while Rome burns
We wargame so much stuff, but it seems no one saw this coming (except EVERYONE at the end of their Rosos) and by the time they get around to doing anything, those that they had a chance to keep will already be gone or so far down the planning track it will be too late to turn them around (it is for me).
The government even gave defence money (and direction) for retention. Army and Navy reacted, RAAF didn't.
Its all happened before but those left had far more hours than now. Hopefully their are better systems in place now but the past has shown when there is such a loss of guys at the FLTLT/SQNLDR level bad things happen.
I'm sure however there is great concern to make sure all the ground jobs are full!!!!

The strong rumours I was hearing a month or so ago had an excessive commitment for a paltry amount of money. Wouldn't make an iota of difference to anyone who was inclined to leave in the first place. Would be nice for those who were going to stay anyway, as these things always are.

Then again, who is that? The only people I know who intend to stay for any length of time are already spec aircrew.

pay and conditions
 

Space, you seem to understand the jargon so can I ask, what is the sort of money that a senior FLTLT QFI or Junior SQNLDR could expect to be on in the RAAF now. Trya nd give a best guess of the overall package if you are able, any lurks - other than cheap beer at mess...

Am ex Raaf and thinking about coming back in so want to see what they are offering.... not doing it for the money .... just need socks and undies.

thanks

Sorry mate I am not Space but I will throw a figure out there.
From what I know about what I am paid and what my mates are getting, a senior FLTLT will crack 6 figs sometime in the last few years of ROSO.

Most guys at end of ROSO are on about 110K.

I am not even going to try and speculate about how much medical and all that stuff is worth. Housing allowances are probably worth about 10-15K pre-tax per year.

Not going to do the job of Recruiting, but you can try this link to run 'Compare Your Package' which was designed to encourage ADF folks to stay: http://www.defence.gov.au/cyp/
Some question about some of the assumptions like the value of housing etc.
Heard the potential bonus would be focussed on just those with a post graduate qual (QFI, FCI, TP). Anyone heard similar?

Max FLTLT Pay, on Max flying pay (+10yrs post wings)=$114,000.

Add around $10,000 in rent savings
$1000 in Medical

And about $20,000 a year for being in a sandpit for 2-4 months.

At least you'd be well prepared for the sand pit Woodja!

If you want to get super clever about remuneration comparison, you take into account the superannuation. Believe it of not, the ADF super is not too bad.

Since I'm not super clever, I did not include it in my comparison. I worked out that a maxed out (10+ year) SQNLDR who is flying is worth about 135-145K. This includes housing benefits, health insurance and medical.

As for a 'retention benefit'.....If it's going to happen, I can't help but think it is too little, too late.

I also think that the RAAF can be grateful that there are some pilots out there who have not (at this time) got their ducks lined up to have their ATPL sorted....

You're probably right PAF.

I wasn't trying to say it was a definitive decision make/break aspect (REF: superannuation). I don't know enough about it and therefore I won't comment- employer vs employer vs performance etc etc. I only mentioned it because it may be a consideration for some, depending on personal circumstances.

However it is something I (personally) would look into before making a big career change after a significant period of time in one organisation, perhaps maybe only to confirm I wasted my time looking into it. :)

Albert Einstein no doubt said a whole bunch of other stuff for a reason too....just gotta work out the reason. ;)

RAAF retention
 

Its been interesting to see this thread develop over the last few months. I think if you're waiting for a bonus, you're dreaming. I have been privvy to a very high level discussion which moved along the lines of:

"Do we really need that many QFI's in Sqn XX?"; and "There needs to be a more realistic appraisal of the actual QFI numbers we need". The clear implication was we have enough instructors.:confused:

Another priceless comment was:

"Let's see if there are any more efficiencies to be gained from the current system." :DWell there you go. Problem solved folks.

I am also aware that within the next couple of years Air Force will be called upon to significantly increase their pilot output. The numbers they are talking about (and it's a lot more!) are simply unachievable with current staffing levels.

The one thing I'm certain about is the system will resist with all its might in paying more money to what are perceived as 'greedy' pilots. Sadly this attitude is displayed from the top down. But there are some pilots who work a lot harder, and contribute more than others. PG quals (QFI, FCI..etc) should be recognised in monetary terms.

There are some simple measures the RAAF could take to retain people without breaking the bank. I have enjoyed the RAAF immensely, but I'm looking at getting out because my wife and I are fed up with moving. If you've ever had to up stakes with young kids you'll know what I mean.:{

I was a very experienced instructor on an operational type, and naively assumed the system would look after me. Well...not so, and after much futile screaming and shouting was shunted on to a most undesired location, simply because it was "time for me to career broaden."

What does not compute with the hierarchy is that most pilots do not want to be CO's or higher. If you leave us in one location, many of us will be happy to keep training the young guys coming through. :ugh:

Dostrum - nice post for first time pruner.

Like you and many others I am looking at leaving the RAAF soon. Like you I am a senior QFI having had various training management roles, and have been party to meetings various about QFI shortages etc. I am convinced we are on the verge of major capability shortfalls by the ignorance and inaction of our senior leadership, and our training system will suffer over the next years from lack of experienced FCI/QFIs. Action is needed now to support these guys so they stay on, and to train their own replacements too. The 10 year ROSO will hold some, but resignations are now also starting to flow into DP from ALG/ACG and this will build to a constant flow over some years unless something is done now that holds the supervisory level together.

Personally, my family and I would be significantly better off financially by staying in the RAAF until I reach age 55 on my 10+year flying pay and tapping more of the Mil super scheme (which is exceptionally generous if you stay in long term). We would be financially very happy, and able to retire early. So why not stay on? It has been a deep issue for me because I actually love the spirit of working in the Service and the dedication of its good people.

The main reason is that our family’s future is continuously put at risk by a system that provides no long term plan for us. If we had a long-term future career path (not just job-shifting) that was negotiated jointly with DP, we could stay. But we are continuously put at risk to move to any job and any location, re-setup our lives and go an do whatever. DP staff have tried to address issues like this, and we have stayed on because of good people there to look after us – but that is the people, not policy. Also recently I see little leadership and a lot of pep talk from the very top, and little real decision-making is evident. There is a lack of courage to call shots, do what is right despite the penalty, or take action that disrupts their own careers. Without good leadership, people will not trust their futures to the organisation. Unit commanders are bound up in contracts and administration processes that restricts them from full command. There are messages like “we are a RAAF family”, but I know trainers that are stressed out with the rate of effort in training, suffering stress, and units calling out for more resources to keep up the training effort as dictated, but still the SLT does not act. Arrogance is mixed with silence. I also worry about the accidents of the past that directly related to corporate knowledge decay in training (like B707), and hope our key people can hold it together while the supervision shrinks away. And I worry that once the key trainers leave, we have few ways to regenerate the capability, since the RAAF is much smaller than in the past, is more stretched and fragile. There is no ‘fat’ left.

So now in my middle ages, an opportunity has come up to work for a LCC, on much less salary than I am on now, and will require me to work years longer before we can retire. But by leaving the RAAF we can have the location my family wants, potential fast career progression during worldwide shortage of experience (that appears unprecedented and long term), and the full control of our destiny. My wife will not need to give up the job she struggled to get, my kids education and friendships not be disrupted, and despite expecting to work harder with long hours with a LCC, I won’t feel at all compelled to be at work unless I am flying. Unless the world falls over. So be it:p

Roller,

If you fail to plan, plan to fail. I think that sums up the RAAF that I have observed in my time in the service and out. The sheer pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face is characteristic of senior management. Luckily the RAAF survived '87/88 and most of the nineties despite some shocking accidents and a widespread view that 'we've never seen such low levels of experience'. The RAAF has never had a recruiting or training problem - its always been RETENTION. Neither recruiting nor training are solutions.

Which brings me to a question - in your opinion would civilanisation of the Training Command QFI workforce solve this twin experience/retention problem?

One of the other major problems I see is that the RAAF relies on turnover. Not everyone wants to stay in the same job, same location - purely because not all jobs/locations are desirable. Therein lies the issue - fill the slots of all the desirable jobs, keep those guys in there until they retire and there's then only the undesirable jobs left for anyone else. How is that going to work?

It's no different to other places being discussed around here, they need to stop treating it like a business enterprise and treat it for what it is...unique; with unique requirements. If they want to make it a business form a union :}

CS,

I think we're effectively going down that road now with the plan for reservist/ex-senior officers manning the FTS - understand it works in the RAF. The big argument for not civilianising was always that BFTS/2FTS were the places to 'grow' the SQN QFIs of the future. If you purely civilianise then how does that happen? BAES have been after it for years. The likes of Milskill are being considered at a high level to do it. Not sure how we could fully civilianise and yet still put QFIs into OCUs/SQNs. Partialy civilianise - why not?

Certainly the view in the SLT is that we should blur the line between reservists and PAF. If you leave the PAF but become a reservist then the RAAF have retained you. This makes quite a lot of sense - until we go to war of course!

Roller Merlin,

not in any way disagreeing or arguing with what you say, but;

it ain't all roses and its getting worse in the airlines - the pilot shortage may be rearing its head but the one thing that wont change is the work rate in the airlines - they are squeezing every last drop out of the crew in this day and age. Domestic flying in Qantas is TIRING, and the LC carriers are worse. What am I saying; in 2007 the airlines aren't necessarily the lifestyle option they sometimes appear.

You will rarely (never?) be home for for Christmas etc, probably miss most birthdays etc etc. For a experienced RAAF pilot there ain't much difference in quality of the job between left and right; the only thing going for it is the money! Which isn't a lot in the LCC's!


I often saw us being our own worst enemies when I was in; we would get the job done and screw the workload. Did they leadership always know how hard we were working?? As a SQN exec its often hard to rein in the boys sometimes!!

For the same reasons as RM, I too have left(leaving) for a LCC....or is that NWC now?
Anyway I digress.
I love the Airforce, what it does and (most) of the people in it. So much so in a lot of ways I have been looking for an excuse to stay.
But I have to agree with some of the new points raised here. I don't believe those who make the d's give a toss at the loss rate now (they probably will soon but as before it will be too late). Why?
Well a prime example at the moment is the EOIs for pilots that have been recently released for the AEW&C and C17 QFI. Both designed to exclude people at the end of ROSO. Either of these jobs would be enough to make me stay but I and anyone else at end of ROSO is excluded. I'm guessing becuase they have plenty of ground jobs for the likes of me to fill. I'm not saying I'd get the job at all, however apparently I'm too experienced now to even put my hat in the ring.
As for QFIs the civiy/reserve thing might work for BFTS but guys love going back to 2FTS for pilots course without the stess. Its actually a 2 year move/posting that helps retention and becoming a QFI does a lot of good for a trash haulers skills. If they took that posting away it would only result in having lots of FLTLTs for ground jobs!

Snoozer: I believe 2FTS has potential for 3-5 contracted QFIs, in addition the few Reserve guys. These ‘greybeards’ can hold the standards and help mentor the newbies during high staff turnover. Yes it does work for the RAF. Yes there will be enough space left for the newbie’s to develop and return to the FEGs as rounded instructors. It will cost more money.

BFTS is a different equation. The ex-mil QFIs interested in civie jobs mainly want lifestyle and location. Hence 2FTS - they like, BFTS- they don’t. There are NO ex-mil QFIs currently in Saudi or elsewhere on the books of recruiting companies that are interested in going to Tamworth. BAe management has learned that to get new “non-ex-mil” civie instructors up to standards across the range of training takes at least 3-6 months and costs them heaps in internal training, and then these guys can leave at any time. And BAe pay much less than a LCC. Meanwhile the small number of mil QFIs carry the extra load, with little surge capacity. Duhh!. This is the inflexible arrangement we (ADF) contracted into. And BFTS is where the big student numbers will arrive next year – beyond current capacity. Fixing this will cost the ADF lots and lots more money.

Marg: Undesirable but skilled jobs need to be compensated for appropriately, then there will always be takers. But this will cost the ADF more money.

ftrplt: I know a LCC will be tiring, and you are spot on - the grass is brown on both sides of the fence, and I have played there before too. But the timing seems right, and with demand outstripping supply of pilots over the next 10 years, airline T&C will need to adjust to market demands over time. (so I hope!) Just look at the numbers over the next few years: Emirates +500, Etihad +350, VB +200 ish, JQ +200 ish, Cathay +lots. China and India middle classes booming and wanting to fly. Yes airlines will do everything to keep the labour force in check, but at some point bettering the T&C for pilots will become more cost effective than parking airframes whilst paying their leases. Evidence this “new” paradigm is evolving now can be seen at Rex, Skippers and NJS – increasing T&C for pilots (ie: for captains, and thus FOs) will eventually save airlines in their bottom line!

Roller,

Airlines arent all what those from the sheltered work shop (QF) say they are.I am sure even a herc pilots job would be more exciting!!! There is a lot of pressure to leave and join an airline, but not many facts that now state why you should. In the 80s and early 90s when RAAF pay was low and airline pay was high, and DFRDB was the retriement option, it was a no brainer. But times have changed.

With MSBS now including your flight pay, you have one of the best retirement funds around.You really dont need to save for retirement, apart from owning ya house. Once you leave, the major part of your MSBS grows at CPI (factored of course). It goes nowhere. It will take you years to catch up on what you have lost if you go onto a higher pay, you never catch up if you go onto the same or lower pay. You will therefore have to work a lot longer to be able to afford to retire. Might not seem like a biggie now, but give it a few years.

My suggestion would be stay in. Spend ya money on some big toys, ie: the boat, the aeroplane that goes upside down and all the holidays you want. Do Ronnies work Monday to Friday and enjoy your weekends off....(you dont get them on the other side).

A mate described his time flying with an Oz domestic carrier as flying the same hour 900 times per year. I see Tiger is asking the guys to do 1000hrs a year. This is not something to do if you want to live long and prosper!!!

We should have all become plumbers.

Don

Cheer up Don, it's not that bad.:)

From Page 2

785 knots at 2.35 m??? Could only be a Saturn 5 rocket that fell off its stumps.

I left the RAAF because of their utter stupidity. They set out to make everyone so damned dependant on them that they don't want to leave, but it works quite the opposite. That was 20 years ago; may have changed.