Ryanair stop 89 year old travelling to Wedding

[jonathang]

And we then all saw the edifying scene of this young, fit, twenty-something gate agent giving a bollocking to an old lady with arthritic hands because she had not presented the passport to him fully opened.

That is really quite sickening. Hope he got shot down for that. Definitely not a representation of the majority of gate staff.

In Stansted Life there is a story about an 89 year old who was denied boarding from a RYR flight because she didn't have a passport or photo-licence. She turned up at check-in with a birth certificate and photo bus pass. The reason for the trip was to go to her great-niece's wedding.

Horrible story, while I agree with Ryanair on this one based on their terms and conditions. If she was travelling within the UK I personally would have bent the rules and allowed her to travel on a bus pass etc.

Spirit of the rules should be taken into account with all decisions.

Also it’s not Ryanair that made the decision to refuse her, ground handling agent did.

Question is where was she travelling too?

Airlines are subject to fines up to 3000 pounds for passengers who arrive in foreign counties without a passport or national identity card which ever is required.

Maybe FR only allow a limited number of ID types because it'd become too confusing otherwise for the check-in agent.

That is exactly what I was told. On a budget airline with 189 passengers traveling, Check-in opens -2 hours and closes at -40 minutes. That’s 1 hour 20 minutes to check-in 189 passengers between 2 or 3 people. Every minute saved counts. That's just under 1 minute a passenger.

How is that FR wont accept an official aircrew ID (with all the security checks, history etc,etc,etc) as phot ID when positioning with them, yet they will accept a scruffy peice of student union ID paper as valid ID. When I was a student,

They don't except any Student ID if you are talking about Student Matric Cards. Ryanair only accept the ISAC (International Student Association Card). Only FR crew ID’s are accepted for travel. How do you know an airport ID is still valid, employee could have just kept it? A passport is only valid when in date.

Remember,We are talking about the same airline that refused passage to a Soldier when he showed his military I.D. card because it was not on their "Approved" list!

Yep, I have refused an Army Officer travel on a F1250 Military ID. I am sorry but if you are in that position you should be able to read A the terms and conditions and B the the ID information which is stated clearly when booking.

Assumption is the mother......

Oh and I have a F1250.

Jonathan

[MarkD]

What TwinAisle said. It bugs me that there seems to be a get out of trouble free card if you're old. The more companies that provide equal treatment the more they will get their act together.

That's not rudeness, merely parity with other customers.

[jonathang]

There is also the argument that an eldelry woman not from the generation of the Internet etc should be given some flexability if it allows.

FR are right. Handling agent in this case just made a bad call if it's UK domestic.

In my opinion.

Jonathan

[matkat]

Jonathan,that is precisely what is wrong with this system,you refused travel to someone with a government issued ID card for which gives him access to some of the most secure areas in this country but not to an FR flight!The thing is You are not trusted with any discretion and this has instilled a "More than my jobs worth" syndrome,it is not Your fault but is most certainly FRs systems fault.Please don"t harp on about safety etc we all realise the need for it but there should be some leeway or else the system become discredited,I think (but not sure)that FR now accept military F1250s is this true? and if they do,do You not think that the system must be an ass for refusing them in the first place just because someone forgot to put them on the FR list of approved ID.After all it now appears that student IDs are not acceptable when previously they were.

[Skylion]

Twin Aisle: Its not the rule itself but what it is meant to achieve thats important. Would security have been jeopardised by carrying her ? ( Dont forget that the definition of ID in this case is a company , not legal one). Someone should have used their brain here,- a a customer service person, not a prison warder.

[Crepello]

Ah yes, because everyone knows better than those who make the rules...

There is also the argument that an eldelry woman not from the generation of the Internet etc should be given some flexability if it allows.

Is there? Please state that argument.

Its not the rule itself but what it is meant to achieve thats important

The rules seek to prevent unauthorised access to an aircraft. They prohibit incompetent (in the legal sense) staff from making exceptions. If a rule is bent, the system is compromised.

Some local contractors recently worked within "the spirit of" the rules, rather than following them to the letter. No doubt they knew better. As a result, one of them lost his life. The circumstances were different but the issues are the same.

[Koyo]

I got to ask who should of alerted the old lady in regard of documents required. Usually, it would be the individual's responsiblty to look up the rules. However, in the case of an elderly person, shouldn't her relatives and/or booking agent be letting her know that a passport is required? Please don't blame the airline for enforcing rules. If they start benting them, they could face problems from the authorities. Also, why should anyone risk losing their job by benting the rules? Benting or breaking company policy is just cause for termination. Just because it seem to be the right thing to do doesn't mean it always have a good result.

[jonathang]

matkat : Jonathan, that is precisely what is wrong with this system,you refused travel to someone with a government issued ID card for which gives him access to some of the most secure areas in this country but not to an FR flight!The thing is You are not trusted with any discretion and this has instilled a "More than my jobs worth" syndrome,it is not Your fault but is most certainly FRs systems fault.Please don"t harp on about safety etc we all realise the need for it but there should be some leeway or else the system become discredited,I think (but not sure)that FR now accept military F1250s is this true? and if they do,do You not think that the system must be an ass for refusing them in the first place just because someone forgot to put them on the FR list of approved ID.After all it now appears that student IDs are not acceptable when previously they were.

Yes, I refused travel to someone with a Government issued ID. I not only made that decision on the grounds it is FR procedure but I also agree with it.

The gentleman in question had the capability and should have planned ahead and checked what was required.

I would not assume I can travel on my F1250 when travelling with other airlines.

Also this would be unacceptable ID to enter another country. FR has decided to accept 4 forms of ID so when training check-in staff they can quickly process people without the need for further consultation. If they allowed MIL F1250 ID for travel on Internal UK flights and not on International flights mistakes would happen which would cost the company thousands.

Bottom line I stand by FR on this one.

Just for the argument a military base would not allow you access using a passport just because you misplaced your F1250.

Also as previously states Ryanair don't accept student ID's in the matric sense only the ISAC cards.

And no Ryanair still do not accept F1250 for travel.

Crepello : The rules seek to prevent unauthorised access to an aircraft. They prohibit incompetent (in the legal sense) staff from making exceptions. If a rule is bent, the system is compromised.

The 4 forms of ID for a UK domestic flight are not designed solely for the prevention of unauthorised persons getting access to the aircraft. A form of ID is required to confirm the booking matches the person travelling. As I stated before these 4 forms are enforced by Ryanair to simplify and speed up the check-in process in a general sense. The legal requirement for a UK domestic flight does not require only these 4 forms of ID.

There is a distinction between LEGAL requirements here and CARRIER requirements

For example carrier's such as bmibaby accept all forms of ID.

I standby Ryanair's decision to enforce the 4 forms of ID in the general sense so that the system is efficient. However in this case bending the carrier's rules within the law is acceptable in my eyes.

I personally think every situation has to be taken on its own merits.

I always try to put myself in the shoes of the passenger.

If that was my grandmother standing there. Missing the wedding, what do I do to get there now? son never told me I needed a passport. How do I afford the 180 pounds one way ticket tommorow from my pension?

If that was me standing there not bothered to check the terms and conditions and turned up without the correct ID what would I expect and accept. I would know it was my own stupid fault for being too lazy to bother reading the website while booking. I would expect to be refused travel.

Ryanair Website T&C: Expired forms of photo-ID will not be accepted for any flight. Failure to present valid photo-ID matching the names on your reservation will result in your being refused check-in without refund.

[FairPayer]

Could it not just simply be that Ryanair narrow down the list of acceptable ID's so that their staff can comfortably and confidently recognise and validate authentic ID's from forgeries?

If you allow all sorts of quasi official ID's whether military ID, company ID, student ID, old out of date driving licences, bank books, pension books etc then you open the door to all sorts of abuse. Can we really expect checkin or gate staff to be able to positvely identify these little used ID's as valid? Its all downside if they get it wrong and no significant upside if they allow their use as I can't see there being much of a "no passport, no drivers licence, no Government ID" market niche. Better to have a couple of hundred sad stories each year than one terrorist getting onboard a flight using some obscure form of ID.

If this old lady is fiercely independent and actually booked the flight herself on the internet or over the phone and made her own way to the airport then I both admire her and feel sorry for her because she didn't read the terms and conditions. If on the other hand someone in her family made the arrangements and either didn't bother to check out the terms and conditions or thought the checkin staff would turn a blind eye to the passanger identity rules in this day and age because she is an old lady then I'd lay all the blame at the feet of the person who arranged the trip for her, they didn't take good care of her and shame on them not Ryanair.

[jonathang]

Could it not just simply be that Ryanair narrow down the list of acceptable ID's so that their staff can comfortably and confidently recognise and validate authentic ID's from forgeries?

Yes, agreed easier to validate 4 types. Basically what has already been said.

[nibor]

There seem to be a lot of people missing the point on this one.

1. The airline has produced the regulations regarding what types of I.D. are acceptable.

2. The wording is clear and simple. No acceptable I.D. - no travel. There is no room for misinterpretation.

3. The handling agent works for the airline and as part of their contract they have to follow the airlines procedures and regulations.

4. It does not matter what other airlines rules are or what exceptions they make. We are talking about Ryanair not Easyjet.

I think that the check-in staff involved did exactly right.


As for anyone who thinks that company or airport issued I.D. cards or even Police warrant cards are difficult to fake think about this.
The printers and software that produce I.D. cards are not controlled items. For a couple of hundred pounds anyone can produce exact copies of credit card sized I.D. and have any name or photograph they want on them. The only real security features of these cards are contained on the magnetic strip on the back of the card, so unless all check-in desks are fitted with card readers and are connected to a computer that knows the correct codes for each person and issuing authority, there is absolutely no way that this form of I.D. can be verified.

Passports may not be impossible to forge but at least you can't buy the paper at W.H. Smiths.

[jonathang]

The wording is clear and simple. No acceptable I.D. - no travel. There is no room for misinterpretation.

That’s the carrier's policy correct.

As the handling agent airlines often give power to make decisions on their behalf within legal regulation within good customer service grounds.

In this case I still stand by the decision on a UK domestic flight she should have been allowed travel.

[normal_nigel]

Jetteson

You need to get out more and join the real world.

NN

normal_nigel Post facts, or your views, or indeed anything that moves the discussion forward. Simply posting abuse of others achieves nothing and is therefore not acceptable.

If you need spicier conversation then you may find Jet Blast is a more suitable forum for your talents. For example there is an interesting thread running there at the moment about the poor standard of moderating on PPrune: It makes fascinating reading and is available via this link

[Farrell]

Just to add - is Ryanair subject to the same regulations as international carriers?

For example, I read just a moment ago about a number of airlines who have been banned from flying into the UK for:

Non payment of Carriers Liability Act fines for transporting inadequately documented passengers.

Maybe this is a totally different ballgame, but I thought I'd mention it.

Wayne

[BEagle]

I'm no fan of the way Mo'L behaves, but one thing that is abundantly clear is that RyanAir posts clear, simple terms. "Be at the check in between -2:00 and -0:45 and ensure that you have one of the following (etc) documents to identify yourself. No exceptions will be made".

Entirely reasonable for lo-co operations, in my view.

[MerchantVenturer]

nibor

I think I was the one who mentioned easyJet first in this thread.

I don't think it is a question of missing the point about Ryanair. Their conditions of travel are clearly laid out and must be followed if a pax does not want to be prevented from flying.

But my point is why are they so restrictive? Others have suggested that fewer types of id make it easier for gate staff to spot phonies - possibly.

As things stand any UK citizen who does not hold a passport or photo driving licence cannot fly on a Ryanair internal flight. This prevents some older people especially (the most likely to be in this category) from travelling with this airline within the UK.

In my personal experience I have found recently that at least one airline requires no proof of identity at check-in and another loco (easyJet) is far more flexible in what it will accept as id. Is it therefore surprising that some travellers are confused?

It may be that Ryanair has it right and everyone else should copy them. Equally, easyJet's policy might be the way to go.

Why cannot the airlines get together and adopt a common policy, through the good offices of the CAA or even the government if necessary? After all, we are talking about security and is it right to leave such matters to the whim of individual airlines? Passengers will also know what is required, whichever airline they are using.

[jonathang]

Farrell: Just to add - is Ryanair subject to the same regulations as international carriers?

For example, I read just a moment ago about a number of airlines who have been banned from flying into the UK for:

Non payment of Carriers Liability Act fines for transporting inadequately documented passengers.

Maybe this is a totally different ballgame, but I thought I'd mention it.

Wayne

Good question anyone have answer on this one? Between Ireland and the UK Ryanair are subject to Special Branch clearance. However, there is a bi-lateral agreement that does not require a passport when travelling to and from Southern Ireland.

I doubt if they have extra restrictions, which require them to be so strict with Internal UK Domestic flights. It's a company decision for reasons already states. The usual restriction of passport for International is the basic one.

MerchantVenturer: Why cannot the airlines get together and adopt a common policy, through the good offices of the CAA or even the government if necessary? After all, we are talking about security and is it right to leave such matters to the whim of individual airlines? Passengers will also know what is required, whichever airline they are using.

What does Ryanair have to gain from this move? I can understand it's in the best interest of the passenger, however it is not in the best interest of Ryanair's profit margin. Last minute bookings for mistakes with ID's are charged at full price.

Ryanair is a business and a ruthless low cost airline. MOL doesn't hide the fact it's all about money.

Jonathan

[You splitter]

The requirment for producing I.D is not necessarily one of security. Its also there to stop me selling my Easyjet / Ryanair ticket (which for whatever reason I can not use) to somebody who does need it. Thus reducing their profits.

Rules are there in order to give staff members clear and concise instruction on the procedures for their jobs and to make for an efficient and safe service for all. However they are not totally inflexible and certain Managers must have the ability to be able to change / modify or ignore a particular instruction if certain circumstances dictate. If you cant trust your managers to do this then they shouldn't be in that position.

Whats wrong with the check-in person calling their supervisor to deal with the lady? That person can assess the situation, talk to a Passenger services manager or an Ops Manager and get a decision from there. Maybe the airline would have been happy to accept her under circumstances.

[Runway 31]

"Rules are there in order to give staff members clear and concise instruction on the procedures for their jobs and to make for an efficient and safe service for all. However they are not totally inflexible and certain Managers must have the ability to be able to change / modify or ignore a particular instruction if certain circumstances dictate. If you cant trust your managers to do this then they shouldn't be in that position. "

The problem is once rules are changed for someone, they are there to be changed for everyone else. This then blurs the clear and concise instructions leaving them open to interpretation and will therefore make it a lot harder to provide an efficient and safe service.

While I feel for the lady in question, the fault was made by the person buying the ticket for her and I believe that no matter how heartless some people may find it, I believe the correct decision was made.

[WHBM]

Could it not just simply be that Ryanair narrow down the list of acceptable ID's so that their staff can comfortably and confidently recognise and validate authentic ID's

As Ryanair use handling agents, who are looking after a range of airlines, I would have thought that having different ID requirements for different carriers would increase rather than reduce the confusion of the validating staff.

I am waiting for someone denied travel by Ryanair to challenge the requirement for photo driving licence or passport on a domestic Ryanair flight in the UK courts under the Unfair Contract Terms Act. In British law you cannot just write your own unreasonable terms and get away with it. The facts that BA and others do not require photo-id on domestic routes, nor do the CAA stipulate it, that photo driving licences have still only penetrated a minority of the UK population, and that passports for domestic travel are an unreasonable requirement, would I have thought lead to an easy win.