Watching the 7.30 report.

Five people, tragically, have died and tonight, there are calls to close Essendon Airport. And I am positive that there will certainly be calls to revamp the regulations for stricter pilot training.
I wonder how many people have died as a result of car accidents in Victoria? And yet there are no calls for car drivers to be tested every year for their ability to drive in stormy weather. There are no calls for car drivers to be tested every two years for their ability to drive in daylight hours.
I wonder how many people have died as a result of a car accident on the Tullamarine freeway. And yet there are no calls as a result of these accidents to close the freeway.

This is a tragedy, that will affect (at least) five families forever.

When we are going to stop the blame game in aviation? And why do we accept such strict training and re-testing measures in aviation, when we don't apply them across the board to all transport?

And who on earth decided that GT was 'an aviation expert'?

Agreed emphatically, the B200 is all but idiot proof. Power levers drifting back because of loose friction, notwithstanding, that's what your hand on the throttles is for, please remember the very first response to any power plant problem in a light a/c is ........ you guessed it....... POWER UP, if that is not understood 100%, then you're in the seat under false pretences.

Of all the light a/c, the B200 is the cream of the crop, and with autofeather serviceable, any power plant problem is an absolute walk in the park. What is it about light twin pilots making r/t calls at low altitude, ATC can't do anything but call out the fire trucks, and surely distracting your attention at a critical point is completely unnecessary. This seems to be a common theme in EFATO accidents in light twins.

Methinks back to basics would go a long way to preventing this sort of thing, ie Fly The Aircraft.
Just saying!

Hey hoggsnortrupert, you're clearly very knowledgeable and experienced with the A/C type involved. And I can imagine how frustrating it is when you read peoples' (potentially) inane comments that indicate a lack of understanding or practical knowledge. But tonight many families have been decimated, the regular Joe Public community around Essendon that have no care or understanding of what GA means in this country now has a fresh incident that will stoke the "Close the airport!"fires and the aviation community have new uncertainty surrounding their ops, with potential for a grounding a definite threat, on the back of this crash that doesn't have an obvious explanation.

Against the backdrop of all of this upheaval and tragedy, perhaps a calmer and less aggravated countenance is required from old hands like yourself to demonstrate strength and stability.

Everyone responds differently to tragedies like this and I'm fully aware the tone in your posts could be part of the anger one feels when something seemingly so senseless and random happens. Anyhow, I hope you're okay and everyone else that's upset by this works through their emotions with some awareness of what happens. The industry's lost a very experienced pilot and his wife and children will be in a terrible state of shock and sadness. It's just not good all round.

EFATO close to the ground, if you mess-up the drills best thing one can do is firewall everything, identify the dead engine and feather the prop - if the prop won't feather your have a BIG problem. After that clean the rest of it up and fly the aeroplane.

I would go as far as to say that incapacitated pilots don't make multiple mayday calls.

The pilot reported "catastrophic" engine failure, that's a fairly big clue!

Oh no please don't say GT has finished the investigation already.

Nicely said Renegade Man

Kaz

As a general rule in a single vehicle accident, it's not usually the tree at fault.

Let's face it, aircraft are well designed, well maintained, and overregulated to an exhausting level, whilst all things are possible, we can probably rule out lightening strike, impact by meteor, in flight break up, bomb, pilot incapacitation, the ATSB will no doubt examine everything with a fine tooth comb, but this has all the hallmarks of a Garden variety EFATO not flown to a satisfactory standard, in an a/c that goes like a home sick angel on one engine, just saying.

It bears remembering, no one has managed to invent a new way to come to grief in and aircraft for the last 50 years, generally it is the same old mistakes that keep getting repeated.

Wouldn't worry too much in that regard Clare Prop. The TV news segment shown on the ABC TV here in South Australia showed GT for about 4 seconds of any commentary he made and the subtitle at the screen bottom described him as an "Aviation Journalist."

Which is about accurate enough I guess.

What irritated me was the scenes showing anti Essendon Airport protesters and an interview with some Female who demanded the place be shut down etc etc.:rolleyes:

Would really like to meet face to face such people. My comments to them would not be very nice!:*:=

B200 EFATO
 

Ladies and Gentlemen,

There is much conversation here about the content of the radio call describing the failure.

Can I please offer some advice to all without any reference to the actual course of events in this incident other than:

A radio call will not help you; a radio call does nothing for you!!

Making a radio call will reduce your capacity to fly, slow down your reactions and slow down your actions. DO NOT make radio calls in case of an EFATO.

The correct course of action is POWER DRAG TRIM and you will fly away safely.

I have flown the B200 and it was later in my career. I used to do my LPCs on the aircraft deliberately at MTOW and on one occasion the TRE would not let me feather to show me what it was like. It did climb away at V2 without the failed engine feathered, only just but it did climb when in trim with full power on the live engine and flown accurately at V2 without large control movements i.e. smoothly without any unnecessary drag.

Forget about radio calls and fly the aircraft accurately!!!!

After you have climbed away you can make a call only if you have capacity and after everything is under control.

MM

Hogsnortrupert. Yes, from a "suitable" runway it will.

But is YMEN 17 @ 5128' (5.29%) "suitable"?

I only have an old dusty SuperKingAir 200 Raisbeck HFG manual and it's interesting how marginal it is reading the graphs with YMEN 17 data.

Now I don't know the details of the ZWC and I am not speculating whether it could or couldn't get away (noting that it was not legally required to be able to) but it irritates me when people say these things are always awesome on one and thus there is no problem.

Oh - and what type of Kingair are you referring to? My manual says ISA SL 12,500lb 700fpm@121kts OEI feathered, Max continuous, Flaps 0, Gear up.

Gazumped,

You are being ignorantly and unfairly critical of the PIC of VH-AAV, the airplane involved in the 1980 Sydney accident. You mention the accident report, perhaps you should read it - copy available here.
The PIC had retracted the gear, feathered the left prop and flaps were fully retracted at impact; what he failed to do was go to maximum power from the company required limited power take-off setting of 700°C ITT.

So, contrary to your assertion the PIC carried out three of your "just" one" of" actions and the airplane still did not climb away.

So Max gets denial of justice due to a 2 year delay on an incident report. How can the previous report be fair now that he can't reply or defend himself. Well done ATSB. Your 2 year reports are a disgrace. Another part of the broken Australian aviation system.

The pilot did NOT report catastrophic engine failure. There are reportedly two mayday calls, and I don't believe the contents have been released :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I agree with compressorstall, hogsnortrupert. I flew the B200 variant. V1/VR were both 95kts for a flapless takeoff, which was normal per the POH; so no flap retraction required at 400ft. There was no published 2nd segment. Although you'd never do it in the real aircraft, and who knows how good sim fidelity is, the handling charateristics of the B200 on one engine between VR and V2/VYSE were certainly not gentle. Engine failures after V2, like someone else mentioned; you'd hardly notice them if the autofeather and rudder boost worked as advertised. Agree about the climb out potential once at speed.:ok:

I used to have these figures written down somewhere when I was flying the things, but the figure of 5% climb gradient, at MTOW, ISA +25, Sea Level, comes to mind.

The B200 is a very capable aircraft when flown accurately on one engine. But, an engine failure at or just above rotate requires some pretty precise flying to get away from the ground safely.

Until one is put in such a position, then I'd be hesitant to say that "he should have been able to fly away on one engine".

RIP to all those onboard.

morno

Morno, pretty close. Also to add it's not just precise flying. It's runway length too.

My accelerate-go graphs show 6800' field length to get to V2 (121kts) at ISA, MTOW etc. Once there you have a climb gradient of a bit under 5% (600fpm).

F40 gives a bit over 5000', but a 3.5% ROC at a lower V2 (106kts)

Hoggs, I get that your emotional so I won't direct any comments your way.


For the others, as not everyone that flies the B200 is a pro; there are private weekend type guys that don't have the training or frequent flying the pros get, they might not be aware of just how savage the B200 power lever slide can be. A four-blader with one at takeoff power and the other at idle is not an ideal place to be.
It can go from takeoff power to idle in the time it takes you to select the gear up and it feels very much like an engine failure. For the inexperienced they can get startled and mis-diagnose what just happened and then handle the situation poorly- humans make mistakes.
But, if someone learns of this potential trap then they will be better prepared if it happens to them.

Once again, I never implied that this was the cause of today's accident.


Barry, Raisebck got FAR 25 performance numbers- initial takeoff with flaps is much better although 2nd segment isn't as good. I much preferred those numbers.

Can I ask pilots of twin turbine single pilot operations that are on pprune ... Do you perform takeoff safety briefs as part of EVERY takeoff? Are they even taught in turbine lessons?

VB - yes brief every takeoff. That was our policy.

As for other operators I wouldn't know.

Yes - absolutely.

It has been 25 years since I flew a BE20 but I seem to recall part of the briefing involved discussing actions for engine failure below blue line speed (V2 or Vtoss). Was it 121kts? Was rotate 95kts?

I seem to recall that there would be controllability problems below the blue line speed under certain conditions.

Flying in PNG, if my memory is correct, we used to brief closing the other condition lever and landing straight ahead.

Same at my company and ones previous. All TO/ Approaches on all types.

Take off safety briefings should be done in all aircraft types!!!

I brief myself when I'm flying a 172, might be very short. Glide speed, which way I will head/turn should the engine fail and pre impact drills. Only takes me about 5 seconds to mentally go through.

Is anyone able to calculate the weight & balance for this aircraft type?

Let's assume pilot + 4x pass (well above std 80kg), 4x full golf clubs + 4 x heavy suitcases packed for their trip from initial origin in the US (worst case).

+ full fuel (for return 2 hour trip + reserves)

How does this stack up with even slight power loss on take-off?

What if all the pax were seated at the very front or rear of the aircraft (or all on the left side to see the view of Melbourne CBD as they departed - which incidentally was the direction the aircraft turned).

Interested if this throws up any red lights?

From the dash cam video it appears that;
1. No smoke visible
2. Landing gear up
3. Wings level
4. Descent rapid but fairly constant

Would an engine failure in a B200 likely cause smoke? Perhaps the video quality was not good enough to see this evidence.

Why is everyone talking about V1/V2 when operating a B200 - a Part 23 aircraft.

Sure there are Part 25 performance figures in the AFM, but operating to that criteria would severely restrict where you could operate the aircraft.

How about we limit the performance and terminology to that which is applicable to the aircraft's certification standard.

Yes and Yes. Not only a company policy, but a personal policy.

Interesting to hear the ATSB are referring to the type of operation as being Private. This could have some implications. There is a ATSB press conference tomorrow.

Brutus. You are so correct re PNG.

I understand the was a 4 kt breeze from the North West at the time of the accident. If Max had used the much longer R/W 26 could he have got back on the ground without over running the RSA.

Is this airfield so surrounded by schools, warehouses, highways, that there is nowhere suitable to put down without the final turn that comes unstuck? in that case the airfield should undergo some prompt removal of dangerous development. Enough to give a place to land straight ahead in case of EFATO. Years ago a light aircraft landed without causing damage on a roof near High Wycombe, when the pilot suffered a epileptic episode on approach, he was unable to see facing into the sun.

I have only flown gliders and single engine aircraft; having a look at the book of instruction that must be absorbed to fly this twin safely the second engine would only confuse me.

Stallie, spot on, its also about gradients and the last time I calculated it for the average Part 23 type, and it was a while ago, for EN R26 that radio mast to the west was an issue, if it is still there and for R17 it was under or over the Westgate or around which building in the city.

There seems to be a great deal of confusion around here about performance and Part 23 v Part 25.

I mean this in the kindest way Mary...have a look at the area on google maps...Max had very few options when the poo hit the fan.

Years ago, in England, a Kingair was taking off in fog, crashed shortly after take-off [into buildings, I think], and the accident report concluded that it was power lever slide back. It was owned and flown by a well known Motor Racing journalist, whose name escapes me. Think it took off from Blackbushe.

VP-BBK perhaps?

JEM60
I believe that event was prompted by a rollback due to an oversight in not applying the throttle friction locks. Believing that he'd suffered an engine failure the pilot misidentified the 'failing' engine and reacting instinctively secured the wrong engine.

As for briefing prior to departure.. yes, most do that but there's a huge difference in repeating by rote a departure brief, and actually psyching oneself up to be primed for an EFATO event.
Having spent a few years of my career as a FlightSafety Instructor I know from experience that even when knowing what's about to happen pilots regularly need more than one attempt to deal with an EFATO event successfully.

Great to see that the process of discrediting and denigrating the pilot has already begun in the media. Well done the civic-minded person/authority that leaked the details of a previous investigation of a near miss and IR re-testing.

Right on time: Before he's been buried.

Clearly this pilot was a dangerous Maverick just hankering to spear a B200 and his passengers into a DFO.

I do hope that CASA will be given more power, and more rules will be made and more regulatory constraints placed on pilots.

It's great to be reminded, once again, of the kind of parasitic scum that get their jollies and make their living off the public fear created by these tragedies.

And hopefully the investigation and causes of the accident will be completed and identified by PPRuNers shortly.

They were just saying on t.v that the authorities will be looking at Essendon Airport as they are now thinking it is too close to built up areas. :-( And who's fault is that?

Lead Balloon
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

601 I used FAR25 figures as that's what I had to hand. They show what the limitations of one particular b200 airframe actually are. You won't get that level info out of the FAR 23 figures for obvious reasons. The trouble is these obvious reasons lead many people to say these things are never any trouble on 1...

Whilst my great grandfather was the country's first dedicated ATC at EN between the wars, they lived in a little house off the end of 17. My then young grandmother recalls the huge paddocks around the house, as well as dining with the Holymans pilots who'd drop by after work. Anyone who dares say to me that the airport is too close to houses will cop a verbal barrage from me.

the huge paddocks around the house

Used to be a real estate agent (Lindsay Crapp ? - I rented the premises upstairs) located next to De Marco's pub and he was an aviation enthusiast of note.

Around the walls were numerous photos of the early days at Essendon. Those paddocks were shown very clearly ... the airport was well and truly out in the sticks in the early days.

As a Boeing airports chap told me decades ago .. the general technique is to build an airport in the bush .. twenty odd years later all the housing around results in the usual calls for the airport to be shut down.