I flew from Mildura yesterday with Ozrunways 2 on an iPad2. It lost GPS a bit further than Ouyen and didn't regain it until past Bendigo on the way to Melbourne. The programme seems to have a dead reckoning feature, because the aircraft symbol kept tracking (erratically) for a while after the GPS signal was lost and a track & ground speed continued to be displayed long after signal was lost. Its the first time I've used it and I'm not fluent with it yet, but it doesn't appear that there is any indication of GPS integrity. I think this is poisonous. The other thing that bothers me is that despite having loaded the VIC ERC chart on the ground the night before (which I thought saved it locally), I could not access it in flight. The iPad was clearly looking to download it but couldn't due to lack of reception. This is probably operator error, but it turns the iPad into the usefulness of a brick if you slip up.

I had Jepp FliteDeck running beside the iPad on my LS800 and (at least from an IFR perspective) its seems more stable and changes pages / setup faster & more simply with a clear GPS integrity indication and greater setup flexibility. But its not a VFR device in any way.

Having said that, Ozrunways seems a useful VFR device. In my opinion it requires an external bluetooth GPS. If that GPS had a signal monitoring function it would address the bulk of my concerns.

AKRO is right a GPS integrity message is needed before there is an accident, especially if there is a DR capability built in.

My marine software has a voice message - "GPS Failure" when its lost.

I was using it on my iphone today ( on the train:} ) , and it did tell me when the gps signal was good, poor or non existant..Top left corner green, yellow or red light. It also let me know what kind of error I could have been experiencing in metres.
It didnt go that well in the train, but have been playing with it (obsessively) since i downloaded it, and its been pretty accurate everywhere else. I can only assume the overhead wires were not being all that friendly to the signal?.

If I was smart enough to be able to upload photo's I'd show you a screen shot with a green dot, no airspeed or track data and the aeroplane icon pointing in a completely different direction than we were travelling. The green dot trial leading up to this point is erratic also, so it was clearly struggling before it gave up.

There is no DR capability built in. The app uses location data sent by the device. If the device thinks there is a good signal, it will display the position and the estimated error. If there is no signal, it will display "--" in the boxes, simple as that.

The internal GPS on the iPad 3G has shortcomings when going to places outside coverage, so best to get an external one. Some people report brilliant reception at FL350 and some report crappy performance at 4500ft.

Take note of the "Not for use in Air Navigation" people; your Gamin says a similar thing when you turn it on and press "Accept". Until CASA say otherwise, please use as informational/safety backup device - just like you're meant to do with your non-TSO'd Garmin.

Note: If CASA copy the FAA rules like they say they are doing now, then we may be able to remove the "Not for Air Navigation" message, but I'd suggest from reading the documents that there will still be a warning regarding use of "own-ship positon" features on maps. It may be more time again before they approve this, and it may be external GPS only. Who knows.

Well said Shaggy.

People remember this is a $100 app on a "computer"

We can't expect it to perform miracles and if one relies on it and an accident occurs through said reliance, well then :mad::mad::mad:

Hell you have to pay $10,000 to get an IFR GPS that doesn't come close to the abilities of OR2. But that price is paid for how reliable it is "supposed" to be.

Cheers

Can you email the images to [email protected]? We'd love to take a look at it.

If you ever notice any problems, you can take a screenshot of the iPad by pressing and holding the home and power buttons together until the screen flashes. The image will be in the photos app and from there you can email them to us.

Even better if you also have a video camera handy and can video the behaviour.

The more info we get, the more we can debug!

Thanks for your help and support, guys.

Have not seen the cone of silence yet, but I am amazed how well it works in my office, most gps struggle and this one works so it's no worse than others.

Keep up the good work!

40+ hour test coming up ove the next few weeks, will keep you posted enroute if Mrs Jaba will let me use the iPad.

Don't tell me.
You drive one of those cars that has engraved on the rear view mirror...objects that appear here are actually behind you!
:ugh:

Capt Fathom, nope, it's just that the marine software has a dead reckoning mode. It is therefore important to know which mode you are in as confusion can prove fatal.

The voice alerts are very useful since I'm often sailing single handed with a lot of stuff to do.

Both in the air and on the water, I work on the old saw: "never pass up an opportunity to fix your position." GPS can sometimes do strange things and when that happens a pencil mark and a time on a paper chart are your best friend.

I've had that experience integrating my marine system with its Laptop, flux gate compass, gyro, GPS, integrated log and wind instruments and Autopilot. I can assure you that it is very disorienting when the various bits start disagreeing with each other, and the safest thing to do is turn everything off, get out the chart, and play with the toys when safely at anchor.

To put it another way "A man with one watch knows what time it is. A man with Two is never quite sure."

Anyway, hopefully at the end of the month I'll give the software and iPad a Two week workout with some outback touring. I'll be able to compare Ozrunways with the aircrafts TSO'd GPS and moving map system.

That's all a bit of an overkill for port Phillip Bay Sunny!

XXX:

Not the other day in the fog it wasn't, and a lot of my sailing is single handed. If i really want to stress the poor little PC, I make it play a DVD in one window while chart plotting in the other :)

Does anyone know if an external bluetooth GPS will work with a WiFi iPad2 with internal GPS and OzRunways?

There seems to be some doubt if this can be done without adding third party software from a non apple source.

Yes Sunfish:

GNS 5870 MFI GPS Bt Receiver ("WAAS" Enabled) or another called bad Elf. The former is Bluetooth and the later plugs into the charging port. I have heard both work well but the latter feels a little fragile. I am planning on buying the former and clipping it to the sun visor.

As usual when I post a question on Pprune, I stumble over the answer myself a few minutes later.

The Dual XGPS150 works on Ipads 1 and 2, with or without GPS receivers, and I've ordered one.

Does anyone stock them or do you have to wait two weeks?

Was just about top order a dual from sporty's, us$99.95
Any local suppliers/cheaper?

Bas,
I have done 34 hours flying with it in the last week.
No real probs except there are issues with WAC charts and true positions at close zooms.
This might also be tied in with the occasional gap in map display at close zoom.
Will put a list together for you blokes.
185.

I use a Haicom bluetooth GPS engine with the LS80 & Jeppview. I haven't tried it with the ipad yet. I got it from Johnny Appleseed who do mail order. There are heaps of them on ebay too.

My first instinct is to say: that's because the WACs are of poor quality! Have a look at Strathalbyn. Yeah, it's right on where two WACs were stitched together (Port Augusta and Adelaide) and it's clear it is marked in different locations on each map. Although usually close, I would take the true position of anything on a WAC with a pinch of salt... (something you are unlikely to notice when dead reckoning.)

That said: if you can find multiple point that are out of place in the same area, especially if you see roads not match up, there could be an issue with the geocoding of an individual map, so do let us know!

Bas.

We're trying to talk to Dual, but they haven't been very responsive. We'd love to re-sell them in Aus because they are the best option for getting good accuracy out of OzRunways.

WAAS doesn't work in Australia. In fact, if you manage to pick up a signal on the east coast on a good day, you are more likely to decrease your accuracy. So if your GPS supports WAAS, make sure it is disabled in Australia!

Other than that, the receiver should do the job quite nicely.

Used it today whilst flying in a PA28 and it worked a treat!!
The GPS locked on quickly and was exactly the same as the Garmin GNS430.

However, I'm not sure how it will go on a knee pad, the yoke would bash the screen easily and that wouldn't be good:ooh:

Had a play with this in the air yesterday, very impressed! Only thing I noticed is that it seems that position on the map, completed track etc doesn't update unless I manually move/touch/zoom in or out of the map. I assume that's not supposed to be the case? Any ideas?

Yeah sorry that's a stupid bug that we missed because we did all our testing with the "moving map mode" on [the button that turns blue in the bottom left].

I've fixed that for v2.0.1 coming out soon. In the mean time just make sure moving-map mode is enabled.

WAC charts
 

Bas, my understanding of WAC charts is that they are individual snapshots from the globe rather than a 'cut' map (like falconview can do) and are never meant to be stitched together. What backs this up is I had a wall of paper WAC charts. None of the charts lined up and interpretation was needed to draw accurate pencil tracks for planning.

Cheers

VNE, that is because they are Lambert projections.:ok: - They should line up edge to edge (not top to bottom) but in an arc...

Thanks champ. Do you always value add.

That's correct in the printed versions. However, if you know the actual positions in the corners, you can make them square and cut them into tiles for use in an electronic mapping application.

That's what we do for OzRunways and it works very well. The only downside is cut-off labels (town names) on some stitches. Nothing that will get you lost.

Hopefully one of these decades electronic maps will become the standard and we won't have those problems. Instead, AsA will create a perfect full-country electronic WAC and it's the dinosaurs using the printed versions that will have sub-optimal cut outs! :)

Cheers Bas. I was chatting to Shagpile about it this afternoon. Busy times!

Have you guys seen flight guide?? Few ideas from them would go down a treat. Specifically the option to add jepp plates and other goodies to the mix... I would even pay more for the privilege...

We get the WAC charts from Airservices in WGS84. Warp them into Mercator, stitch them together then tile them. Takes about 8hrs for my Macbook to process them all.

Only pics online - Note that the USA has open access to all their aeronautical data, which is also has geo-referenced approach plates. We will have to do all this manually.

What this means is that you see a lot more different, innovative apps coming out of USA as there isn't the massive startup risk involving $10k+ just to buy the data.

I doubt Jepp will give anybody their charts (correct me if I'm wrong?) as they have their own app they are pushing. They aren't sharing the DO-160E testing (rapid decompression to FL510) either, instead keeping it as a company asset they can share to customers to help them work with the FAA to get approval to use Jepp/iPad.

We've donated to paperlesscockpit.com who are about to conduct a "community sponsored" decompression testing. We'll have the results in a month or two hopefully. I'd encourage anybody else who is interested in the results to donate too (so you get a free copy of the testing report).

Comparison to Garmin Aera 500?
 

From the preceding discussion about OzRunways (which sounds like a sensational app) this might appear a silly question, but I have been saving up to buy myself a Garmin Aera 500 sometime this year. Now I wonder if I should buy myself an iPad and this app/subscription, for a similar all-up price -- and you've the iPad for all the other stuff you can do with it, both aeronautical and otherwise.

Is this a no-brainer? How does OzRunways compare to the Jepps-based stuff in the Aera 500? Have specialised units like the Aera had their day?

Thanks in advance, Rattly.

dumb question, but you mention that you don't need an active internet connection to view the maps, you can download them before hand. I take it you mean caching, where I have to view the maps on an interne connection before hand, eg browse and let load the entire Darwin WAC before I can use it offline? How long does the cache last and will I be able to zoom the map offline?

Nick - the cache lasts until the new map is released. I wouldn't call it "cache" but rather a "download."

You don't have to browse the map beforehand (like Google earth), you simply go into the download section of the app and choose the relevant VTC / VNC etc. Those are roughly 12-13 MB each. The WAC is a one-piece download somewhere in the mid 200 mb's. You can download all VNC's etc or none, your choice. If you're on a good connection it's pretty quick, or drop by McDonalds on the way home from work.

Yes, indeed you can zoom all of the maps offline, assuming they have been pre-downloaded.

As someone that knows a little about IT, the only risk I see with it is when there are thousands of subscribers and it ticks over the new map period, everyone will hit the downloads page and bring the OzRunways ISP down, but I'm assured that the boys at OzRunways have taken this into consideration and increased their download limits :ok:

Do I get a spotter's fee? With version 1.0 I signed up a whole bunch of QF drivers. Now with the WACs and other charts everyone who has a look and has an Ipad (and didn't already have Ozrunways) is looking to sign up. Those that don't have an ipad are seriously thinking about getting one on the basis of this app alone.

It certainly makes trans continental flying much more enjoyable. Now all I need is a bluetooth GPS for the ipad because plotting via lat/long is giving me a sore neck looking at the overhead panel and then back down to the ipad every few minutes or so.

Forget the sore neck...go with the RSI KEG - press a few more buttons on the modern FMC and get your LAT LONG from there...

Hey Keg doesn't the 76 have a Pos page on it's FMC?

yup nitpicker it does ...hence my post above to KEG .... but methinks its easier to bend your neck back and look up at the IRS display rather than flipping through the FMC index...

Lay the ol seat back and rest your head on the head rest........zzzzzzzzzzz

After you wake up from controlled rest check the Lat Long :ok: