Inaccurate logbook entries
 

My apologies if I am asking questions that have been covered elsewhere – when searching the forums I found this thread http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...k-forgery.html , but I was looking for more specific information that did not seem to be answered there, and am hoping more clever and wiser minds than mine can answer some questions.
My questions are about log book fraud/ false entries/’massaging’ of flight time in Australia.
I have been told that some slight adjustment of figures is common, especially amongst low hour pilots (e.g. adding an additional 0.1 to some flights).
Is this actually common practice?
If so, at what point do you ppruners think this becomes excessive/fraudulent?( Is 0.1 on some flights allowable? Is 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, or 0.4 too much for a flight? Is any ‘adjustment’ just plain fraudulent?)
According to the CASA website : Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Pilot Log Books , falsification of flight time is a criminal offence. CAR 5.51 has a note saying “Note It is an offence against regulation 283 for a person to make a false or misleading statement in his or her personal log book , but CAR 283 doesn’t exist – it seems to have dropped out of the Regulations sometime in the last 10 years or so.
For current legislation:
CAR 5.51 http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legi...on1988Vol2.pdf
CAR 282 - 286 http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/Legi...on1988Vol3.pdf

So if CASA do take regulatory action against a pilot, under what laws/parts of law are they acting?
What evidence is required to prove suspected logbook fraud? Is exaggeration of flight hours the same as falsification?
If you are made aware that someone is currently, or has in the past been exaggerating flight time in their log book what are your legal obligations?
Are there any implications for an organizations Chief Pilot if they are aware that a pilot employed in their organization has inflated flight time in the past? If they continue to do so while employed by the organization as a pilot?
What are the insurance implications for the organization if they allow that pilot to use their aircraft, knowing that there may be false or inflated flight time?
Would you employ a pilot if you had suspicions about the accuracy of their log book? Does this reflect on their general integrity, would this person be a risk of breaches of professionalism in other aspects of their flying, or is it a common enough occurance to be allowable under some circumstances with careful monitoring?
Your comments and advice are appreciated.
Cheers,
Spotty Dog

The reference to:

Is a reference note only and does not in any way lessen or vary the requirements of CAR5.52. CAR283 has been superceded by provisions of the Crimes Act (Sect 6.1?), although it appears CASA have not "got around" to removing the note from CAR 5.51.

(I doubt anyone in the aviation industry would be surprised the CARs contain an incorrect reference, after all it has only taken 22 years so far for CASA to carry our their review.......)

Intentionally fudging a Log Book by 0.1, 1.0 or 10 hours is fraudulent and an offense under the Crimes Act.

There are no shades of grey. You can't be "a little bit guilty".

If CASA audits a pilot's Log Book they will reconcile pilot's logged hours against the aircraft MR (and/or other flight records) and ASA records.

The accuracy of your Log Book is your personal responsibility. Fudge your Log Book and you will be personally liable.

Don't even think about it. :=

This is a very interesting topic, and I'm glad you have brought it up (Gillard 2010 :p).

In all seriousness I have seen all sorts of rules of thumb during my time in GA. The first company I worked for it was all logged off the VDO however these have a tendency to run too slow on the ground so some Pilots added extra to the VDO to compensate.

Another company I worked for added 0.1 to each landing and measured flight time as your wheels off wheels on time. In a bungles queue you could wait an extra 20 mins some days to get airborne and it would not be logged, as you only logged 0.1 for all ground time.

This is against the regs as you are technically not logging all your flight time!

Another company added 0.3 per landing which was for IFR or 0.1 a taxi and 0.2 for a run-up.

In the end I just logged my chocks to chocks time, although this usually equaled about 0.3 a sector which IMO is a pretty good rule of thumb.

I wonder if what you're thinking of is the relatively common practice of adding 0.1 to flight-times, to allow for taxi-times at the start/end of a flight. A practice that as far as I'm aware is quite legal.

Now, it's been a long time since I studied aviation law -and then, that was in NZ; but within the CAR's, there used to be -as a definition of loggable time- words to the effect of: "from the time the aircraft 1st moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight, until the aircraft comes to rest at the end of that flight". Given that most operators record aircraft total-times, MR flight times etc. on squat-switch timers, tacho timers or pre-determined block-times, the practice of adding 0.1/0.2 to those times where appropriate is both legal and bl@@dy nearly mandated in law IMO!

One thing I can freely guarantee you right now is, your question is going to be the catalyst for some pretty serious and robust debate here -starting any minute now :E

Grab some popcorn and settle in for the entertainment!!!

And that is precisely what you are legally required to log. :ok:

Any other "rule of thumb" could potentially run you into conflict with CASA.

If the rules of thumb are going to land you in trouble, I'd like to know what accuracy is required when logging the times then.

Nearest 0.1hr? Nearest 0.01hr? Nearest 1hr?

Typical Aussie GA... my way is correct and any other method is wrong and you will all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. :ugh:

Use any reasonable rule of thumb you like, with a dash of common sense!

CAO 48 definition.

Simple really.

From an aircraft operators perspective, my LAME told me on the weekend that I should be logging the engine run time, less 10% (for taxi time) and writing that in the maintenance release. Everyone seems to have their own rules for this stuff.

TW

And that is the problem, the airswitch or timers driven by other digital inputs vary quite a bit.

The engine data for our a/c, and we do not sit around any longer than required to warm up the oil to the minimum temperature, and we do not do many flights under 30 min and many are 1-3 hours, shows a Hobbs/Tach ratio of 1.193, so thats about 0.2 of an hour per every hour flown.

If you want to be realistic in your averages then you need to take the TACH time and add about 0.2 or 0.3 per flight if you are being truthfull. I have timed it many times and it is usually a total of around 12 minutes for both taxi's and fuelling etc so on a fair and accurate estimate that I would be prepared to stand up in court and prove, 0.2 is it.

Food for thought :cool:

Easiest method I ever used back before I joined the airlines was SUDS (Start Up Down Stop).

Up and Down went into the aircraft tech log. Start and Stop went into my logbook.

No fuss working off tachos, air switches or "rules of thumb".

It's as per CAO 48 definition with an allowable error of -/+ 3 minutes as .1 of an hour is 6 mins.So 9mins is .1 and 10 mins is .2 etc.And as it's a LEGAL requirement to carry a TIMEPIECE (not mobile phone digital time read-out) measuring hours/minutes/seconds under CAO20.18.Hopefully we can all read the time!!Any other interpretation of this by operators is ILLEGAL.

Why is a mobile phone not a timepiece?

Why is it then that my ops manual, as approved by CASA, states to use airswitch plus 0.1 as a rule but more as appropriate?

In my last job I recorded actual taxi and takeoff times because that was what worked best on that particular operation.

mates rates, I hope you haven't been incorrectly teaching your students that the ONLY way to calculate logged time is to measure it exactly on your watch!

This is exactly what I was referring to in my first post on this thread. The ones that get all high and mighty telling everyone how it MUST be done usually are the ones that get it wrong.

(BTW, if you are going to use that method, which is fine, when your watch says 9 minutes its 0.2. You don't need to wait for it to say 10 minutes. Have a think about it.)

Back on topic, however, I have heard of a bunch of instructors at a particular flying school beefing up their multi time (and saving money at the same time because they were only paying airswitch) by taxiing to the runup bay and spending a significant amount of time there, flying a couple of quick circuits, and calling it a day. Perfectly within the rules but sickens me nonetheless. They would have spent even less and got a whole lot more out of doing a few hours ICUS on some real operations in a PA31. What ya reckon GG? :}

Used to be that the requirement for legal timekeeping in-flight was for an hour and minute hand, with sweep-hand indicating seconds. Sorry, no ref available -it was a while ago ;)

Additionally when I was studying all this (and I suspect when the rules/regs were written) it was all pre-cellphones! That may have some bearing also :}

Since my phone displays hours, minutes and seconds, its legal.

If I do 4 sectors in a day with 5mins worth of taxiing at each end + 10mins for a RunUp at the beginning of the day thats 0.6 added to the Switch for my Logbook.
If I had instead added a 'standard' 0.2 per sector that makes 0.8 to be added for my logbook.
That's a difference of 0.2 per day, 1.0 per week...... adding up isn't it. A years worth of logging like this and I could easily inflate by 40-50hours per year.

You need to be accurate with this stuff, avoid using the 'rule of thumb'. How you time it is up to you but I also use 'Blocks to Blocks' on a stopwatch. That "Start, Up, Down, Stop" idea also sounds pretty good though.

If you are taking a shot at my 0.2, bare in mind different ops will have different numbers. Mine are private/business and like Saturdays flight to NBR and back it was say 1h50 down and about 1hr30 back plus a warm up and taxi/backtrack and a refuel and taxi at the end of the day. So 2 sectors only.

If you are doing lots of sectors in a day and smaller durations then 0.2 would be way over the top.

In my example above the flight time on the engine TACH time was 3.4 and logged as 3.8, or only 11% which is far below the 19% average.

You need to have a reliable and accurate method of doing this that you can prove.

J:ok:

Exactly Jaba In certain ops airswitch plus .1 is simply no where near an accurate indication of chocks on to chocks off in say circuit ops in a Baron/Bo on a short runway where for safety each landing is a full stop and taxi back to the end of the runway - perhaps wait at the holding point etc etc. A session of circuits of .5 airswitch could be up to 1.0 in chocks to chocks time.

And another one......

4 x 10 mins of taxiing plus 10 mins is 50 minutes, which to most people is 0.8.
The same as 0.2 per sector.

You have shown that the two are the same in your particular operation. I log 0.1 per sector as per my company's ops manual because on average the total taxi time is going to be less than 9 minutes.

This is an accepted method of complying with the rules of logging flight time. What part of that do some of you not understand?

Just read the CAO's which for once in this case,are simply written and apply them.

You are correct, but I said 5 mins at each end, which is 2 and a half to taxi in and 2 and a half to taxi out. The first taxi out of the day takes a little longer due to initial A/C setup... subsequent sets of checks run smoother, faster.

Jaba
I didn't intend on having to explain the details in my numbers, these are just the actual times that I have recorded from chocks to chocks. My intention was to illustrate how important it is to log accurate times. i.e. what you are actually flying rather than settling for a 'rule of thumb'. It isn't hard to note your chocks out at the start and chocks in at the end and using the difference.

If you read the spotted dog's first post above, the second sentence (and second paragraph) states:

You can split hairs in calculating taxi time etc but it is only pointless thread drift. :=

I suspect - and hope I am very wrong - that the spotted dog was asking ways to fudge a log book and get away with it.

We're not interested in any illegal schemes to fudge Log Books being posted on PPRuNe, but he does raise an interesting question about the reference to CAR283 in CAR5.52. I called my local FOI who mumbled his way through a response by suggesting the reference to CAR283 is now replaced with provisions of the Crimes Act.

Well there are probably plenty of ways to dodgy your log books.....and still not ever be proven otherwise. But who really has such a desperate need to do so?:=

Do the right thing, and you cant go too far wrong!

J:ok:

bickering over taxi times may be splitting hairs but it is, as has already been said, an easily defendable way to inflate.

Here here.

This is EXACTLY what we do. Makes it easier as its part of our Ops Manual (which is sanctioned by CASA and, I hope, reflects a legal practice).

HP

Folks,
Our esteemed moderator, Tailwheel, has spelled it out quite clearly: This is one of the few areas that are quite clear in the regulations.

Both pilot and aircraft log books are a happy hunting ground for CASA investigators, and the charge is criminal fraud per the Commonwealth Crimes Act.

Comes in very handy when CASA/DPP want to beef up a case that is a bit thin, nothing like a "substantial" list of alleged offenses to impress the Judge that you are a serial offender and a serious threat to aviation safety, and not just somebody who has made an isolated mistake.

Believe me: My CFI/LAME/good mate/boss/rabbito/I'm given to believe/Friday night aero club legal x-spert/ etc / told me "rules of thumb" (or alternative body parts) has no standing when it come to the "interpretation" of block time and air time.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Something different to the Act/CARs/CASRs/CAOs in a log book, or in an Operation Manual, unless based on a Legislative Instrument, has no standing ---- CASA do not "approve" Operations Manuals, they "accept" same, an important difference.

Yeah, it's been answered well and truly!! Can't believe I'm wasting time writing here... :}

All those with "rules of thumb" etc, repeat after me:

"Rules of thumb for logging of flight time are for JOKERS - people who can't be bothered looking at a timepiece twice in a flight, or doing sh!t properly in general..." :D

Got it? It is about the easiest part of your job!!

So why am I wasting time writing this post? Someone mentioned Ops manuals, and I was reminded of a previous job where a total peanut CP (we've all had 'em! :}) insisted that I use his rule of thumb for logging flight time :hmm:

I said "ping off" and he started crapping on about getting it inserted into the Ops Manual if neccessary! Ha ha good times :yuk:

CR.

LeadSled's post reminds me - if CASA get bloody-minded, each occurrence your Log Book does not reflect the actual recordable flight time as per the CAO is a separate offense.

Is it worth risking fifty or more criminal charges for fraudulent Log Book entries, each 0.1 hour?

A reliable time piece is less than one hundred bucks. Isn't your flying career worth that small investment? :confused:

I recall one of the charges initiated by CASA against an AOC holder was a 3 hour overrun on a 100 hourly inspection, due entirely to a self confessed innocent pilot error in addition on the MR. And CASA discovered the error some 300 airframe hours (and 3 hundred hourly inspections) later.

It does not matter what your Ops Manual states. Where an Ops Manual states or implies anything contrary to the Act, Regulations or Orders, the Act, Regulations or Orders prevails.

The law is ..... well, the law! Knowingly or unknowingly vary it at your peril.

The same questions about Log Book entries comes up time and time again on PPRuNe, every year for the past 12 or 13 years to my knowledge.

Log Book Forgery

Time entries for a logbook when there is no VDO

Fake instrument flight time logged

And those three are only in 2010. :{

I think the subject has more than been done to death?

I remember the case of the Virgin Blue captain after flying Brisbane to Melbourne gin clear weather all the way and on autopilot too. After shut down he says to the F/O who is writing up the times sheet "Put me down for an hour I/F will you?'

How's that for integrity....:mad:

Some genius please tell me which part of the CAO is being broken by adding an average figure, when appropriate, to the accurate air time figure from the GPS to calculate the flight time?

You're saying all the pilots that follow the ops manual at my operator are jokers?

There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are more ways than just counting the minutes and converting that into a decimal figure to satisfy the CAOs.

Leadie, yeah, ok. Are suggesting that the ops manual would be accepted even if CASA did not consider the method an acceptable means of complying with the rules? Its a pretty major turboprop operator I'm talking about here.

How frikkin' hard can it be to note the time when you release and set the brakes at the beginning and end of the flight.

Oh wait, I get it. the new generation of pilots is unable to subtract 10:58 from 12:37, is that it?

:ugh:

Not necessarily, Peter...
I was all for using clock time for logging my MR and Log times, but in my current company this is frowned upon - apparently last time CASA came for an audit they were astounded some people were taking 0.3 to taxi. So the FOI suggested we use MR time + 0.1 for each landing.

Great consistency with the letter of the law there... :hmm:

It's written in our ops manual +0.1 Vfr and +0.2 ifr. Ops manual is Casa approved and is a direct relationship with Our actual ops so good enough for me. Even then 0.1 is freakin quick even if you take off from a taxi way.

From post #21


Nothing so sinister I assure you. Quite the contrary in fact. Nor was I trying to open a debate about 'rules of thumb'. And as far as I am aware my log book reflects time logged strictly in accordance with the CAOs and CARs and I am happy to have it audited at any time.

My main aim in posting was to get answers to the following questions:

1) If you are made aware that someone is currently, or has in the past been exaggerating flight time in their log book what are your legal obligations?

2) Are there any implications for an organizations Chief Pilot if they are aware that a pilot employed in their organization has inflated flight time in the past? If they continue to do so while employed by the organization as a pilot?

3) What are the insurance implications for the organization if they allow that pilot to use their aircraft, knowing that there may be false or inflated flight time?

4)Would you employ a pilot if you had suspicions about the accuracy of their log book? Does this reflect on their general integrity, would this person be a risk of breaches of professionalism in other aspects of their flying, or is it a common enough occurance to be allowable under some circumstances with careful monitoring?

I'd love to get your opinions on those questions.
Thanks,

Spotted Dog

glekichi
Ah, yeah fair call mate - that was a bit robust! I was feeling a bit sporty when I wrote it!! (It does however reflect my personal opinion, and we know about opinions, don't we?!)

Can I retract that? And more correctly, redirect it to the knob :} who wrote it in your Ops Manual?! And the CASA knob :ok: who "approved" it?!!!

And it touches on another point, of the "relevance" of Ops Manuals in many instances, I reckon. They should be for guidance on company policy, and "expanding" on compliance issues. Too often they are written by twiddlers who want to put exactly this sort of dribble in 'em. They should never be at odds with published regulations!!

Where Ops Manuals and Regs conflict, guess which one wins? Why do these sorts of statements exist in Ops Manuals? Poor authoring in the first place, and poor vetting during the "approval" process!

Just my opinion :O

CR

My 2 cents: all these people that are claiming more hours then what they are actually doing. You are cheating yourselves as you are doing this to get into somthing bigger and better i am guessing. Why are you in such a rush???? Enjoy the bug smashers and the your career to the airlines/the top. Personally i enjoy flying and they only let me do 900hrs a year so i am not going to log one second over what i actually am allowed to do otherwise i would be sitting on the ground for a few weeks.

Log book hours are in my opinion over rated. Why would you really bother fudging hours?? I once conducted an AFR on a bloke with more than 5000 logged hours, only to find he had became lost on a 50nm navex, although he absolutely GREASED them on every landing. When i quizzed him during the debrief he advised me that nearly every one of those hours were logged in a glider tug!! So to me personally hours logged don't mean much, you can tell before the guy (or gal) even fires the thing up whether he can fly an aircraft, just in the way they handle and prepare themselves in the cockpit.

glekichi,

Are you serious???? Or just extracting the Michael????

Read what Tailwheel has said, go back and read the exact legislative references, look it up on the ComLaw web site (the reference source for lawyers and judges, the people who are going to convict you if you don't do what the law says).

And, as I have said time and again, and as an increasing number of pilots and LAMEs have found out the hard way, a criminal charge (for US it doesn't even have to be a conviction) or conviction for any aviation related offence will see you barred from many countries. This can be professionally career limiting, who wants to hire a pilot that can't fly outside Australia, as well as a personal embarrassment.

As has been said, time and again, both "flight time" and "air time" are defined in the Civil Aviation Act 1988 and Civil Aviation Regulations. So, quote Tailwheel as the genius.

Tootle pip!!

PS: As been said, time and again, CASA DO NOT APPROVE Operations Manuals, they "accept" same, and legally there is a world of difference.
Just because there is garbage in the manual for a kero burner makes not the slightest difference, garbage is garbage, and does not amend the law.

That THE LAW is THE LAW seems to be a concept beyond the understanding of far to many who post on pprune.

jus publicum privatorum pactis mutari non potest
public law cannot be changed by the agreements of private individuals

Is the engine hour Hobbs meter a suitable time reference for the log book?

LS, I have checked against all the documents you have suggested and still cannot find a reference to say that one must start a stopwatch at the start of taxiing before a flight and stop said stopwatch as soon as taxiing has finished post flight.

What I can find, is that the flight time, which includes taxi time, must be recorded. I can see nothing whatsoever to suggest that the method used by my company is in conflict with this rule, nor have I seen or heard of any indication from CASA that this is not an acceptable means of complying with the rule.

We are logging flight time in a method that is proven to be both reliable and accurate.

You sound like exactly the kind of person that gives CASA a bad name. You have read something into a law that is simply not there and are now running around trying to force that interpretation onto others using scare tactics about prosecution and shouting about how people's careers will be ended.

How hard is it to just note the time when you start moving, and the time when you stop moving???:ugh::ugh: