Log Book Forgery
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Log Book Forgery
Goodbye licence and career if you have!
Besides the usual ramp checks currently very active around Cairns, Torres Straights, and Darwin, CASA have also started to audit pilot's logbooks. Experienced it myself on Wed. There will be an article in the Sep-Oct issue of 'Flight Safety Australia' which you all should be getting.
CASA inspector turns up to Operators base and issues notice for x number of logbooks to be available the following day for inspection. They won't remove the logbook from the premises but will scan and copy a whole heap of pages. I was told that they were looking at types flown, dates, and rego and doing crossreference checks with their records.
I'm not exactly sure of the process afterwards, but I do know that 3 of our charter pilots had their licence revoked from CASA and fired from work yesterday.
Please tell if you know more.
Besides the usual ramp checks currently very active around Cairns, Torres Straights, and Darwin, CASA have also started to audit pilot's logbooks. Experienced it myself on Wed. There will be an article in the Sep-Oct issue of 'Flight Safety Australia' which you all should be getting.
CASA inspector turns up to Operators base and issues notice for x number of logbooks to be available the following day for inspection. They won't remove the logbook from the premises but will scan and copy a whole heap of pages. I was told that they were looking at types flown, dates, and rego and doing crossreference checks with their records.
I'm not exactly sure of the process afterwards, but I do know that 3 of our charter pilots had their licence revoked from CASA and fired from work yesterday.
Please tell if you know more.
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Good to see CASA doing their job. If you are doing the right thing you have nothing to worry about. Incidently, haven't see any FOI's in the Torres Straits for over 9 months.
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but I do know that 3 of our charter pilots had their licence revoked from CASA and fired from work yesterday
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The world at large does a much better job of verifying and policing pilot logbooks than the US, but years ago one of the defining points early in one's career was to have obtained the ATP written release, in the USA. This was a FAA release that authorized the holder to go take the written exam. The reason it had some significance then was that the FAA audited the logbook before issuing the authorization, including calling owners or operators of aircraft in the book to verify specific flights at random.
I've done government checkrides that involved over three hours of logbook scrutiny. Today, however, in the US, very few every get their logbooks looked over. For the most part, the majority of the pilots I know are honerable and don't falsify their logs, but I've known a few who have.
I had an assistant chief pilot years ago who was a smooth talker, but whom I suspected had falsified much of his experience. Imagine my surprise when I happened to be across town one day, and wandered into a FBO. There on the wall was a list of students who had graduated, with a picture of him, missing his shirt tail...a year or so before. He had zero experience, he'd lied about everything.
Recently I worked with an individual whom I was sure had falsified his experience. He was inept, knew so little I suspected he'd either been a very poor student pilot or still was one, and here he was going through screening for a job. He claimed airline experience, he claimed flight instruction experience, and claimed to have instructed for some fairly prestigious names CAE Simuflight, Flight Safety International, etc). After some checking, we soon learned he'd not flown for the airline or the instruction facilities; he'd lied about everything. It showed in his speech, his knowledge, and his flying.
I think in both those cases, the best thing that could have happened to them was an audit such as the CASA system going on now. It would have helped many others who could have potentially been influenced or put at risk by those individuals. I certainly wish the FAA had a similiar practice, in the United States.
I've done government checkrides that involved over three hours of logbook scrutiny. Today, however, in the US, very few every get their logbooks looked over. For the most part, the majority of the pilots I know are honerable and don't falsify their logs, but I've known a few who have.
I had an assistant chief pilot years ago who was a smooth talker, but whom I suspected had falsified much of his experience. Imagine my surprise when I happened to be across town one day, and wandered into a FBO. There on the wall was a list of students who had graduated, with a picture of him, missing his shirt tail...a year or so before. He had zero experience, he'd lied about everything.
Recently I worked with an individual whom I was sure had falsified his experience. He was inept, knew so little I suspected he'd either been a very poor student pilot or still was one, and here he was going through screening for a job. He claimed airline experience, he claimed flight instruction experience, and claimed to have instructed for some fairly prestigious names CAE Simuflight, Flight Safety International, etc). After some checking, we soon learned he'd not flown for the airline or the instruction facilities; he'd lied about everything. It showed in his speech, his knowledge, and his flying.
I think in both those cases, the best thing that could have happened to them was an audit such as the CASA system going on now. It would have helped many others who could have potentially been influenced or put at risk by those individuals. I certainly wish the FAA had a similiar practice, in the United States.
I hope they weasel out just about every one of them... Finally I actually applaud CASA for doing something proactive and relevant to the industry.
I never thought I'd ever actually say appluad and CASA in the same sentence in my lifetime.
Guys/girls who bodge up their logbooks is my biggest pet hate in the industry, especially when you plug away for years and years yourself doing the right thing and ticking the boxes legitimately.
I never thought I'd ever actually say appluad and CASA in the same sentence in my lifetime.
Guys/girls who bodge up their logbooks is my biggest pet hate in the industry, especially when you plug away for years and years yourself doing the right thing and ticking the boxes legitimately.
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Was it part of a routine company audit?
During an audit back in '04 CASA went right through a number of logbooks at the company I was working for. They were quite thorough with cross checking logbook hours against MR entries. While nobody was caught flying any mystery flights, a couple of guys were questioned about some generous allowances for taxi times…
During an audit back in '04 CASA went right through a number of logbooks at the company I was working for. They were quite thorough with cross checking logbook hours against MR entries. While nobody was caught flying any mystery flights, a couple of guys were questioned about some generous allowances for taxi times…
Good on CASA. Logbook fraud is one of my major hates and I'm glad to see that one aviation agency has the required danglies to do something about it. Loss of licence is the correct penalty IMHO. It sounds a bit draconian, but if some one has the audacity to commit fraud to the extent that he is prepared to endanger himself and other people by claiming skills and experience they don't have, it's the correct one.
Other authorities do have safeguards in place. In Italy, every logbook entry has to be countersigned or stamped by the aircraft's operator. The CAA (UK) has been actively checking up on pilots who have been hours building in the US claiming huge numbers of hours in short time periods and have caught a couple of people and a lot of military logbooks are countersigned. In the RAF, we had monthly and yearly summaries, each countersigned by two people.
However, this didn't stop some. I was flying with a UK long haul operation where commands were coming fast and there was a race for guys to get the minimum hours. One ex RAF fast jet pilot applied for a command, but the fact he had more hours than his contemporaries didn't ring true to the company. They got some of his ex colleauges from his old squadron who were with the company to check his logbook and he has fictitious hours.
And even worse, with one of the UK Charter companies, one F/O passed his command. The company asked him to bring his log book in for endorsement. the chief pilot was suprised to see his RAF logbook claimed he was on a squadron with himself at the same time, but the chief pilot didn't remember him. Turns out his whole RAF flying career was a fabrication as he had actually been an Air Traffic Controller! He was prosecuted by the CAA as well as being sacked.
I have heard of pilots bragging about P51 hours in thir logbook (that's Parker 51 and not Mustang!) - they are stupid. If I had one making such a claim, I would have no compuncture about shopping them.
Other authorities do have safeguards in place. In Italy, every logbook entry has to be countersigned or stamped by the aircraft's operator. The CAA (UK) has been actively checking up on pilots who have been hours building in the US claiming huge numbers of hours in short time periods and have caught a couple of people and a lot of military logbooks are countersigned. In the RAF, we had monthly and yearly summaries, each countersigned by two people.
However, this didn't stop some. I was flying with a UK long haul operation where commands were coming fast and there was a race for guys to get the minimum hours. One ex RAF fast jet pilot applied for a command, but the fact he had more hours than his contemporaries didn't ring true to the company. They got some of his ex colleauges from his old squadron who were with the company to check his logbook and he has fictitious hours.
And even worse, with one of the UK Charter companies, one F/O passed his command. The company asked him to bring his log book in for endorsement. the chief pilot was suprised to see his RAF logbook claimed he was on a squadron with himself at the same time, but the chief pilot didn't remember him. Turns out his whole RAF flying career was a fabrication as he had actually been an Air Traffic Controller! He was prosecuted by the CAA as well as being sacked.
I have heard of pilots bragging about P51 hours in thir logbook (that's Parker 51 and not Mustang!) - they are stupid. If I had one making such a claim, I would have no compuncture about shopping them.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 6th Jun 2009 at 04:47.
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What on earth were they forging? Hours on the aircraft that they had been flying? Or hours on an aircraft type they hadn't been flying?
If they forged hours on an aircraft type that they had never flown, then I guess CASA would be able to find this out easily. What about logging flights on a company aircraft that you never did? Would'nt CASA just obtain a copy of the MR, and then add a bit more on for taxi?
And how many hours are we talking here? 1? 5? 100? 500?
Idiots!
If they forged hours on an aircraft type that they had never flown, then I guess CASA would be able to find this out easily. What about logging flights on a company aircraft that you never did? Would'nt CASA just obtain a copy of the MR, and then add a bit more on for taxi?
And how many hours are we talking here? 1? 5? 100? 500?
Idiots!
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I've got addition errors all over the show in mine eeeeek!
Accuracy I think they will find a large pool of people with errors.
Forgery well why would you?
I'm sure it's deliberate fraud. As for accuracy, any pilot with more than a few hundred hours is going to have errors. I once started putting all my hours onto a modified Excell spreadsheet. I stopped when I realised after a couple of thousand hours entered that I was quite a few hours adrift. Underclaimed though!
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They want to take a look at many of the jet operators, as many "young-uns" with S.J.S have got through very quickly, due to Log Book Audits not having been done when a candidate is interviewed, for many years!
An ex friend of mine while he was doing his flying training back in the early '90's used to bludge free rides in back of aircrafts whenever they went cross country navs. After he would log the entire flight in his logbook as PIC. He would even log the hours while a passenger on a domestic flight on his holidays.
Today he is a captain of an A320.
I wonder how many more like him out there.
Today he is a captain of an A320.
I wonder how many more like him out there.
sms777
unfortunately it's more common than you think. I know someone who bought an aircraft, and then somehow magically had 1000 hours extra in their pilots logbook using that aircraft's rego, however when the same machine was onsold sometime shortly after, the M/R only had about 250 hours or so on it.
the worst part about the whole story, the company that then employed knew about it, but still put them on purely because there was no-one else about at the time that ticked the right boxes hourswise on type as far as the contract they had required.
Who would you say is worse, the guy for bodging his logbook, or the company that knowingly turned the blind eye to it?
Pity that the said person is flying overseas now, I would've loved to have seen CASA check out their logbook.
unfortunately it's more common than you think. I know someone who bought an aircraft, and then somehow magically had 1000 hours extra in their pilots logbook using that aircraft's rego, however when the same machine was onsold sometime shortly after, the M/R only had about 250 hours or so on it.
the worst part about the whole story, the company that then employed knew about it, but still put them on purely because there was no-one else about at the time that ticked the right boxes hourswise on type as far as the contract they had required.
Who would you say is worse, the guy for bodging his logbook, or the company that knowingly turned the blind eye to it?
Pity that the said person is flying overseas now, I would've loved to have seen CASA check out their logbook.
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Accuracy I think they will find a large pool of people with errors.
But if all, or most, of the errors have the effect of increasing the total, then these errors will not, of course, be seen as errors at all ...
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Mr.Hat,
We were told they are targetting forgery. I had a discrepancy of 7.5 hrs and could justify the error. This was OK with the inspector.
Eeper,
"What on earth were they forging? Hours on the aircraft that they had been flying? Or hours on an aircraft type they hadn't been flying?"
One of the young chaps claimed 250 hrs command spread over a 3 month period on JWX a Duchess. Apparently it was a Sydney based aircraft online with one of the flying schools. He did this to get some multi time and bring his total hours to 1000 hours as required by the operator at the time to secure a job.
The problem was JWX was written off in a fatal crash in Sydney, some 12 months prior to what he claimed in his log book! The rego VH-JWX was then assigned to a helicopter. CASA knew JWX at the time was in fact a helicopter not a Duchess.
We were told they are targetting forgery. I had a discrepancy of 7.5 hrs and could justify the error. This was OK with the inspector.
Eeper,
"What on earth were they forging? Hours on the aircraft that they had been flying? Or hours on an aircraft type they hadn't been flying?"
One of the young chaps claimed 250 hrs command spread over a 3 month period on JWX a Duchess. Apparently it was a Sydney based aircraft online with one of the flying schools. He did this to get some multi time and bring his total hours to 1000 hours as required by the operator at the time to secure a job.
The problem was JWX was written off in a fatal crash in Sydney, some 12 months prior to what he claimed in his log book! The rego VH-JWX was then assigned to a helicopter. CASA knew JWX at the time was in fact a helicopter not a Duchess.