Mickg0105
 

I have read the VH-AAV cover to cover, studied it, and used it as a training guide.
You are correct, he did retract the gear, but late, he did not retract the flap till his IAS was approx 95k, putting him 26K below blue speed, (his blue speed flap out was 106k), he eventually feathered the propeller very late, in ground effect, and ATC evidence was that he was so low he was leaving a wake in the water. He then zoom climbed to clear the rock wall and VMC took over.
He made, I think 3 separate hand held mic calls.
IMHO, his only option, once in ground effect, having put himself so far behind the drag curve, was to ditch straight ahead. Pulling up, doomed everyone.
Ironicly, the failed engine pumped through the water in the fuel, and reignited, and was at stable idle at impact, a fact that initially confounded the investigators, and further evidence that the PIC did not complete his drills correctly, ie failing to secure the dead engine.
I say again with great conviction VH-AAV was a text book case of exactly what not to do with an EFATO.
Cheers Gazumped

Since ATSB is a politically correct and pliant organisation, we already know what the outcome of its report will be; after three years of stalling, they release their report blaming the pilot.

CASA will go through the maintenance and operational paperwork for the aircraft and find that the torque wrench used to tighten the LH Outer wheel valve cap was two days past the due date for recalibration and the operators DAMP manual was missing a comma on the Fifteenth page, second paragraph. CASA will then enmesh the operator in punitive action: "show cause" notices and legal operations. The operator will be bankrupted by this unless they are smart enough to go into administration today.

The Coroner will conduct her investigation and conclude:

1) Golf is a risky sport.

2) Heavier than air aircraft should be made illegal.

3) If there was no airport at Essendon, then there would be no Essendon airport.

The State Government will blame the Liberal party for not closing the airport in 1923. They will then rezone the airport as residential land and announce plans to relocate Essendon airport to Mildura.

The media will ignore anything to do with aviation by this weekend.

The families of the pilot and passengers will be left with tears and memories as they watch their personal tragedy get used by politicians and bureaucrats for their own nefarious purposes.

Condolences to the families.

Sadly, you are probably right Sunfish, but at least my new house built at YMEN will be nice and close to the shops.

Rated on a light single... so trying to get my head around EFATO in a complex twin.
Firewall the live engine, then retract flaps, and if you have enough presence of mind, start the gear cycling.
Wouldn't you sink due to sudden reduction in camber with flaps retracting?
Isn't that a problem if you're 100 - 200 feet AGL?
Or would the several seconds the flaps take to retract from say flaps 10 (which I assume is around the takeoff setting in the B200) be offset by the spool up of the live engine to max thrust - which on a PT6 I assume is next to instantaneous.
Just asking.

Sunfish, such cynicism in one so young as yourself is distressing... :-)


You forgot two additional points:
I understand this is a husband-and-wife operation, so I expect they are already closed down. No further action by the regulatory authority required.


Anyone who once looked at a plane will now be shoved into a suit and in front of a camera as an "aviation expert".


The "Close Down Essendon Airport" crowd now have another statistic to reinforce their argument that the Airport should be closed down. 17 deaths over 40 years is a loss of life which cannot be tolerated.


Edit: Please note - I am not belittling the loss of life, as each one of those deaths is a tragedy. I do object to the fact that a similar loss of life over a similar time frame on any road in Australia would not raise an eyebrow, much less a request for the road to be closed.

They might as well close Bankstown, Archerfield, Jandakot and MEL, SYD BNE and PER as well while at it.

They all started as empty paddocks but are now surrounded by cheap housing and or factories.

What a country we have become.

JEM, runway30, Mungo - yep you guys know it, the crash of VP-BBK. Glad you guys seem to know what your talking about.

Report, for anyone is interested:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...pdf_022814.pdf

The general King Air community also believe that it could have also been a factor in the Wichita FSI crash, however the NTSB doesn't comment on that. Both engines were functional though according to the investigation.

In both of the above it was the LH engine.


Once again, this is not implying anything in regards to the Essendon crash. I just thought it wasn't a bad time to mention the phenomenon and hopefully someone might learn.



Hammerstan, not sure what your getting at but some VERY basic sums you'd be under MTOW. There's not much point me putting made up figures here as it serves no purpose.
As for if they were all sitting on the left, yeah nah, not an issue.

Sunfish: You're making one major mistake with the above assertion. You're not considering the passengers on-board. This will be one of the most heavily litigated aircraft accidents in Australian aviation history.

One passenger was a founding partner at a Texas law firm, along with some other successful Americans - they have the means and i imagine the desire to pursue this matter.

Given this was a charter flight each pax will only get $725k from the aircraft operator. Thereafter the lawyers will start looking for options, this will include any maintenance organisation who ever touched the aircraft, the engine manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer, the avionics supplier - everyone who ever had anything to do with this aircraft, including the airport operator will be dragged in front of the courts. From the subsequent investigations and defenses we will learn a lot more than just "it was the pilot's fault"

Two Mayday Calls?
 

The media are reporting two mayday calls. Does this really mean that the poor guy only had time to say it twice instead of the customary three times?

Here is Essendon in 1945 and now. The large white gash is current runway 35. It seems the houses to the south have always been there.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ilec7r.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/w178uo.jpg

Ummm.... why is the airport effectively closed for all non-emerg operations at present? Who gets to decide to close it? What's the reason?

OK guys; getting off-topic a bit here, also approaching this backwards IMHO. Dive into the books and quote all the numbers you like, but the fact is that it did NOT behave as it should have so I'd be looking at reasons why it DIDN'T not why it should have performed better. Nobody has brought up the old rule: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Why is the pilot making Mayday calls a few seconds off the runway when he 'should have' been flying the aeroplane, getting it sorted and then making a PAN call? This guy should not have been panicking at this experience level so he's got more than just a failure of #1 to contend with. This morning I saw a clip on News 24 of a prop being lifted out of the scene. No burn, so likely it's come out of the building, so likely it's from the left engine. It wasn't feathered and was not developing power. Damage was consistent with it windmilling into that roofing iron. That's a starting point for the investigators right there.

Right on cue: A first-time poster who knows "facts". :yuk:

The new airport management appears peculiarly quiet.

There are three posts here that need reflection. #138, #159 and #165

The ATSB is a tragic organisation and even more tragic is the fact they will now "play" with this investigation for years and tell us nothing!

I hope the relatively new Chief Commissioner has learned the lessons of the past and moves this along.

Perhaps the CC could start by closing out the Hotham investigation. Alternatively he could come out and say "unlike the rest of the world we are unable to complete an investigation in 12 month. I apologise for our incompetence, watch me at the inevitable Senate inquiry that Senator X will call"

Make way for the US lawyers.....

Gee - thanks LB; way to welcome a newbie. We all have to post a first comment someday. I've been part of this industry for over 50 years so I've got some clout. No facts were presented - just observations. I'm using the same info you are - what we've seen reported, and no-one has mentioned the prop before so I've thrown that in the mix. Let's see a responsible reply to what I've raised.

What was reported in media yesterday was that the pilot called "Mayday, Mayday...". That's all they wrote. Heaven knows where they sourced that.

That's not two Mayday calls. It's not even one full Mayday call.

Watching the ATSB conference on ABC News 24, journos already going the 'why was the PIC still flying if under investigation" line...

Errrm, the fact is that you, Choccy Lab, said:Your words and emphatic capitalisation.

You also said:Is it a fact that the pilot made mayday calls, plural? Read what VH-Cheer Up posted at #181.

You also said:Your emphatic underlining.

What's the difference between assertions of fact and "observations" of what DID and DID NOT happen?

Prop mentioned above

http://i66.tinypic.com/24qljk2.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/w7frxs.jpg

"Coming to the Nuisance"
 

Australia is hardly alone in having airports begin as largely rural, but then area becomes heavily developed with collusion of politicians and land developer cronies.

Followed by complaints the airport is too dangerous or noisy. Very common in US (and no doubt many other countries).

Others will move to a rural farming area (or build housing subdivisions out there). Cheap land, 'rural atmosphere', etc.

Then they complain about rural odors, noises, flies or whatever, and ask a court or local gov't to close the 'offending' facility (or force it to undertake costly measures to soundproof or odorproof or whatever).

The legal doctrine (at least in US) is called "coming to the nuisance."

If you've really been in the industry for 50 years, then I'm guessing you've lost a mate or ten in plane crashes. I certainly have. If you had any time on a Kingair time you might know that they're an absolute pig on one at low speed, that 5.29% on 1563m sounds like a walk in the park, because **** 1000m is easy ...until you lose one and those numbers look marginal at best. That putting the prop in to feather can take almost the full shutdown time for it to actually reach that position. That most single pilot drivers are use to multitasking and prioritising.... if the gear is coming up and autofeather has kicked in, below 400' there's nothing to do but nail the **** out of the attitude, most guys are able to do that with their finger on the PTT and Mayday, Rego, Catastrophic Engine Failure, Standby for details isn't that hard to get out.

People here have lost a mate, someone's lost a Dad, the accident scene has barely been inspected. We all want answers, but I'm sure the ATSB is capable of doing their job... even if it takes them two years. But hey no worries, welcome to PPRUNE, feel free to be offended that someone disagreed with your first post.

Yes, the prophesy suggesting this will be a heavily litigated accident, accords with my projections. The families will sue ATSB/CASA who have fluffed around with their investigations that "should" have led to this fella being grounded (note - I'm note saying this is correct, just a likely pursuit of the litigants, and with the poor bloke sadly departed, there'll be no defence for him). There will be ramifications for the charter industry (though they'll take ages to be implemented) and will have no actual outcome on safety and will be a further burden on us all.

I'm no expert but that prop to me looks feathered.

Yes, I thought the same when I saw it on the news last night.

Steve

Litigation is more likely to be directed towards the over development of the land immediately adjacent to RWY 17. The B200 King Air aircraft became disabled very close to rotation, or just after lift-off. Arguably, if the DFO complex was not located within the airport boundary, less than 300m from the centre-line of RWY 17, the pilot would have had the option to recover to the ground within the confines of the airport!..

Thanks Kalavo for the reasonable response; I'm not offended but did expect something like your post rather than a put down. Yes, I've lost plenty of associates to what we all love, seen some of them do it and was there when the AA King Air hit the sea wall. I'm theorizing from zero facts, and the TV prop clip was a few seconds to assess. I'm just as perplexed as you guys as to how this happened and saddened for the families. I doubt I'll post anything more on the subject and wait for real information to leak out.

Is there any discernible indication from those images that the prop was under power on impact?

Yep - at least you realize yourself that you are no expert. A propeller attached to a PT6 engine REQUIRE oil pressure to be driven OUT of the feathered position. If the supply of oil under pressure is removed for any reason (no engine attached in the picture above is reason enough), it would be spring loaded back to the feathered position. Now - whether the engine supplied power at the point of impact is a different discussion, and one that the ATSB lab will investigate. A cursory glance at the blade in the 3 o'clock position in the top picture above, does seem to indicate that the engine supplied positive torque (power) at the time of impact, but we should leave this to the investigators to determine. We also have no indication whether the propeller in the picture is the left or right, (nor do we at this stage have positive confirmation whether the left / right . both / neither engine failed) so the entire discussion is a bit futile. Not that this has stopped the armchair experts in the past....

I won't add my novice perspective to the incident itself.

I did find it interesting that the ATSB labelled the type of operation as "Private". I expected to see "Charter". Any thoughts on this? Likely an ATSB error or is there something I'm unaware of in the regs allowing paying customers (an assumption on my part) on a private flight?

control surface failure?

Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...

An interactive map from the Twitterverse showing the difference between 1966 and 2017 layout of Essendon with a sample below. This was taken off the first edition of Melways and so road/runway alignment may not have been as correct back then.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5L9DvQVYAAjtFZ.jpg

Appreciated

Yeah, we all know the theory of ANC. I would cut the bloke some slack - maybe, just maybe in the heat of what must have been a bit of a tricky situation (putting it mildly), when things weren't going right, the poor fella - perhaps aware of their impending doom, broke the rules of ANC and just pressed the button and said the words - in the vain hope, with nothing left to try, that it might do something for them.
It's an easy thing to have a go at him about - all too easy sitting in front of your computer.

Starboard engine still attached to wing here before being consumed by fire. It is visible later when the fire brigade is there, but has slumped somewhat.

http://i67.tinypic.com/10qzbx2.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2l9qwdh.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/2njyd8o.jpg

What is it about airports that attract buildings and homes at the end of runways, and does someone know if the left engine is the critical one on this a/c. Thanks.

It's not unreasonable to think that this is the most stressful position you could ever be put under (not just your own life under threat but that of your pax), so it's possible that some actions may have occurred out of order or concurrently.

At this point who is to say that he didn't perform every other action perfectly as well, therefore the radio call had no impact positive or negative on the outcome.

Greg Hood of the ATSB says the initial report will be released within 28 days. The initial report will refer to a Mayday call without elaborating on the nature of the problem. The media briefing this morning referred to some interesting facets discovered in the wreckage and records of the aircraft.

What control locks are on the B200. How many cycles/hours did Max have on the B200 ?

B772, a proper set of control locks for the B200 is a U (or V) shaped thing that goes around the engine controls, open end slides on from right to left. This is connected typically via lightweight chain to a pin that goes through the control column up against the dash, preventing aileron and elevator movement. This pin is also connected, typically via chain, to another pin for the rudder lock in the floor, which is pretty much just a little hole in the floor covered by a spring-closed flap cover, between your heels if you sat normally (feet off the controls).

If the rudder lock pin is in you won't be able to steer the nose wheel. If the pin isn't inserted correctly/the whole way (ie just dropped into the hole without the pedals central for it to engage) it will more often than not drop into the locking position when the pedals are moved and get into the central position.

Not sure how long this link will work, but here's a pic for you. Short pin control lock, longer pin at the end of the chain is for rudder.
Beechcraft King Air Engine Control Lock PN 50-590122-17 | eBay