is that the seats are generally too small for the majority of people.
Having said that, I came back from AMS last May and had great difficulty fitting in a Club Europe seat - and needed an extension seat belt. 11 days later, I was sent into hospital and when the diuretic worked, I p**d 7.85 litres in 24 hours and lost 13kg in 2 days. So I didn't fit the seat because of illness - which gave me 28 days in hospital and I'm still not back at work. So not everybody who can't fit in a seat is deserving of condemnation. BTW, how do you lose weight when you're on a high dose of steroids?
Having said that, I came back from AMS last May and had great difficulty fitting in a Club Europe seat - and needed an extension seat belt. 11 days later, I was sent into hospital and when the diuretic worked, I p**d 7.85 litres in 24 hours and lost 13kg in 2 days. So I didn't fit the seat because of illness - which gave me 28 days in hospital and I'm still not back at work. So not everybody who can't fit in a seat is deserving of condemnation. BTW, how do you lose weight when you're on a high dose of steroids?
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Great thread!!!!
Simple, as pax we are freight (albeit self loading!) , and therefore pay by a combination of weight and size. So you get a standard seat width and weight allowance which would correspond to an average person. If you need more than the seat width you pay extra, and why not have solid boundaries between the seats so that those sitting next to an obese person doesnt suffer and the obese one does, seems only fair.
Of course you also pay extra for excess baggage, and why not?
Just imagine an aircraft that got a full load of 20 stone plus pax, it would seriously affect the take off weight calculation!!!
(assume average weight is 12 stone or 168 lbs 200 pax at 280 lbs gives extra weight of 112lbs x 200 22400lbs or 11 tons
)
with the population getting increasingly obese it may soon be necesary for safety to weigh everyone in when checking in...............
Simple, as pax we are freight (albeit self loading!) , and therefore pay by a combination of weight and size. So you get a standard seat width and weight allowance which would correspond to an average person. If you need more than the seat width you pay extra, and why not have solid boundaries between the seats so that those sitting next to an obese person doesnt suffer and the obese one does, seems only fair.
Of course you also pay extra for excess baggage, and why not?
Just imagine an aircraft that got a full load of 20 stone plus pax, it would seriously affect the take off weight calculation!!!
(assume average weight is 12 stone or 168 lbs 200 pax at 280 lbs gives extra weight of 112lbs x 200 22400lbs or 11 tons
)with the population getting increasingly obese it may soon be necesary for safety to weigh everyone in when checking in...............
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I just feel...that if you know you're overweight as a traveller....for whatever reason...and especially if you purchase a seat on a lcc...then have some consideration.
Trust me...if i ever sat next to you...i would have no hesitation in resting my elbows on your girth.
If you feel you have the right to invade my space,then only rightly so,i should do likewise...no...?
I'm average height and weight,and the average seat width can be a bit tight sometimes...never mind accommodating any human being,with a fat backside.!!
Book two seats,or upgrade.....it's such a simple solution.
Trust me...if i ever sat next to you...i would have no hesitation in resting my elbows on your girth.
If you feel you have the right to invade my space,then only rightly so,i should do likewise...no...?
I'm average height and weight,and the average seat width can be a bit tight sometimes...never mind accommodating any human being,with a fat backside.!!
Book two seats,or upgrade.....it's such a simple solution.
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In the old days, when Gatwick was at that funny little "Beehive Terminal" 1/4 mile up the road from where the airport is today, the aircraft were mainly DeHavilland Rapides, Doves or Herons or perhaps a Handley Page might make an appearance. These small propeller aircraft were very weight critical and the seats were sold to the passengers on a combined passenger and baggage allowance. (I believe the "Zeppelin" Airships also sold a combined passenger/baggage weight based ticket.)
Nowadays, we work on a notional average weight of 75kgs for an adult male 65 kgs for an adult female and 50 kgs for a child. Obviously, if we have too many portly passengers on a flight, we could get to the stage of offloading baggage or cargo to fly within the correct loading limits.
At BA, I have only ever seen a passenger charged for an extra seat because of his size once - and that was only because the flight was totally full and we had to off-load a passenger (deny boarding) in order to accommodate the overweight guy! It was done very tactfully - the Duty Officer sought a volunteer for off-loading and then took the obese man into a corner of our Executive Club lounge to tactfully explain out of earshot of anyone else that a second ticket would have to be purchased...........no humiliation, no tears, just a quiet businesslike discussion!
I don't think, in the case discussed, the passenger objected to buying a second or third seat - it was the humiliating way he was treated that upset him! .........and I would agree!
Fatness is not the fault of the person in many cases and it is wrong to ridicule them. Indeed, in the case of the lonely or sad "comfort eaters", their eating is a form of self-harm and they need help! As human beings, we are sociable creatures and it is probably the lack of companionship from one's fellow human beings that causes comfort eating!
1. Nobody ever told anyone that "Fast Food" would pile on the pounds - it just sort of happened!
2. So many saturated fats are hidden in everyday foods.
3. Lonely and sad people often eat for comfort.
4. No one ever tells you how fat you will get if you drink alcohol regularly!
5. There are medical conditions ((eg) underactive thyroid gland) which can result in excessive girth.
Nowadays, we work on a notional average weight of 75kgs for an adult male 65 kgs for an adult female and 50 kgs for a child. Obviously, if we have too many portly passengers on a flight, we could get to the stage of offloading baggage or cargo to fly within the correct loading limits.
At BA, I have only ever seen a passenger charged for an extra seat because of his size once - and that was only because the flight was totally full and we had to off-load a passenger (deny boarding) in order to accommodate the overweight guy! It was done very tactfully - the Duty Officer sought a volunteer for off-loading and then took the obese man into a corner of our Executive Club lounge to tactfully explain out of earshot of anyone else that a second ticket would have to be purchased...........no humiliation, no tears, just a quiet businesslike discussion!
I don't think, in the case discussed, the passenger objected to buying a second or third seat - it was the humiliating way he was treated that upset him! .........and I would agree!
Fatness is not the fault of the person in many cases and it is wrong to ridicule them. Indeed, in the case of the lonely or sad "comfort eaters", their eating is a form of self-harm and they need help! As human beings, we are sociable creatures and it is probably the lack of companionship from one's fellow human beings that causes comfort eating!
1. Nobody ever told anyone that "Fast Food" would pile on the pounds - it just sort of happened!
2. So many saturated fats are hidden in everyday foods.
3. Lonely and sad people often eat for comfort.
4. No one ever tells you how fat you will get if you drink alcohol regularly!
5. There are medical conditions ((eg) underactive thyroid gland) which can result in excessive girth.
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Fatness is not the fault of the person in many cases
Nobody ever told anyone that "Fast Food" would pile on the pounds
Saturated fats aren't hidden, except from the illiterate. They are listed on the packaging.
No one ever tells you how fat you will get if you drink alcohol regularly
And once more, it's not the underactive thyroid gland that makes you fat, it's the food you eat when you suffer that, and that is controllable if you want it to be. (Consensus view of 3 doctors in my family.)
There are other things make you fat, like being on insulin because you're on steroids. You have to have a certain amount of carbohydrate because of the insulin, and that with the steroids piles on weight. I've cut back on the food to the point where I've gone perilously close to hypoglycaemic several times, and still I'm increasing in weight. I'll be glad when I'm off steroids.
Paxing All Over The World
m500dpp
Actually, what happens is that, every year, there are test weight measurements made, to establish the changing average.
For many years, I recall, South African Airways did this. At check in there was a sign asking for volunteers to sit on the scales. The reading was hidden and formed no part of the check in. Across three months, they would have thousands of weights of people (age and gender noted) and they then used this information for themselves and sold the data to other airlines.
It was often done at quieter regional airports, rather than main cities. It is my understanding that this process continues so that airlines know the average weight - if not the girth! Weights are amended by the statisticians to allow for differences where required but the overall weight change is tracked.
In the very early days of flight, as bealine mentions, passengers had a combined weight limit but they were actually weighed with their luggage. There was a special seat and the bags and person placed on it. I have read of this continuing with the Dragon Rapide into the 1940s.
with the population getting increasingly obese it may soon be necesary for safety to weigh everyone in when checking in...
For many years, I recall, South African Airways did this. At check in there was a sign asking for volunteers to sit on the scales. The reading was hidden and formed no part of the check in. Across three months, they would have thousands of weights of people (age and gender noted) and they then used this information for themselves and sold the data to other airlines.
It was often done at quieter regional airports, rather than main cities. It is my understanding that this process continues so that airlines know the average weight - if not the girth! Weights are amended by the statisticians to allow for differences where required but the overall weight change is tracked.
In the very early days of flight, as bealine mentions, passengers had a combined weight limit but they were actually weighed with their luggage. There was a special seat and the bags and person placed on it. I have read of this continuing with the Dragon Rapide into the 1940s.
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I'm looking forward to the day when petrol is so expensive that all these people who eat too much, sit around all day and drive everywhere JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN actually have to get off their asses and haul their bulks around for themselves as our forefathers did. As a cyclist who does 150 miles per week and only eats 2 meals a day of light veggie food (plus a few beers at weekends) I am fascinated by how these overindulgent fatsos are going to find it when they have to get up a 1
hill under their own steam (and plenty of it, no doubt).
I do sympathise with people with medical conditions not caused by past overindulgence - but then you have to ask, why should they want to fly anyway? If you or I were incurably incontinent, would we organise our life around being in the centre of groups of people knowing we were stinking them out? I think not! There are very good reasons why the insane, handicapped etc, while being afforded the very best quality of life they can have in our society, nevertheless live caringly closeted apart from the general herd.
hill under their own steam (and plenty of it, no doubt).I do sympathise with people with medical conditions not caused by past overindulgence - but then you have to ask, why should they want to fly anyway? If you or I were incurably incontinent, would we organise our life around being in the centre of groups of people knowing we were stinking them out? I think not! There are very good reasons why the insane, handicapped etc, while being afforded the very best quality of life they can have in our society, nevertheless live caringly closeted apart from the general herd.
