Passengers refuse to fly after tanks overfilled
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I do think this whole thing got way out of hand very quickly and should have been handled in a way to calm the uninformed freight ...however... would it not be prudent for a pax who noticed something out of the ordinary to inform crew, especially thinking that the event was out of sight of the guys up front? (in this case it was a non event but what if otherwise?) I can't fault those who raised the alarm (that in itself takes a hell of a lot of courage), but do fault them in the way in which they did so and their complete lack of faith in the crew. What do you guys up at the pointy end say?
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Passengers refuse to fly after tanks overfilled
Now KATLPAX thats perhaps the most intelligent comment addressing THIS incident that I have read.
Perhaps the chronology of events as they happened may explain both the passengers concern and that of the responces from the crew.
Fuel leakage is far from being a rare event however, how many vacation travellers know this? Indeed for some of them it may be the first or second time that they have flown.
Perhaps the chronology of events as they happened may explain both the passengers concern and that of the responces from the crew.
Fuel leakage is far from being a rare event however, how many vacation travellers know this? Indeed for some of them it may be the first or second time that they have flown.
Now I realise that I am a lot older than a lot of you out there but I think this is one of those rare occasions when the captain needs to appear in the cabin and to address the punters. (But only ever on the ground).
It has been my experience in the past that screaming women tend to shut up when you appear in front of them - they start to feel not a little foolish.
I would only ever recommend that this course of action should be used extremely spareingly but sometimes it is necessary to calm the fears of your customers.
A simple explanation of what the problem is and how well you understand the problem and that you have absolutely no intentions of dying before you pick up your paycheck will usually do the trick. "Do you really think I want to die Madam?"
Sometimes we have to leave the comfort zone of our office and display our authority. That is all part of being a captain.
Incidentally, I don't know if any of you out there ever heard the story of the little old lady who got very upset after push-back in a Laker DC-10 heading for New York?
Basically, the old dear became claustrophobic having never ever flown in her life before. The aircraft was pushed back on to stand. While this was happening, Fred Laker drove across the airfield in his Roller, dived into the aeroplane and sat down beside the old dear.
He established very quickly that she was on her way to the USA to see the previously unseen grandchildren but she was too terrified to go on this flight.
Believe it or not, Fred went with her holding her hand. On arrival in JFK, he went straight back to LGW on the same aeroplane after a couple of hours.
When he got back, the airport authorities had fined him quite a lot of money for leaving his Roller airside!
How many airline MDs would have done that?
Sometimes we have to realise that if we expect our authority as captains of aircraft to be respected then we have to be prepared to be seen and not just hide in our offices and issue edicts.
Now I strongly wish to point out that we should NEVER go back into the cabin in order to sort out disputes in flight. That's when it used to be useful to have a Flight Engineer armed with an axe!
So much for progress.
It has been my experience in the past that screaming women tend to shut up when you appear in front of them - they start to feel not a little foolish.
I would only ever recommend that this course of action should be used extremely spareingly but sometimes it is necessary to calm the fears of your customers.
A simple explanation of what the problem is and how well you understand the problem and that you have absolutely no intentions of dying before you pick up your paycheck will usually do the trick. "Do you really think I want to die Madam?"
Sometimes we have to leave the comfort zone of our office and display our authority. That is all part of being a captain.
Incidentally, I don't know if any of you out there ever heard the story of the little old lady who got very upset after push-back in a Laker DC-10 heading for New York?
Basically, the old dear became claustrophobic having never ever flown in her life before. The aircraft was pushed back on to stand. While this was happening, Fred Laker drove across the airfield in his Roller, dived into the aeroplane and sat down beside the old dear.
He established very quickly that she was on her way to the USA to see the previously unseen grandchildren but she was too terrified to go on this flight.
Believe it or not, Fred went with her holding her hand. On arrival in JFK, he went straight back to LGW on the same aeroplane after a couple of hours.
When he got back, the airport authorities had fined him quite a lot of money for leaving his Roller airside!
How many airline MDs would have done that?
Sometimes we have to realise that if we expect our authority as captains of aircraft to be respected then we have to be prepared to be seen and not just hide in our offices and issue edicts.
Now I strongly wish to point out that we should NEVER go back into the cabin in order to sort out disputes in flight. That's when it used to be useful to have a Flight Engineer armed with an axe!
So much for progress.
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"Half a Ton"
!!!!!!! blimey Thats loads ? well 625 ltrs.. if that much "leaked" I would be more than concerned.
That much fuel on the apron would amount to a small lake. It would be more like an a/c tech problem, than over fuelling unless crew are asking to fill the wings (752's) with 13.2T. thus pushing the limits and filling the vent boxes, and so fuel does have a tendency to leak, or in 737's over riding closed valves( topping off the tanks) will do the same.
!!!!!!! blimey Thats loads ? well 625 ltrs.. if that much "leaked" I would be more than concerned.That much fuel on the apron would amount to a small lake. It would be more like an a/c tech problem, than over fuelling unless crew are asking to fill the wings (752's) with 13.2T. thus pushing the limits and filling the vent boxes, and so fuel does have a tendency to leak, or in 737's over riding closed valves( topping off the tanks) will do the same.
There's a very simple answer to avoid situations of this nature - instead of requiring all window blinds to be up prior to take-off, require them all to be down after push-back, and there wouldn't be any problems like this .....
Jack
Jack
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As FuelBoy mentioned, 1/2 a ton(!!!) is not an acceptable amount. To put it into context, 1/2 ton is approx 600 ltrs, here in the real world any spillage over 100 ltrs has, I repeat, HAS, tobe reported to the Environment Agency as a serious spillage. I am not involved with aviation, but from what I have read on these forum the industry is severely lacking in Health, Safety and Environmental awareness in this area. Everyone here seems to dismiss fuel leakage as an everyday event, would you say that if you were driving down the high street with every other car that passed you by leaking petrol, passerbys smoking, electrical sources as you walk by the lampost etc etc. Are there no incident investigations when this happens? Is it continually ignored? One day it will turn around and bite. People may say I'm exaggerating, but Buncefield was caused by a series of two or three failsafes failing, so it DOES happen!
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Are there no incident investigations when this happens? Is it continually ignored?
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Notifiable
In my business (auto manufacture) to comply with ISO 14001 a spill as described above would be regarded as a hugely significant incident.
I am fairly sure that aviation professionals would not dismiss this lightly and the see it as a "low risk" incident. If anyone has information regarding the subsequent corrective actions, I for one, would be interested
I am fairly sure that aviation professionals would not dismiss this lightly and the see it as a "low risk" incident. If anyone has information regarding the subsequent corrective actions, I for one, would be interested
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All it is, is conformity, quite a lot of people still have a fear of flying or dislike it. If one person sees something adnormal which they did in this case, then others will hear about it and it will spread. You cannot blame them if they have a fear and all of a sudden hear that fuel is leaking, if didn't know any better i would be the first one off if someone saw that fuel was leaking.
In addition you can't say that they are over acting as you weren't in the situation, thus a number of mishaps may have lead up to the point of seeing fuel leaked. I.E taxing to faster than normal!
In addition you can't say that they are over acting as you weren't in the situation, thus a number of mishaps may have lead up to the point of seeing fuel leaked. I.E taxing to faster than normal!
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"Half a ton" was exactly what the captain said in his first announcement to us just before we disembarked - whether this was said for effect or purely a generalisation I do not know. However there are two points to be made on this; a. I do not recall smelling an excessive amount of avaiation fuel (a smell I am perfectly familiar with from my offshore helicopter and fixed-wing flights), and b. there was no visible lake beneath the wing, more a sizeable puddle.
With regard to the signing off of the Tech Log there was a man who appeared to be an engineer who entered the cockpit for a moment before the departure.
The aircraft was indeed a 737, 700 series.
With regard to the signing off of the Tech Log there was a man who appeared to be an engineer who entered the cockpit for a moment before the departure.
The aircraft was indeed a 737, 700 series.
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frequentflyer2,
I'm with you.
That's exactly what they are. They do not have a PPL, or an ATPL, or an aeronautical engineering degree.
They expect an aircraft to take them from A to B, like a bus, a train or a car (and as safely, please).
So when things appear to be coming apart at the seams, they panic.
I don't blame them.
I'm with you.
.... basically uneducated pond life ....
They expect an aircraft to take them from A to B, like a bus, a train or a car (and as safely, please).
So when things appear to be coming apart at the seams, they panic.
I don't blame them.
Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 27th Jun 2007 at 22:29.
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oh dear!!don't think i'll bother flying again until i get meself edjumicated about such silly things like fuel leaks
seriously though,i wonder if said a/c was the now infamous GGSPN?Jeez,that a/c has nothing but bad luck wherever it goes,does it??Mind you,GOTDA doesn't fare any better half the time!!!The day these pair left GLA,me and my colleagues almost threw a big party
seriously though,i wonder if said a/c was the now infamous GGSPN?Jeez,that a/c has nothing but bad luck wherever it goes,does it??Mind you,GOTDA doesn't fare any better half the time!!!The day these pair left GLA,me and my colleagues almost threw a big party
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With respect, it's not about communication at all, it's about managing passengers expectations
I will ignore Zebedies post which also heaps blame on the hapless Pax, but this one quoted below takes the cake:
I know that Sunshine, and you know it, as do many others. The point is that the passengers don't know its not uncommon do they?????
If I was a Pax and I saw something that to me was unusual and, in my ignorance, potentially life threatening, what do you bloody expect me to do?
The smartest pilots take the trouble to manage their passengers expectations, by telling them as early as possible what is happening and why. It's difficult to know if this problem could be foreseen, but a simple message in advance to the effect that "You may see some fuel coming out of the wing vents, this is normal and not hazardous" and no problem.
It's quite easy to drive a passenger into hysterics very quickly if they don't know whats going on, as thoughtless gits in Cessna's pointing to the red "wing release button" can testify.
I will ignore Zebedies post which also heaps blame on the hapless Pax, but this one quoted below takes the cake:
Sometimes British passengers can just be a total embarrassment. All this alarm probably came from one or two passenger 'loudmouths' egging the others on. The scenes of hysteria must have been excrutiating. Fuel draining out of vents is a not uncommon event.
If I was a Pax and I saw something that to me was unusual and, in my ignorance, potentially life threatening, what do you bloody expect me to do?
The smartest pilots take the trouble to manage their passengers expectations, by telling them as early as possible what is happening and why. It's difficult to know if this problem could be foreseen, but a simple message in advance to the effect that "You may see some fuel coming out of the wing vents, this is normal and not hazardous" and no problem.
It's quite easy to drive a passenger into hysterics very quickly if they don't know whats going on, as thoughtless gits in Cessna's pointing to the red "wing release button" can testify.
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It is the airline's duty to inform passengers sufficiently such that they do not panic. If they do react badly to an unusual event, it is not their fault.
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It is the airline's duty to inform passengers sufficiently such that they do not panic
It is in the airline's interest to inform passengers of technical issues in such a way that will attempt to allay any concerns that they may have.
It would appear that the situation was not controlled by cabin or flight crew adequately to ensure that SLF concerns were defused before the situation reached a point where the Captain considered that takeoff was inadvisable given the disturbance in the cabin.
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The thought running through passengers minds, especially Sun readers probably went, whats that coming from the wings? Must be fuel, hey thats how Concorde turned into a flaming torch, panic everybody.
I agree with JW411 Had one of the Pilots appeared in the cabin and had a look and said "There's a fuel venting out let there designed to SAFELY vent fuel in the event of a sight overload, then all might have been well. Otherwise people will assume they are just guessing, as at to the cause.
I agree with JW411 Had one of the Pilots appeared in the cabin and had a look and said "There's a fuel venting out let there designed to SAFELY vent fuel in the event of a sight overload, then all might have been well. Otherwise people will assume they are just guessing, as at to the cause.
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I've been trying to think of an analogy. Try this.
You're in the dentist's chair waiting for the anaesthetic to take hold - the dentist and assistant are next door doing some paperwork. Suddenly, blood starts spurting intermittently from your gum where the needle went in. You alert the dentists, but he doesn't look up or come in he just says "there's sometimes a little blood from the gum - perfectly normal".
Are you reassured completely, or do those stories of people dying in dentists' chairs come to mind? Is your attitude to someone who insists on the dentist coming and looking that they shouldn't hold up the queue of patients outside?
In general, I'm curious about pilots - do they generally have a "the expert knows best, I'll not worry about it" attitude to life? I'm an academic - if your child comes home saying they've had a bad experience in a university class do you say "well, the lecturer has been doing this for a long time - he knows what he's doing - you should calm down and let him do his job"?
I'm guessing that trust in experts is no more widespread among pilots than among the rest of the population.
You're in the dentist's chair waiting for the anaesthetic to take hold - the dentist and assistant are next door doing some paperwork. Suddenly, blood starts spurting intermittently from your gum where the needle went in. You alert the dentists, but he doesn't look up or come in he just says "there's sometimes a little blood from the gum - perfectly normal".
Are you reassured completely, or do those stories of people dying in dentists' chairs come to mind? Is your attitude to someone who insists on the dentist coming and looking that they shouldn't hold up the queue of patients outside?
In general, I'm curious about pilots - do they generally have a "the expert knows best, I'll not worry about it" attitude to life? I'm an academic - if your child comes home saying they've had a bad experience in a university class do you say "well, the lecturer has been doing this for a long time - he knows what he's doing - you should calm down and let him do his job"?
I'm guessing that trust in experts is no more widespread among pilots than among the rest of the population.
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Reading the thread....
I am not surprised the "pond life" and the "sun readers" eventually went ballistic.
It started with...
""we were asked to unbuckle our seatbelts whilst the aircraft was being refuelled."" (did they say why?)
O.K professionals, why should a plane load of passengers unbuckle their seat belts while the plane is being re-fueled. (not a sun reader, maybe it is so if something goes wrong you can get out faster?) Worry factor 1.
""captain came on the intercom and announced that due to a faulty fuel filter "about half a ton" of fuel had spilled onto the tarmac and that we should get off while this was cleaned up."" Worry factor 2
O.K!!! now the pond life realise why they had to take their seatbelts off while re-fueling. so they could get off the aircraft faster when half a ton was spilled.
Fuel is dangerous stuff they now realise. No seatbelts on when re-fueling. Got that!
Fuel spill means they have to get off the aircraft while the spill is cleaned up. Pond life and Sun Readers are now pretty well educated in re-fueling dangers and fuel spills. They learn fast!
""The Captain came on to the tannoy and told us that the overflow of fuel seen from the wing was a normal occurrence in this kind of situation""
All of a sudden, fuel is nice, fuel squirting out of the wings is OK.
TWO lessons in fuel and re-fueling and even people dumb as a rock get the idea.
The fuel is supposed to be in tanks, not on the ground or squirting into the air.
It started with...
""we were asked to unbuckle our seatbelts whilst the aircraft was being refuelled."" (did they say why?)
O.K professionals, why should a plane load of passengers unbuckle their seat belts while the plane is being re-fueled. (not a sun reader, maybe it is so if something goes wrong you can get out faster?) Worry factor 1.
""captain came on the intercom and announced that due to a faulty fuel filter "about half a ton" of fuel had spilled onto the tarmac and that we should get off while this was cleaned up."" Worry factor 2
O.K!!! now the pond life realise why they had to take their seatbelts off while re-fueling. so they could get off the aircraft faster when half a ton was spilled.
Fuel is dangerous stuff they now realise. No seatbelts on when re-fueling. Got that!
Fuel spill means they have to get off the aircraft while the spill is cleaned up. Pond life and Sun Readers are now pretty well educated in re-fueling dangers and fuel spills. They learn fast!
""The Captain came on to the tannoy and told us that the overflow of fuel seen from the wing was a normal occurrence in this kind of situation""
All of a sudden, fuel is nice, fuel squirting out of the wings is OK.
TWO lessons in fuel and re-fueling and even people dumb as a rock get the idea.
The fuel is supposed to be in tanks, not on the ground or squirting into the air.