Fake instrument flight time logged
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Fake instrument flight time logged
Question: Perusal of a log book of a pilot with a N.T based turbo-prop operator revealed a fixed figure of 0.2 instrument flight time for every trip. The log book showed over 500 hours of simulated instrument flight time. The pilot claimed it was company policy (published in the operations manual) for each crew member to log 0.2 instrument time on every flight even if CAVOK in order to meet IFR currency requirements. This time was also logged in daily flight sheets for audit purposes. As CASA presumably "approve" company operations manuals, does this mean there is a tacit acceptance by CASA that instrument flight time can be logged in a two pilot crew, by both pilots at the same time regardless of weather conditions?
I recall that several years back a Virgin Blue captain told his first officer at the end of their last flight that day to "put me down for an hour's instrument flight time" in the daily times sheet so that official records would be kept up to date re currency. The whole day was flown in CAVOK.
As logging of instrument flight time is a matter of honesty, rather than an audit trail to satisfy CASA legal requirements, it doesn't say much for the companies that encourge such dishonest practices...
I recall that several years back a Virgin Blue captain told his first officer at the end of their last flight that day to "put me down for an hour's instrument flight time" in the daily times sheet so that official records would be kept up to date re currency. The whole day was flown in CAVOK.
As logging of instrument flight time is a matter of honesty, rather than an audit trail to satisfy CASA legal requirements, it doesn't say much for the companies that encourge such dishonest practices...
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Tee Emm
I realise that in GA that IF time really only happens in IMC. In fact I remember being criticised for having less than 1% of my total experience logged as IF. There just isn't enough clouds when your flying C210's about the top end.
However; it is very dangerous and almost impossible to fly a jet or turboprop for that matter, professionally without flying for the majority on instruments for both departure and arrival. Metro pilot's (no auto-pilot) should be logging instrument time form wheels up to touchdown. All the simulator training teaches you is to fly Power + Attitude = Performance.
If CASA cannot realise the truth that it is irrelevant if there is cloud or moon shine outside, then they really are the bunch of amateurs that the majority of professionals in and out of Australia have suspected.
Logging instrument time is a great tool for maintaining a level of training, but once out on the line and operating to your company's SOP's it achieve's nothing more than a box ticking nuisance.
Leatherdog.
I realise that in GA that IF time really only happens in IMC. In fact I remember being criticised for having less than 1% of my total experience logged as IF. There just isn't enough clouds when your flying C210's about the top end.
However; it is very dangerous and almost impossible to fly a jet or turboprop for that matter, professionally without flying for the majority on instruments for both departure and arrival. Metro pilot's (no auto-pilot) should be logging instrument time form wheels up to touchdown. All the simulator training teaches you is to fly Power + Attitude = Performance.
If CASA cannot realise the truth that it is irrelevant if there is cloud or moon shine outside, then they really are the bunch of amateurs that the majority of professionals in and out of Australia have suspected.
Logging instrument time is a great tool for maintaining a level of training, but once out on the line and operating to your company's SOP's it achieve's nothing more than a box ticking nuisance.
Leatherdog.
However; it is very dangerous and almost impossible to fly a jet or turboprop for that matter, professionally without flying for the majority on instruments for both departure and arrival.
Leatherdog,
That's a very interesting concept. However I can quite happily fly a variety of turbo-prop aircraft by looking outside when I'm not in cloud. It is not by SOLE REFERENCE TO INSTRUMENTS when you can see the horizon because you're not in cloud.
This concept sounds like a rort.
morno
That's a very interesting concept. However I can quite happily fly a variety of turbo-prop aircraft by looking outside when I'm not in cloud. It is not by SOLE REFERENCE TO INSTRUMENTS when you can see the horizon because you're not in cloud.
This concept sounds like a rort.
morno
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Flight under the Instrument Flight Rules is not just about flying an attitude and heading, SIDS, STARS and procedural rules require constant attention to the task at hand.
I think folk are confusing IFR flight with flight in IMC.
I think folk are confusing IFR flight with flight in IMC.
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Straight from CASA
"All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach. "
You can't count IFR fllight unless in IMC in the instrument flight column. Simple really. If everyone follows the rules then we all know what to expect from a given amount of Instrument time in the log book. I know its not prefect but at least its a standard.
Cheers
"All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach. "
You can't count IFR fllight unless in IMC in the instrument flight column. Simple really. If everyone follows the rules then we all know what to expect from a given amount of Instrument time in the log book. I know its not prefect but at least its a standard.
Cheers
In my day I only logged IF time when I was hand flying by instruments (VMC or IMC) or doing a coupled inst app and had just short of 10 percent of my total time.
Irrespective of the total instrument time someone has logged.... hand flying on instruments and operating an a/c at the same time is not something you can bullsh..t your way through.
Emeritus.
Irrespective of the total instrument time someone has logged.... hand flying on instruments and operating an a/c at the same time is not something you can bullsh..t your way through.
Emeritus.
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it achieve's nothing more than a box ticking nuisance.
On another note, my C.P. from GA days said if your flying night VFR on a moonless night and therefore no horizon, you are flying on instruments so it can be logged as IF.
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I would argue that IMC, is when you are in anything less than VMC, that would include being less than the specified distance (vertical/horizontal) from cloud! You don't actually have to be in cloud, just in IMC (ie: less than VMC).
Seriously though I would expect most pilots to have more IFR time than what is shown in their log books, not less...
Seriously though I would expect most pilots to have more IFR time than what is shown in their log books, not less...
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Surely you don't have to be in IMC to count instrument time?
What about all those lowly PPL's out there who logged 2 hours instrument time in their 172 in VMC under the hood?
Is being under the hood in a Metro for example instrument time in VMC?
What about all those lowly PPL's out there who logged 2 hours instrument time in their 172 in VMC under the hood?
Is being under the hood in a Metro for example instrument time in VMC?
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This has been done to death every year, and unless you are in cloud you cannot log IF no matter how dark it is outside.
Surely you don't have to be in IMC to count instrument time?
What about all those lowly PPL's out there who logged 2 hours instrument time in their 172 in VMC under the hood?
What about all those lowly PPL's out there who logged 2 hours instrument time in their 172 in VMC under the hood?
In actual or simulated instrument conditions
In addition to the above comments...how about a clear night with little to no ambient light out in the middle of nowhere. I know in such conditions I am flying by sole reference to instruments! Not instrument flight....come on!
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Yes this gets done to death every year.
YH XXX my understanding is you can log simulated time for two crew operations using an IF hood.
I disagree that this is box ticking exercise. If you don't flying in cloud for months at a time you still need to meet the recency requirements in CAO 40.2.1 PARA 11. If you're flying SID'S STARS etc in an FMS equiped airliner you should be covered under the cyclic training and proficiency program of your airline. If you're in GA and don't have access to a simulator your company should provide you with dual or ICUS under the hood every 90 days. This is an overhead but anything less constitutes a dodgy operation that CASA should investigate.
Agree that pitch black nights and sole reference to instruments are a possible exception but it's the approach phase that really counts and even on a pitch black night you have visual references in the circling area.
YH XXX my understanding is you can log simulated time for two crew operations using an IF hood.
I disagree that this is box ticking exercise. If you don't flying in cloud for months at a time you still need to meet the recency requirements in CAO 40.2.1 PARA 11. If you're flying SID'S STARS etc in an FMS equiped airliner you should be covered under the cyclic training and proficiency program of your airline. If you're in GA and don't have access to a simulator your company should provide you with dual or ICUS under the hood every 90 days. This is an overhead but anything less constitutes a dodgy operation that CASA should investigate.
Agree that pitch black nights and sole reference to instruments are a possible exception but it's the approach phase that really counts and even on a pitch black night you have visual references in the circling area.
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In addition to the above comments...how about a clear night with little to no ambient light out in the middle of nowhere. I know in such conditions I am flying by sole reference to instruments! Not instrument flight....come on!
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Metro pilot's (no auto-pilot) should be logging instrument time form wheels up to touchdown.
... unless you are in cloud you cannot log IF ...
... how about a clear night with little to no ambient light out in the middle of nowhere. I know in such conditions I am flying by sole reference to instruments!
Lets see departing Tindal, Alice Springs or Groote Eylandt at night time in a Dash8, Metro, B200 or a B58 and you rotate go onto instruments, do you really look out the window and see if you are in cloud? On a dark night with no visual horizon you would be pretty brave to be looking outside, i would rather have the head in the cockpit making sure that that the aeroplane was on track and at the right attitude.
Where do you guys come up with this crapp about so many I/F hours as a portion of your total time? Flying around the NT in the dry season probably wont log you much real I/F time, so experts how do we get the 3 hours instrument time in 90 days?
Perhaps the PPrune experts could conduct a poll and tell us many instrument hours we should have in our log books? Any pilot with an extra I/F time could be asked why they have logged extra? Likewise what them big bad/legendary GA Chief Pilots will accept as proper instrument time?
Where do you guys come up with this crapp about so many I/F hours as a portion of your total time? Flying around the NT in the dry season probably wont log you much real I/F time, so experts how do we get the 3 hours instrument time in 90 days?
Perhaps the PPrune experts could conduct a poll and tell us many instrument hours we should have in our log books? Any pilot with an extra I/F time could be asked why they have logged extra? Likewise what them big bad/legendary GA Chief Pilots will accept as proper instrument time?
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"how do we get the 3 hours instrument time in 90 days?"
You don't need to if you complete one hour dual simulated, or one hour ICUS simulated, or an hour in an approved simulator. Not hard really, all in the CAO.
No one is saying that you should look outside for attitude reference at night, just that this does not count as instrument time. Deal with it or lobby CASA to get the rule changed.
I think FGD135 might be on a reasonable track in that if you can't see that you are VMC then your not.
You don't need to if you complete one hour dual simulated, or one hour ICUS simulated, or an hour in an approved simulator. Not hard really, all in the CAO.
No one is saying that you should look outside for attitude reference at night, just that this does not count as instrument time. Deal with it or lobby CASA to get the rule changed.
I think FGD135 might be on a reasonable track in that if you can't see that you are VMC then your not.