Leg Room
So Dogs_ears_up,
What would you do when you have a passenger so tall that he can't sit in the seat? Do you throw him off the 'plane? If so, how do you handle the resulting legal claim because it's more than likely there's nothing in the conditions of carriage about people being more than a certain size not being carried - and if there was, it would quite likely get heavily hit in a discrimination law suit?
It seems to be one of those cases where npobody is likely to win except a lawyer.
What would you do when you have a passenger so tall that he can't sit in the seat? Do you throw him off the 'plane? If so, how do you handle the resulting legal claim because it's more than likely there's nothing in the conditions of carriage about people being more than a certain size not being carried - and if there was, it would quite likely get heavily hit in a discrimination law suit?
It seems to be one of those cases where npobody is likely to win except a lawyer.
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Preselect exit row seat as elite traveller on AA
Hi,
AA allows all frequent-flying customers (Gold, Platinum, Executive Platinum status) to exclusively preselect an exit row seat when they book their ticket online. As a normal (non-frequent-flyer-status) passenger, you don't get that privilege. Ever since I have achieved AA's frequent flyer status, I have been travelling in exit row seats without a single exception.
AA allows all frequent-flying customers (Gold, Platinum, Executive Platinum status) to exclusively preselect an exit row seat when they book their ticket online. As a normal (non-frequent-flyer-status) passenger, you don't get that privilege. Ever since I have achieved AA's frequent flyer status, I have been travelling in exit row seats without a single exception.
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I think people do not understand exactly what it's like to be tall when it comes to passenger aircraft seating - it is seriously, seriously difficult with certain airlines. Believe me, you know what you're getting into, and you'll put up with most things.
I love flying, but I have limits to what I will tolerate. At 6'3", I understand that I will not enjoy the comfort a shorter person might experience. When travelling to Malaga recently, I encountered for the first time Britannia's high density seating. That's a 28-inch pitch. My knees were pushed firmly into the armrest hinges of the seat in front, and my buttocks were planted well into the fold of the seat. I could not move - where the seating structure flexed, I felt it through my knees. When the child in front shifted his weight, I felt it through my knees. It was a two hour flight, and I was never so pleased to get off an aircraft.
A recent flight on a BMI Fokker 100 provided the most legroom I've ever experienced in my life. Pure bliss. I understand the airlines need to survive, but please be reasonable.
I love flying, but I have limits to what I will tolerate. At 6'3", I understand that I will not enjoy the comfort a shorter person might experience. When travelling to Malaga recently, I encountered for the first time Britannia's high density seating. That's a 28-inch pitch. My knees were pushed firmly into the armrest hinges of the seat in front, and my buttocks were planted well into the fold of the seat. I could not move - where the seating structure flexed, I felt it through my knees. When the child in front shifted his weight, I felt it through my knees. It was a two hour flight, and I was never so pleased to get off an aircraft.
A recent flight on a BMI Fokker 100 provided the most legroom I've ever experienced in my life. Pure bliss. I understand the airlines need to survive, but please be reasonable.
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Its really easy to go in circles regarding legroom, but the solutions really are not that simple. It's often the case that you can't pay a bit more for extra legroom.
Let me give you an example, with flights to the Canary Islands. Most of the flights are charter operated, as you may expect. Now of course many of them let you pre-book extra legroom seating, but not all. This is the problem, there is a chance, that no matter how early I check in, I might not get an extra legroom seat, and have the problems already highlighted by others.
As I understand it, Britannia offer extra legroom, but they have recently 'moved the goalposts'. The extra legroom seats are now no longer called extra legroom seats, they are now called 'extra' seats - the difference is in the small print. According to the airline, extra seats provide more legroom by being at an exit row or just more SPACE by being behind a bulkhead, and having no seat in front. This is a significant difference, as someone tall may book an extra seat, only to find that they don't actually get EXTRA legroom.
And before anybody says 'well you get what you pay for' You don't really have the choice to pay more, unless you charter a private jet. I would happily pay more to have extra legroom, but the choice is often just not available at any price
On the upside another charter airline - first choice airlines(Air 2000) have announced that on long haul flights next year, the standard seat pitch will be 33" and premium pitch will be 36". That standard pitch is pretty awesome for a charter. They will get my business.
As regards scheduled airlines, the seat pitch really does vary a great deal which makes many of the cost arguments look just a touch silly (if cost were the main factor, every airline would have the legal minimum seat pitch,but they don't - some economy is 29", yet some is 34"). So clearly cost is NOT the only determining factor.
It is very easy to say tall people should go business class, but that is really quite a silly argument. The difficulty with most of the scheduled premium economy products right now, is that they do not offer what tall people need. Sure, they give extra legroom, and that alone would not be too expensive, but most airlines seem to view this cabin as a kind of half Business class, so you get better meals, and so on, which all make it expensive.
I really wish airlines would just offer some seats with more legroom and nothing else, and that would make life easier for tall people, but at not too great a cost.
As a tall person, I chuckle when I hear airlines say at the start of the safety breifing that 'your safety is our main concern', as this just is not the case, when I and others sit with knees pressed into the seat in front, and could not get into a crash position.
People are getting taller, and yet the minimum seat pitch in the uk has not changed one jot for decades- which is pretty bizarre.
Several good airlines I have found are BMI (on the airbuses), flybe (in the Q400's- which are really spacious inside for a small aircraft), American (but it seems that will change).
Finally, to those in the airline business who don't take legroom seriously, there have been many times in the past when I have had the money to fly to the USA, and have decided not to bother, as I could not get any kind of guarantee of what the seat pitch will be. Try making a booking and you'll soon find that almost without exception, scheduled airline reservation agents and travel agents will not know what the seat pitch is. In addition, in some travel agents, when you ask about extra legroom seats on a charter flight they invariably say "oh can you do that??" or even worse "you can't do that, but the seats are usually ok, you know". Yes, ok for a smurf.
Let me give you an example, with flights to the Canary Islands. Most of the flights are charter operated, as you may expect. Now of course many of them let you pre-book extra legroom seating, but not all. This is the problem, there is a chance, that no matter how early I check in, I might not get an extra legroom seat, and have the problems already highlighted by others.
As I understand it, Britannia offer extra legroom, but they have recently 'moved the goalposts'. The extra legroom seats are now no longer called extra legroom seats, they are now called 'extra' seats - the difference is in the small print. According to the airline, extra seats provide more legroom by being at an exit row or just more SPACE by being behind a bulkhead, and having no seat in front. This is a significant difference, as someone tall may book an extra seat, only to find that they don't actually get EXTRA legroom.
And before anybody says 'well you get what you pay for' You don't really have the choice to pay more, unless you charter a private jet. I would happily pay more to have extra legroom, but the choice is often just not available at any price
On the upside another charter airline - first choice airlines(Air 2000) have announced that on long haul flights next year, the standard seat pitch will be 33" and premium pitch will be 36". That standard pitch is pretty awesome for a charter. They will get my business.
As regards scheduled airlines, the seat pitch really does vary a great deal which makes many of the cost arguments look just a touch silly (if cost were the main factor, every airline would have the legal minimum seat pitch,but they don't - some economy is 29", yet some is 34"). So clearly cost is NOT the only determining factor.
It is very easy to say tall people should go business class, but that is really quite a silly argument. The difficulty with most of the scheduled premium economy products right now, is that they do not offer what tall people need. Sure, they give extra legroom, and that alone would not be too expensive, but most airlines seem to view this cabin as a kind of half Business class, so you get better meals, and so on, which all make it expensive.
I really wish airlines would just offer some seats with more legroom and nothing else, and that would make life easier for tall people, but at not too great a cost.
As a tall person, I chuckle when I hear airlines say at the start of the safety breifing that 'your safety is our main concern', as this just is not the case, when I and others sit with knees pressed into the seat in front, and could not get into a crash position.
People are getting taller, and yet the minimum seat pitch in the uk has not changed one jot for decades- which is pretty bizarre.
Several good airlines I have found are BMI (on the airbuses), flybe (in the Q400's- which are really spacious inside for a small aircraft), American (but it seems that will change).
Finally, to those in the airline business who don't take legroom seriously, there have been many times in the past when I have had the money to fly to the USA, and have decided not to bother, as I could not get any kind of guarantee of what the seat pitch will be. Try making a booking and you'll soon find that almost without exception, scheduled airline reservation agents and travel agents will not know what the seat pitch is. In addition, in some travel agents, when you ask about extra legroom seats on a charter flight they invariably say "oh can you do that??" or even worse "you can't do that, but the seats are usually ok, you know". Yes, ok for a smurf.
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Economy class also sucks for people who are of average height. The people I really feel sorry for are those with conditions like bad arthritis, they must have a miserable time on long haul, never seem to hear them complain though. Plenty of options for those who are taller than average.
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The primary point remains, surely...
A majority of customers are not over 6'1", nor are they over 100kgs. Like it or not, in an environment where space and weight are finite and a source of revenue, hard commercial decisions have to be made - to do otherwise would be business suicide. Presumably, this is in part why AA are withdrawing their seat pitch USP - because it did not generate as much revenue as the alternative(s).
Customers who are too large to fit in one passenger seat are required to purchase an additional seat ( see Southwest's excellent explanation here). The logic for this policy seems inescapable, although I'm sure somebody will disagree
. The same logic must apply to height, just as to mass/volume.
At 5'11½" I am fractionally above average height - at 28" seat pitch, I'm not comfortable, but the discomfort is at an acceptable level, proportionate to the fair paid. There are customers who are larger, but still physically fit in the seats: These customers must make their own value judgements, and opt to spend more or less discretionary income on comfort, as they see fit. There are a numerically minute number of customers who cannot pysically fit in our seats: These customers usually contact the airline in advance and ask for assistance, which is happily provided whenever possible, also, whenever possible, FOC. There is also a sub-group of these customers who make no effort to pre-arrange assistance, but just arrive and then create unpleasantness for everybody around when their unreasonable demands are not met with the promptness and obsequity that they require.
A majority of customers are not over 6'1", nor are they over 100kgs. Like it or not, in an environment where space and weight are finite and a source of revenue, hard commercial decisions have to be made - to do otherwise would be business suicide. Presumably, this is in part why AA are withdrawing their seat pitch USP - because it did not generate as much revenue as the alternative(s).
Customers who are too large to fit in one passenger seat are required to purchase an additional seat ( see Southwest's excellent explanation here). The logic for this policy seems inescapable, although I'm sure somebody will disagree
. The same logic must apply to height, just as to mass/volume.At 5'11½" I am fractionally above average height - at 28" seat pitch, I'm not comfortable, but the discomfort is at an acceptable level, proportionate to the fair paid. There are customers who are larger, but still physically fit in the seats: These customers must make their own value judgements, and opt to spend more or less discretionary income on comfort, as they see fit. There are a numerically minute number of customers who cannot pysically fit in our seats: These customers usually contact the airline in advance and ask for assistance, which is happily provided whenever possible, also, whenever possible, FOC. There is also a sub-group of these customers who make no effort to pre-arrange assistance, but just arrive and then create unpleasantness for everybody around when their unreasonable demands are not met with the promptness and obsequity that they require.
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Yep, Southwest get it right again, you don't get to encroach on somebody elses seat space, pay extra for your own space.
So in the same vein, my seat is designed to recline and so the space behind me that it reclines into has been allocated to me for the duration of the flight. If you are sitting behind me and have long thigh bones you should purchase the seat next to you and extend your legs into the legroom there. Having an empty seat next to you is a very effective way of improving comfort in economy class and not as expensive as a business class seat. You have many options.
So in the same vein, my seat is designed to recline and so the space behind me that it reclines into has been allocated to me for the duration of the flight. If you are sitting behind me and have long thigh bones you should purchase the seat next to you and extend your legs into the legroom there. Having an empty seat next to you is a very effective way of improving comfort in economy class and not as expensive as a business class seat. You have many options.
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Dear Slim Slag
If you are sitting in front of me, then you will encounter this device....
http://www.kneedefender.com/index.html
I have a right to be able to use my laptop just as much as you have a right to recline.
Have a good flight.
Now why don't you grow up and take a reasonable view, instead of spouting polemic?
If you are sitting in front of me, then you will encounter this device....
http://www.kneedefender.com/index.html
I have a right to be able to use my laptop just as much as you have a right to recline.
Have a good flight.
Now why don't you grow up and take a reasonable view, instead of spouting polemic?
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Great word F3G, I had to look that one up 
Nobody has rights in economy class, it's war I tell you. Put your laptop on your knees and lets hope airport security put those nasty bits of plastic to the forbidden list.
And I think you will find a lot of people will actually agree with me
Nobody has rights in economy class, it's war I tell you. Put your laptop on your knees and lets hope airport security put those nasty bits of plastic to the forbidden list.
And I think you will find a lot of people will actually agree with me
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Still people here are in the mistaken belief that lost of 'options' exist for tall passengers, and it just is not true.
For instance, buying an adjacent seat in some airlines is a completely pointless exercise, as the seats are fitted with non movable arm rests, so a leg cannot be stretched over to the adjacent seat even if this is empty. Even if there are movable armrests, they must be down for takeoff/landing - so again an impossibility. I have actually been on an aircraft where I had my leg out to the side, and my knee was in front of the seat back in front - a crazy situation.
In the case of aisle seats, I would suggest YOU try sticking your legs out into the aisle on a flight. Firstly, you will get passengers passing by banging you and also tripping on your feet. The tripping happens much more often than is easy to believe- never understood why. You will also get cabin crew wheeling trolleys into your knee (I have experienced this many many times with no apology or excuse me). Finally, similarly to above. an aisle seat is next to useless in this respect if it has fixed rigid arm rests, as is seen on Easy jet aircraft, and a lot of charters.
For the average punter, business class is just way too expensive (and extravagant) and premiumn economy on some airlines is also too expensive, as it includes lots of unnecessary extras.
Like I said before, I do not mind having to pay more for extra legroom, but why can't I have it without all the fancy extras etc.. which unnecessarily add to the cost.
And for the record, for those people who suggest booking an adjacent seat - just try doing it for your next holiday with lizzie drip serving you in the travel agents. It is a process akin to pulling teeth.
The real truth is that some of these 'options' for tall people are invariably not available or are impossible due to the type of seating.
It is easy to be glib about this, if you are not tall, but the reality is actually a bit of a nightmare.
Incidentally, legroom needs for a given passenger are not only related to the persons height, as some regular height people can have very long femurs (thigh bones). You do not have to be extremely tall in height to suffer in this respect. This is in fact the case with myself. My femurs are very long for someone of 6'2". This is also true especially for women, as for a given height, they tend to have longer femurs than men.
On a final point I have no problem paying extra for more legroom, but this really is rarely available on its own and often is too expensive due to all the flashy unnecessary extras that come with it. Just try doing it, and you'll soon find how difficult it is.
For instance, buying an adjacent seat in some airlines is a completely pointless exercise, as the seats are fitted with non movable arm rests, so a leg cannot be stretched over to the adjacent seat even if this is empty. Even if there are movable armrests, they must be down for takeoff/landing - so again an impossibility. I have actually been on an aircraft where I had my leg out to the side, and my knee was in front of the seat back in front - a crazy situation.
In the case of aisle seats, I would suggest YOU try sticking your legs out into the aisle on a flight. Firstly, you will get passengers passing by banging you and also tripping on your feet. The tripping happens much more often than is easy to believe- never understood why. You will also get cabin crew wheeling trolleys into your knee (I have experienced this many many times with no apology or excuse me). Finally, similarly to above. an aisle seat is next to useless in this respect if it has fixed rigid arm rests, as is seen on Easy jet aircraft, and a lot of charters.
For the average punter, business class is just way too expensive (and extravagant) and premiumn economy on some airlines is also too expensive, as it includes lots of unnecessary extras.
Like I said before, I do not mind having to pay more for extra legroom, but why can't I have it without all the fancy extras etc.. which unnecessarily add to the cost.
And for the record, for those people who suggest booking an adjacent seat - just try doing it for your next holiday with lizzie drip serving you in the travel agents. It is a process akin to pulling teeth.
The real truth is that some of these 'options' for tall people are invariably not available or are impossible due to the type of seating.
It is easy to be glib about this, if you are not tall, but the reality is actually a bit of a nightmare.
Incidentally, legroom needs for a given passenger are not only related to the persons height, as some regular height people can have very long femurs (thigh bones). You do not have to be extremely tall in height to suffer in this respect. This is in fact the case with myself. My femurs are very long for someone of 6'2". This is also true especially for women, as for a given height, they tend to have longer femurs than men.
On a final point I have no problem paying extra for more legroom, but this really is rarely available on its own and often is too expensive due to all the flashy unnecessary extras that come with it. Just try doing it, and you'll soon find how difficult it is.
Paxing All Over The World
For the average punter, business class is just way too expensive (and extravagant) and premiumn economy on some airlines is also too expensive, as it includes lots of unnecessary extras.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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At 6' 1'' a am taller than the average but not excessively tall. I find some cattle class seating uncomfortable.
I often fly Thai because even though they are not the cheapest, and do not offer personal IFE they do offer 34" seats and flights have been full. I have not had occasion to visit the US recently but would have chosen AA if I did for the same reason. However this option is not always available. Moreover the airlines themselves often do not make this information readily avalable.
I appreciate that a sizeable (in number) part of the population are happy with 'normal' pitch seats and a part of the population would be happy with smaller seats.
I agree with others who say that they are willing to pay a little more to accomodate their larger than average height selfs, but who, buying their own ticket, cannot justify Business or Premium economy.
On a large aircraft such as A330, B747 or B777, could there not be Economy S, Economy M and Economy L, with, if 31" were standard, then a few rows of 28" and a similar number of 34" rows of seats. Fares could be either 10% cheaper or more expensive based upon real fares.
I often fly Thai because even though they are not the cheapest, and do not offer personal IFE they do offer 34" seats and flights have been full. I have not had occasion to visit the US recently but would have chosen AA if I did for the same reason. However this option is not always available. Moreover the airlines themselves often do not make this information readily avalable.
I appreciate that a sizeable (in number) part of the population are happy with 'normal' pitch seats and a part of the population would be happy with smaller seats.
I agree with others who say that they are willing to pay a little more to accomodate their larger than average height selfs, but who, buying their own ticket, cannot justify Business or Premium economy.
On a large aircraft such as A330, B747 or B777, could there not be Economy S, Economy M and Economy L, with, if 31" were standard, then a few rows of 28" and a similar number of 34" rows of seats. Fares could be either 10% cheaper or more expensive based upon real fares.
Last edited by ManAtTheBack; 6th Dec 2004 at 17:10.
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looking at it from another point of view, a midgets legs are so short they have to put there legs out straight on the seat,thus resulting in their feet pushing up against the seat in front
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ManAtTheBack:
See Maersk Air (Denmark). Although they don't do long-haul (and I don't know how well their low-cost incarnation is doing), they do offer the different legroom options you suggest.
C.
See Maersk Air (Denmark). Although they don't do long-haul (and I don't know how well their low-cost incarnation is doing), they do offer the different legroom options you suggest.
C.
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Cyrano
Thanks for pointing that out. I have no plans to visit Denmark in the near future but would consider them if I did. I wish Maersk luck but fear that short haul is not the idealplace to try such an experiment.
Generally, a large number of airlines offer extensive IFE, which is both expensive to install and maintain, and imposes a weight penalty on the aircraft. However, only a few seem interested in giving a little extra room, even at a reasonable supplement.
On the question of economics, and AA's withdrawal of More room in coach an extra 10% legroom would not cost the airline anything on flights with less that 90% load factor, which would be a large number of them. At peak times some revenue would be lost but this could be the deep discount fares (admittedly higher than off-peak times) so I would not think that 10% extra space would reduce revenue by 10%.
Finally, airlines might like to recognise that people who are treated well when they spend their own money often choose the same airline when others are paying. On a recent domestic trip I was offered, without prompting, an emergency exit seat at check-in. I will bear this in mind next time it comes to choosing to spending my employers (business class) money between competing airlines.
Thanks for pointing that out. I have no plans to visit Denmark in the near future but would consider them if I did. I wish Maersk luck but fear that short haul is not the idealplace to try such an experiment.
Generally, a large number of airlines offer extensive IFE, which is both expensive to install and maintain, and imposes a weight penalty on the aircraft. However, only a few seem interested in giving a little extra room, even at a reasonable supplement.
On the question of economics, and AA's withdrawal of More room in coach an extra 10% legroom would not cost the airline anything on flights with less that 90% load factor, which would be a large number of them. At peak times some revenue would be lost but this could be the deep discount fares (admittedly higher than off-peak times) so I would not think that 10% extra space would reduce revenue by 10%.
Finally, airlines might like to recognise that people who are treated well when they spend their own money often choose the same airline when others are paying. On a recent domestic trip I was offered, without prompting, an emergency exit seat at check-in. I will bear this in mind next time it comes to choosing to spending my employers (business class) money between competing airlines.
Last edited by ManAtTheBack; 6th Dec 2004 at 17:49.
Paxing All Over The World
MATB: I agree with you but you do sound as if you are trying to think this through in a logical and consistent manner. Have you met any folks from airline management recently???
The IFE has become a major field of competition. It is easy to market, as it has snazzy images and so forth. Also, have you any idea how good it is as keeping children quiet??!! That makes it a big sell to parents. The fact that the same weight could space out seats or carry mist air/water fire and smoke damping equipment is not relevant. Go to the bottom of the class
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
The IFE has become a major field of competition. It is easy to market, as it has snazzy images and so forth. Also, have you any idea how good it is as keeping children quiet??!! That makes it a big sell to parents. The fact that the same weight could space out seats or carry mist air/water fire and smoke damping equipment is not relevant. Go to the bottom of the class
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
