Passengers refuse to fly after tanks overfilled
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All sounds like perfectly normal human flight reaction to me. Put tired people in a stressful position they don't understand and then show them something that looks dangerous. How do you expect them to react? They want to run away. Only they can't. I suspect there was also an element of thinking that the "pilot can't see what's happening from up front so how does he knows it's safe".
Edit: Actually Octavius it started even earlier when pax heard the flight had to divert due to a fuel problem.
Edit: Actually Octavius it started even earlier when pax heard the flight had to divert due to a fuel problem.
...a rumour that the outbound flight ex ABZ had been forced to divert to Stansted to refuel
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I once saw something like what happened to that aircraft. I was waiting to board and the aircraft was parked just outside the terminal building.
They were re-fueling it, and some liquid was pouring out of the left engine. (it was an md11 rear engine sort of russian plane.)
Out came several "engineers" carrying 5 gallon buckets and a few more with a ladder.
The buckets were placed to catch the liquid, (and soon a chain was formed where the buckets were carried off somewhere....)
To cut a long story short, the flight was delayed 4 hours and the left engine was just dripping when we all got on. (there was still the bucket guys collecting the drips.
I just wanted to go home!!!!!!
They were re-fueling it, and some liquid was pouring out of the left engine. (it was an md11 rear engine sort of russian plane.)
Out came several "engineers" carrying 5 gallon buckets and a few more with a ladder.
The buckets were placed to catch the liquid, (and soon a chain was formed where the buckets were carried off somewhere....)
To cut a long story short, the flight was delayed 4 hours and the left engine was just dripping when we all got on. (there was still the bucket guys collecting the drips.
I just wanted to go home!!!!!!
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It's difficult to know if this problem could be foreseen, but a simple message in advance to the effect that "You may see some fuel coming out of the wing vents, this is normal and not hazardous" and no problem.
However I do agree with JW411 that the situation might not have been aggravated this much if the captain or the fo had come into the cabin and explained the situation calmly. But then again, it might have been to busy on the flight deck to take the time to walk to the back.
Beyond the call of duty for Flyglobespan to return the passengers, I would have thought. If they choose to diregard the information and reassurance of the Captain, in the process delaying all the other pax, then they should have to deal with the inconvenience of getting home themselves.
C-T
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Based on what I've read here about the situation, I would not have been happy continuing with the flight - and I'm a 737 captain, not just a "Sun" reader. Obviously I don't know the full ins and outs of what happened on the day, but my thoughts are....
Fuel leaking from the vent system is NOT an every day occurrence. The main role of the fuel vent system, as I understand it, is to allow ambient air to go into the tanks as the fuel is burned in order to avoid a vacuum occurring in the tank. Fuel should only pass out through the vent if too much has been pumped into the tank, or if it is sloshing around violently in the tank. I don't see how a faulty fuel filter can be blamed for fuel leaking from the vent system, so maybe the initial leak in ALC was not from the vent system but from somewhere around the engine? So, depending on where fuel was coming from before push back and what the Captain, alledgedly, said was the problem, I would begin to have doubts. This is along with the rumour that the aircraft had to divert to STN due to a fuel problem.....
Once fuel had already leaked out of the vent system due to overfilling, I would not expect it to then start to come out on the runway - unless it was coming out of the wing on the outside of a very fast turn on to the runway!!!
I welcome questions/concerns from the passengers and therefore take them seriously. Obviously you do your best to reassure them based on what you KNOW is going on, but in this situation it would have taken a lot to convince me.
Fuel leaking from the vent system is NOT an every day occurrence. The main role of the fuel vent system, as I understand it, is to allow ambient air to go into the tanks as the fuel is burned in order to avoid a vacuum occurring in the tank. Fuel should only pass out through the vent if too much has been pumped into the tank, or if it is sloshing around violently in the tank. I don't see how a faulty fuel filter can be blamed for fuel leaking from the vent system, so maybe the initial leak in ALC was not from the vent system but from somewhere around the engine? So, depending on where fuel was coming from before push back and what the Captain, alledgedly, said was the problem, I would begin to have doubts. This is along with the rumour that the aircraft had to divert to STN due to a fuel problem.....
Once fuel had already leaked out of the vent system due to overfilling, I would not expect it to then start to come out on the runway - unless it was coming out of the wing on the outside of a very fast turn on to the runway!!!
I welcome questions/concerns from the passengers and therefore take them seriously. Obviously you do your best to reassure them based on what you KNOW is going on, but in this situation it would have taken a lot to convince me.
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Insults
Referring to passengers as " unqualified pond life etc " takes the biscuit -
I am not even a PPL but have done a lot of flying, since 1979...one of my most recent experiences was having a drugged / hung over CPL pass out, leaving me circling with thoughts of asking for a straight in approach - he came around before that career-limiting move had to be used.
I know another airline pilot who has kept his epilepsy quiet.
I have engineering & aeronautics training - don't write off all passengers as ' Sun readers ' - as I mentioned before, airline pilots seem to be very precious, for highly tested bus drivers.
Military test pilots are a great deal more professional, and are usually intelligent enough to listen if a problem arises, and either explain it or sort it.
Fuel venting is one thing, dumping that amount on the tarmac is enough to raise eyebrows...
I am not even a PPL but have done a lot of flying, since 1979...one of my most recent experiences was having a drugged / hung over CPL pass out, leaving me circling with thoughts of asking for a straight in approach - he came around before that career-limiting move had to be used.
I know another airline pilot who has kept his epilepsy quiet.
I have engineering & aeronautics training - don't write off all passengers as ' Sun readers ' - as I mentioned before, airline pilots seem to be very precious, for highly tested bus drivers.
Military test pilots are a great deal more professional, and are usually intelligent enough to listen if a problem arises, and either explain it or sort it.
Fuel venting is one thing, dumping that amount on the tarmac is enough to raise eyebrows...
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Double Zero,
It was probably me who used the term "pond life", admittedly tongue-in-cheek... sorry if somebody felt insulted.
As to "unqualified", yes, the average passenger is not qualified to judge if a given situation is normal or dangerous. Why should he be? He has bought a ticket to be transported from A to B, and AFAIK he is not required to sit a technical and psychological exam before being issued the ticket.
Not to mention that maybe he is scared sh!tless of flying, but he has to fly for one reason or another.
Maybe he's already at the end of his tether after long waits, rude security, a three-quarter mile walk to the aircraft and then being seated next to a yobbo.
So he's already no longer fully rational, and in a situation where he has little if any control over what's going on.
Add bedlam in the cabin, and you may well be pushing him over the edge.
It was probably me who used the term "pond life", admittedly tongue-in-cheek... sorry if somebody felt insulted.
As to "unqualified", yes, the average passenger is not qualified to judge if a given situation is normal or dangerous. Why should he be? He has bought a ticket to be transported from A to B, and AFAIK he is not required to sit a technical and psychological exam before being issued the ticket.
Not to mention that maybe he is scared sh!tless of flying, but he has to fly for one reason or another.
Maybe he's already at the end of his tether after long waits, rude security, a three-quarter mile walk to the aircraft and then being seated next to a yobbo.
So he's already no longer fully rational, and in a situation where he has little if any control over what's going on.
Add bedlam in the cabin, and you may well be pushing him over the edge.
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I do not think that the pilots have any direct indication that fuel is pouring out the vents. They might notice that the amount of fuel is decreasing as a secondary effect. So notifying the passengers early might be tricky.
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PaperTiger,
The photos, that Hobie posted a link to, showed a quite different aircraft type doing pipi from almost exactly the same location.
Is there a fuel vent/overflow valve in about that location, or was it a "true" leak in both cases?
The photos, that Hobie posted a link to, showed a quite different aircraft type doing pipi from almost exactly the same location.
Is there a fuel vent/overflow valve in about that location, or was it a "true" leak in both cases?
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ChristianJ,
I agree that some passengers might be at the end of their tether one way or another, and won't be as qualified as you; but they're not all 'Sun readers' and might have something useful to mention - I refer again to the Kegworth tragedy, and quite a few others in the short history of aviation.
Might be worth listening before you discount it...
I agree that some passengers might be at the end of their tether one way or another, and won't be as qualified as you; but they're not all 'Sun readers' and might have something useful to mention - I refer again to the Kegworth tragedy, and quite a few others in the short history of aviation.
Might be worth listening before you discount it...
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I am a pax, and nothing else. I don't read The Sun.
Please remember that we may be making critical decisions just as you pilots are: "Ooh, should the fuel be pouring out of the wing like that? ... I'm sure it's OK, the pilot know's what s/he's doing ... but what if it's not OK? ... maybe I'm the only person who's noticed ... shall I say something? ... I don't want to make a scene ... but I'd feel a fool if we all perished in an exploding fireball ... wait a mo, we're careering down the runway .. it's now or never... "*
I am (possibly) only here today because my Dad, as a passenger in a car, screamed at the driver who hadn't noticed a red light. He could have kept quiet. I frequently do, even when I feel my right foot going for the imaginary brake pedal.
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* Going off-topic, but I remember a commotion going on as we began the take-off roll at NCL a couple of years ago. Passenger appeared to be having some sort of fit. Was really impressed by the way the cabin crew looked at the situation, and made a swift judgement. The intercom was picked up and seconds later we were slowing to a halt. Pax was fine in the end, and we were away again shortly, but it must take a brave cabin crew to call the pilot at that stage.
Please remember that we may be making critical decisions just as you pilots are: "Ooh, should the fuel be pouring out of the wing like that? ... I'm sure it's OK, the pilot know's what s/he's doing ... but what if it's not OK? ... maybe I'm the only person who's noticed ... shall I say something? ... I don't want to make a scene ... but I'd feel a fool if we all perished in an exploding fireball ... wait a mo, we're careering down the runway .. it's now or never... "*
I am (possibly) only here today because my Dad, as a passenger in a car, screamed at the driver who hadn't noticed a red light. He could have kept quiet. I frequently do, even when I feel my right foot going for the imaginary brake pedal.
-
* Going off-topic, but I remember a commotion going on as we began the take-off roll at NCL a couple of years ago. Passenger appeared to be having some sort of fit. Was really impressed by the way the cabin crew looked at the situation, and made a swift judgement. The intercom was picked up and seconds later we were slowing to a halt. Pax was fine in the end, and we were away again shortly, but it must take a brave cabin crew to call the pilot at that stage.
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Military test pilots are a great deal more professional, and are usually intelligent enough to listen if a problem arises, and either explain it or sort it.
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Double Zero,
I fully get your point.
But my remark was more directed to some posts that seemed to denigrate the "pond life" and "Sun readers" that seem to have created the bedlam. They've paid for their ticket like anybody else, and until the day they will be required to sit a technical and psychological exam before getting their ticket, they will be part of us SLF.
I merely tried to say that I could understand the way things got out of hand.
I agree that some passengers might be at the end of their tether one way or another, and won't be as qualified as you; but they're not all 'Sun readers' and might have something useful to mention
But my remark was more directed to some posts that seemed to denigrate the "pond life" and "Sun readers" that seem to have created the bedlam. They've paid for their ticket like anybody else, and until the day they will be required to sit a technical and psychological exam before getting their ticket, they will be part of us SLF.
I merely tried to say that I could understand the way things got out of hand.
