Uk Airport Chaos (hand wringing thread)
Sims Fly Virtually
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"Knee-Jerk Reaction" - We are hearing that there are 5 more "suspects" that police are seeking. These 5 could have been in posession of (or easily able to take possession of) the intended explosive materials. Our "masters" were IMHO justified in taking immediate and blanket steps to avoid a possible disaster. (better than to have first formed a committee to look at what precautions should be taken!)
Now it's time (and now there is time) for a more careful look at the options, and we will hopefully see a more moderate, yet more effective solution appearing.
Liquids brought on-board - There's not many people who need to bring liquids from their home for a flight (baby-food and medicine excepted) so sales of (reasonably well-secured) water, Pepsi, etc in the departure area after security will probably be considered acceptable.
Perhaps thought will now be given to (as posted by myself and many others over the years) the universality of "arrivals duty-free". This will avoid the opportunity for "Mohammed" (apologies to Mohammeds who are members here,but you get the point) suddenly standing up in-flight having doused several seats with inflammable liquid and armed with a couple of "Glasgow knives"!
Lap-tops, Mobiles, PDAs - I don't think most pax really need their lappy from the time they check in to the time they leave their arrival airport; Mine stays inthe bag and the only reason that I don't want to "check" it is security and damage concerns. I would happily pack the lap-top bag in my suitcase (with layers of clothing around,above and below, as I do with my "portable" printer when on a long trip!) if I could be certain that, wherever I was in the world,it would still be there when I arrived.
The lap-top bag also serves as my brief-case - containing other items that I will need during the flight; a good book, maybe an MP3 player and spare batteries, toothbrush, on a long-haul red-eye.
As for the phone - slightly different. When I am just about to board, I redirect the phone to my office; often somebody is trying to reach me during the 2-hour check-in period. On arrival, it is very convenient to be able to call whoever is meeting you to letthemknow that you are off the aircraft and will be landside in half, one or two hours (depending on your arrival airport!)
Although I virtually never use my "mobile office" when flying, the nature of my job means that I have to carry a lot of stuff even when I go on holiday, in case (as always happens) I need to do my work during my "holiday". I need my "office" there when I leave the airport, in one ppiece!
Good luck to those whose job it is to sort out how to inconvenience travellers as little as possible, while protecting them (and those under the flight path!) to the maximum.
Now it's time (and now there is time) for a more careful look at the options, and we will hopefully see a more moderate, yet more effective solution appearing.
Liquids brought on-board - There's not many people who need to bring liquids from their home for a flight (baby-food and medicine excepted) so sales of (reasonably well-secured) water, Pepsi, etc in the departure area after security will probably be considered acceptable.
Perhaps thought will now be given to (as posted by myself and many others over the years) the universality of "arrivals duty-free". This will avoid the opportunity for "Mohammed" (apologies to Mohammeds who are members here,but you get the point) suddenly standing up in-flight having doused several seats with inflammable liquid and armed with a couple of "Glasgow knives"!
Lap-tops, Mobiles, PDAs - I don't think most pax really need their lappy from the time they check in to the time they leave their arrival airport; Mine stays inthe bag and the only reason that I don't want to "check" it is security and damage concerns. I would happily pack the lap-top bag in my suitcase (with layers of clothing around,above and below, as I do with my "portable" printer when on a long trip!) if I could be certain that, wherever I was in the world,it would still be there when I arrived.
The lap-top bag also serves as my brief-case - containing other items that I will need during the flight; a good book, maybe an MP3 player and spare batteries, toothbrush, on a long-haul red-eye.
As for the phone - slightly different. When I am just about to board, I redirect the phone to my office; often somebody is trying to reach me during the 2-hour check-in period. On arrival, it is very convenient to be able to call whoever is meeting you to letthemknow that you are off the aircraft and will be landside in half, one or two hours (depending on your arrival airport!)
Although I virtually never use my "mobile office" when flying, the nature of my job means that I have to carry a lot of stuff even when I go on holiday, in case (as always happens) I need to do my work during my "holiday". I need my "office" there when I leave the airport, in one ppiece!
Good luck to those whose job it is to sort out how to inconvenience travellers as little as possible, while protecting them (and those under the flight path!) to the maximum.
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The reactions of the UK Goverment, or more correctly the DfT can be seen as over the top, if looked at in isolation and only in connection with whats been reported.
Of course the Security Service, Police and therefore the Goverment, obviously have a great deal more information than has been reported in the papers. Given that, they are in a better position to assess the required security mesures than we are on here.
For instance, is this a shutting the door after a non event? Possibly it is. Then again, is it because there is inteligence that are other cells working on the same project as those arrested yesterday?
Even if there isn't inteligence, could it be that this is intended as a deterent, in case there are others intending to try?
Dealing with FL's point, inplying that it could be the UK's policies abroad and relationship with the US that makes us a traget. There may be some justification in that question being asked, if one only looks at it superficially. I would sugest that it may be a factor, but not the whole story.
The spread of Islamic fundamentalism is more likley to be the cause. The UK has a large number of Muslims, a number of who feel disillutioned with their lot. Some of those are ideal candidates for recruitment to the cause of those who would like to see Islamic fundamentalism spead throughout the world.
A further factor is, we may no longer have the influance we used to over the world, but when something happens in the UK, it is still world news, publicity, of course being the life blood of terrorism.
Bali, Madrid. 2 places where there was no simliar relationship with the US, yet were tragets of terror attacks. Why? Similar reasons, there is a diseffected Muslim population able to be recruited.
Of course the Security Service, Police and therefore the Goverment, obviously have a great deal more information than has been reported in the papers. Given that, they are in a better position to assess the required security mesures than we are on here.
For instance, is this a shutting the door after a non event? Possibly it is. Then again, is it because there is inteligence that are other cells working on the same project as those arrested yesterday?
Even if there isn't inteligence, could it be that this is intended as a deterent, in case there are others intending to try?
Dealing with FL's point, inplying that it could be the UK's policies abroad and relationship with the US that makes us a traget. There may be some justification in that question being asked, if one only looks at it superficially. I would sugest that it may be a factor, but not the whole story.
The spread of Islamic fundamentalism is more likley to be the cause. The UK has a large number of Muslims, a number of who feel disillutioned with their lot. Some of those are ideal candidates for recruitment to the cause of those who would like to see Islamic fundamentalism spead throughout the world.
A further factor is, we may no longer have the influance we used to over the world, but when something happens in the UK, it is still world news, publicity, of course being the life blood of terrorism.
Bali, Madrid. 2 places where there was no simliar relationship with the US, yet were tragets of terror attacks. Why? Similar reasons, there is a diseffected Muslim population able to be recruited.
The Analog Kid
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Originally Posted by DISCOKID
And if your laptop is so precious perhaps you should leave it at home... i've travelled every week with mine shoved in the middle of my suitcase no problem.
I'm far from the only one in this position and, as one who travels a couple of times a month, one who is far from the most affected. Multiply it all up and that's a lot of money gone from an industry that has only just recovered from 9/11 and a lot of your jobs gone west.
This one is going to be revised very quickly, I believe.
Cheers,
Rich.
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Bjcc
Those comments are not correct, the Spanish Government, at that time, was a strong supporter of US action in Iraq. In fact it could be said that what happened in Madrid also had a direct result on the general elction in Spain shortly after.
What happened in Bali was, primaryly, aimed at Australian citizens. Australia also being a strong supporter of action in Iraq and elsewhere.
Bali, Madrid. 2 places where there was no simliar relationship with the US, yet were tragets of terror attacks. Why? Similar reasons, there is a diseffected Muslim population able to be recruited.
What happened in Bali was, primaryly, aimed at Australian citizens. Australia also being a strong supporter of action in Iraq and elsewhere.
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As a very frequent traveller on business "80/100 sectors per year", I would like to say that anartificialhorizon makes a very good point in saying The reason your lap top was in your case is because you probably don't need it for your work and therefore it's ok for it to be in your case....I would guess that 90% of business travellers would require or want access to their laptop and /or phone either in the lounge prior or on the flight itself............
This year, I reckon I will spend about 7-9 days (as in the whole 24 hours) airborne and another 7-9 days waiting in lounges. I work for at least 50% of that time and that is big bucks when translated into billing days.
Therefore anartificialhorizon expresses a concern that would focus my attention, were I in a career that depended on business travellers, as they are very conscious of the opportunity cost of everything that they do.
BTW Loose Rivets, although I think your post is excellent in most respects, the people I mix with are not confused about the screening of air crew.
There is a strong feeling that you guys should undergo the same screening as us, since we don't know who you are and neither do the security guys.
No one likes these procedures, but there should be one rule for all (including officials and police too)
This year, I reckon I will spend about 7-9 days (as in the whole 24 hours) airborne and another 7-9 days waiting in lounges. I work for at least 50% of that time and that is big bucks when translated into billing days.
Therefore anartificialhorizon expresses a concern that would focus my attention, were I in a career that depended on business travellers, as they are very conscious of the opportunity cost of everything that they do.
BTW Loose Rivets, although I think your post is excellent in most respects, the people I mix with are not confused about the screening of air crew.
There is a strong feeling that you guys should undergo the same screening as us, since we don't know who you are and neither do the security guys.
No one likes these procedures, but there should be one rule for all (including officials and police too)
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SXB
I'd agree, the Spanish Goverment was a Supproter (I wouldn't use the word strong) of the US.
However, even after the election, the attempts at attacks continued, even through the new Spannish Goverment was not as supportive of the US.
Bali. Yes, Australians were killed/injured. But were they the target? or was it just that hit the tourist areas, and you will cause death/injury to Austrailians, they being the majority of tourists there?
The fact remains that there is the ability to recruit in both Bali and Spain. Other Countries have a similar level of support for the US as Australia and Spain, but have not been attacked. Why? Is it because the world doesn't care that much? If no Aussies were killed in Barli, do you think it would have rated more than 2 lines in your morning paper for example?
I'd agree, the Spanish Goverment was a Supproter (I wouldn't use the word strong) of the US.
However, even after the election, the attempts at attacks continued, even through the new Spannish Goverment was not as supportive of the US.
Bali. Yes, Australians were killed/injured. But were they the target? or was it just that hit the tourist areas, and you will cause death/injury to Austrailians, they being the majority of tourists there?
The fact remains that there is the ability to recruit in both Bali and Spain. Other Countries have a similar level of support for the US as Australia and Spain, but have not been attacked. Why? Is it because the world doesn't care that much? If no Aussies were killed in Barli, do you think it would have rated more than 2 lines in your morning paper for example?
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Originally Posted by A330ismylittlebaby
Air travel is a luxory and we shouldn't moan about having security checks.
And we have every right to moan about security checks as if the braindead puppet that presides over the aptly named US (abley aided and abetted by the penis that runs Whitehall) had not spent his entire term of office stirring up every factious state in the Middle East then we'd not be in this postion.
So, luxury no. You need to get your head out of your arse and realise that it is a two way commercial transaction, and whilst SLF might piss you off at times they have every right to, if the service is not acceptable, which at the moment, for WHATEVER reason, it is not.
The bombing by muslims of the Atocha rail station in Madrid was also said to be connected with the islamic claims on Andalucia.
Remember this is the islamic tide we are dealing with here, as was Kosovo and as is Chechnya.
Remember this is the islamic tide we are dealing with here, as was Kosovo and as is Chechnya.
ex-Tanker
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Well Done
What a huge story this is... but not nearly as big as it would have been if these sad people had not been detected and stopped.
This really is one in the eye for Bin Laden and his merry men - thank God.
And all you can do is complain about increased security? Where is your sense of proportion?
It is WAR gentlemen and in a war some inconveniences have to be accepted. In the last big one, people slept in tube stations and still managed to sing.
What a namby pamby lot we have become - complain immediately and hope for sympathy - it is the modern Western attitude.
Hats off to the organisation which stopped these clowns - and is probably learning enough from them to decide what level of security to keep in force.
FC.
This really is one in the eye for Bin Laden and his merry men - thank God.
And all you can do is complain about increased security? Where is your sense of proportion?
It is WAR gentlemen and in a war some inconveniences have to be accepted. In the last big one, people slept in tube stations and still managed to sing.
What a namby pamby lot we have become - complain immediately and hope for sympathy - it is the modern Western attitude.
Hats off to the organisation which stopped these clowns - and is probably learning enough from them to decide what level of security to keep in force.
FC.
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In my opinion Islam has been given way to much air time in the UK since 9/11,and it continues,breakfast news progs full of Islamic talking heads mouthing the usual bollix we should change our foreign policy,we want Sharia law ect ect,since whe does just over 1% percent of the population just under 2 million relativly new arrivals dictate to the other 59 million.
There are many in the UK that do not agree with domestic and foreign policy,they are free to change it at elections.
As someone has already stated if they do not like the way we have arrived at doing things here after a history that stretches back before their prophet ever walked the earth they can buggah off to somewhere more to their liking.
There are many in the UK that do not agree with domestic and foreign policy,they are free to change it at elections.
As someone has already stated if they do not like the way we have arrived at doing things here after a history that stretches back before their prophet ever walked the earth they can buggah off to somewhere more to their liking.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
FINANCIAL SANCTIONS: TERRORIST FINANCING
This news release is issued in respect of the financial measures taken against terrorism. The Bank of England, as agent for Her Majesty’s Treasury, has today directed that any funds held for or on behalf of the individuals named in the Annex to this News Release must be frozen, and that no funds should be made available, directly or indirectly to any person, except under the authority of a licence...............
Individuals
1. ALI, Abdula, Ahmed, DOB: 10/10/1980
Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom
2. ALI, Cossor, DOB: 04/12/1982
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
3. ALI, Shazad, Khuram, DOB: 11/06/1979
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
4. HUSSAIN, Nabeel, DOB: 10/03/1984
Address: London, United Kingdom, E4
5. HUSSAIN, Tanvir, DOB: 21/02/1981
Address: Leyton, London, United Kingdom, E10
6. HUSSAIN, Umair, DOB: 09/10/1981
Address: London, United Kingdom, E14
7. ISLAM, Umar, DOB: 23/04/1978
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
8. KAYANI, Waseem, DOB: 28/04/1977
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
9. KHAN, Assan, Abdullah, DOB: 24/10/1984
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
10. KHAN, Waheed, Arafat, DOB: 18/05/1981
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
11. KHATIB, Osman, Adam, DOB: 07/12/1986
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
12. PATEL, Abdul, Muneem, DOB: 17/04/1989
Address: London, United Kingdom, E5
13. RAUF, Tayib, DOB: 26/04/1984
Address: Birmingham, United Kingdom
14. SADDIQUE, Muhammed, Usman, DOB: 23/04/1982
Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom, E17
15. SARWAR, Assad, DOB: 24/05/1980
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
16. SAVANT, Ibrahim, DOB: 19/12/1980
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
17. TARIQ, Amin, Asmin, DOB: 07/06/1983
Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom, E17
18. UDDIN, Shamin, Mohammed, DOB: 22/11/1970
Address: Stoke Newington, London, United Kingdom
19. ZAMAN, Waheed, DOB: 27/05/1984
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
This news release is issued in respect of the financial measures taken against terrorism. The Bank of England, as agent for Her Majesty’s Treasury, has today directed that any funds held for or on behalf of the individuals named in the Annex to this News Release must be frozen, and that no funds should be made available, directly or indirectly to any person, except under the authority of a licence...............
Individuals
1. ALI, Abdula, Ahmed, DOB: 10/10/1980
Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom
2. ALI, Cossor, DOB: 04/12/1982
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
3. ALI, Shazad, Khuram, DOB: 11/06/1979
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
4. HUSSAIN, Nabeel, DOB: 10/03/1984
Address: London, United Kingdom, E4
5. HUSSAIN, Tanvir, DOB: 21/02/1981
Address: Leyton, London, United Kingdom, E10
6. HUSSAIN, Umair, DOB: 09/10/1981
Address: London, United Kingdom, E14
7. ISLAM, Umar, DOB: 23/04/1978
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
8. KAYANI, Waseem, DOB: 28/04/1977
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
9. KHAN, Assan, Abdullah, DOB: 24/10/1984
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
10. KHAN, Waheed, Arafat, DOB: 18/05/1981
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
11. KHATIB, Osman, Adam, DOB: 07/12/1986
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
12. PATEL, Abdul, Muneem, DOB: 17/04/1989
Address: London, United Kingdom, E5
13. RAUF, Tayib, DOB: 26/04/1984
Address: Birmingham, United Kingdom
14. SADDIQUE, Muhammed, Usman, DOB: 23/04/1982
Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom, E17
15. SARWAR, Assad, DOB: 24/05/1980
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
16. SAVANT, Ibrahim, DOB: 19/12/1980
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
17. TARIQ, Amin, Asmin, DOB: 07/06/1983
Address: Walthamstow, London, United Kingdom, E17
18. UDDIN, Shamin, Mohammed, DOB: 22/11/1970
Address: Stoke Newington, London, United Kingdom
19. ZAMAN, Waheed, DOB: 27/05/1984
Address: London, United Kingdom, E17
Last edited by ORAC; 11th Aug 2006 at 08:36.
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What should be introduced is a new machine that could sniff out liquad explosives are somethis like that, a sniffer dog wouldn't be a half bad idea either but in the long term the machine would save money.
But the terrorists were very well planned if the Police weren't following this group either today are tomorrow there could have been a mass terror attack apparently a tape was found in one of the houses of a terrorist, I heard someone say on sky news that this had the prospect to be bigger then 9/11 and I can still remember that day as it casts a dark shadow in my mind I can still remember watching the news and then a planecrashing into the second tower.
But the terrorists were very well planned if the Police weren't following this group either today are tomorrow there could have been a mass terror attack apparently a tape was found in one of the houses of a terrorist, I heard someone say on sky news that this had the prospect to be bigger then 9/11 and I can still remember that day as it casts a dark shadow in my mind I can still remember watching the news and then a planecrashing into the second tower.
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Wise words Cloudy. I echo them.
For anybody who intends to desert air travel for the Euro star or other surface transport; if you think that way then it is most likely that criminal elements do too. I think these groups have shown they can turn anything into a 'spectacular' if they get the scale large enough.
This plot was stopped, there are others being planned and rehearsed. the only way to guarantee safety is keep security for all as tight as it can be and change procedures regularly and randomly to keep everybody on their toes.
Personally, if I were running a terrorist group now I would engineer a few false alarms, have a few houses raided where police will find nothing. That would be a sure way of causing the public to lose faith with security and intelligence and bring about a lowering of security standards. We need to be strong and put more thought into stopping these events than criminal do in perpetrating them.
For anybody who intends to desert air travel for the Euro star or other surface transport; if you think that way then it is most likely that criminal elements do too. I think these groups have shown they can turn anything into a 'spectacular' if they get the scale large enough.
This plot was stopped, there are others being planned and rehearsed. the only way to guarantee safety is keep security for all as tight as it can be and change procedures regularly and randomly to keep everybody on their toes.
Personally, if I were running a terrorist group now I would engineer a few false alarms, have a few houses raided where police will find nothing. That would be a sure way of causing the public to lose faith with security and intelligence and bring about a lowering of security standards. We need to be strong and put more thought into stopping these events than criminal do in perpetrating them.
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Originally Posted by jimma
I would just like to add my support to the police and security services for stopping these people. Well done folks!!
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I am a copper, and get trusted with fast cars and guns. Wherever possible I sit in an aisle seat in rows one and two - just in case.
It is about time there was a huge rethink about air travel security, as the way it has just had bits hung on it since 9/11 has made it unwieldy, unfriendly, expensive and in some respects unworkable
It is about time there was a huge rethink about air travel security, as the way it has just had bits hung on it since 9/11 has made it unwieldy, unfriendly, expensive and in some respects unworkable
The Analog Kid
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Originally Posted by issi noho
Wise words Cloudy. I echo them.
For anybody who intends to desert air travel for the Euro star or other surface transport; if you think that way then it is most likely that criminal elements do too.
For anybody who intends to desert air travel for the Euro star or other surface transport; if you think that way then it is most likely that criminal elements do too.
1. I'm not scared
2. I'm in business
3. I have legal obligations of care
4. Time is money
5. There are quite a few million of me, many of whom fly far more often
6. This will cost airlines money and aviation professionals their jobs
Cheers,
Rich.
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so you can go through security ,buy duty free booze, electronic goods in duty free and then get on a flight from the uk airports taking these items into the cabin.
i have read through the government guidance and don't see any wording to prevent this. The gov't statement refers only to hand baggage going through security, not duty free goods purchased airside.
Perhaps an extra five minutes thought by ministers may have cleared up this confussion - can anyone shed any light on the above statement. Please!!
i have read through the government guidance and don't see any wording to prevent this. The gov't statement refers only to hand baggage going through security, not duty free goods purchased airside.
Perhaps an extra five minutes thought by ministers may have cleared up this confussion - can anyone shed any light on the above statement. Please!!
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“Personally, if I were running a terrorist group now I would engineer a few false alarms, have a few houses raided where police will find nothing. That would be a sure way of causing the public to lose faith with security and intelligence and bring about a lowering of security standards.”
My biggest worry, which has been the case for years now, is that statistically EVERY SINGLE FLIGHT I TAKE will be affected by these fools at the airport, who consistently fail to act in the correct manner. Does anybody feel safer that pax are to be deprived of a book to read, and that granny’s Oil of Olay is safely in the hold? You guys want to get organised and publicly protest the headless chicken activity that currently pervades UK airports. Typing away on pPrune won’t get the job done. In all my many years with many causes, it’s been NVDA that worked in the end, not prose.