oh well, I stand corrected, sounds we really are stuffed!

Guinness? In Saudi? Pull the other one....

The more things change, the more they seem to stay the same. Big wheel keeps on turning...(CCR)

I guess the wheel just turned 180 in a few months! ;)

True, but the thing about wheels is that they keep on turning. It will be interesting to see if the Melchetts seize upon this temporary phenomena and delay or even cancel the proposed pilot retention measures.
Some long term thinking required here, i.e. beyong the next promotion/posting.
Interesting times....................

Í've got faith that Binny will try to see this one through. Unfortunately, I am also sure that this government will be trying to wrench the bucket of money back out of his hands.

Back to square one me thinks......:ugh:

Rumour has it that the deal will be pay group 7 for pilots in non exec tours - remainder to be made up of an allowance to make up non-reduction portion, the latter non-superanuable. Effectively a pay cut. Further retention bonus as promised in Feb - nil.

Rumour is also that the WGCDR currently working on the sustainability project is throwing her hands up as there is nowhere to go with it. Any promises made are now no longer valid.

Guess we should all have got out last year........... Hold the faith, pah.

I can't see things changing for the better for RAAF pilots. Didn't Chairman Rudd cut all services budgets by 10 percent? No doubt any measure will have to be revenue neutral. The question is that if you think RAAF pilots (or some of them) will get more then who will lose the money to pay for it.Moral of story: if given the chance right now EJECT, EJECT, EJECT.
You should have jumped shipped 6 to 12 months ago and rocked up for pocket money ever couple of weeks as a reservist. :E

The Rudd er-less ship
 

I personally thought that the whole ASP (whatever it's called) was a good thing. Only should have been done from the beginning of time!! like any big multi-billion corporation.

but with Rudd at the helm, who knows where it will end up...

We received a brief from the ASP team recently, where they said 'we are going to give you more control over your career..you don't have to be mucked around anymore'.

Just two days later DP rang one of my colleagues and told him there was a short notice, 'must be filled' posting on the cards for the new year. It is now Dec 13...thanks for all the heads up.

This stuff is always going to happen, regardless of good intentions. It has already happened to me. It is possible to keep some people very happy, but you're going to have to screw someone else over to do it.

The longer you stay in, the more chance you have of being:

"That one person who we need to fill this posting..";) If you are smart you need to consider other career options well before you reach end of ROSO, because unless you want to be CAF, you will eventually be used as a gopher doing a staff job in which you have no expertise, in an undesirable location where you live in a sh...t married quarter and your wife and kids are miserable, because they have no friends and they're going to have to repeat the same miserable process of moving in two year's time....

A very similar thing happened to a collegue at my unit. He was told he was going to be posted to a project job for which he has absolutely no relevant experience or interest. When asked where he would go after that job he was told that there would be no guarantees he would return to a flying job.:mad:
Once again my refusal to accept promotion beyond FLTLT has been validated!:hmm:
The ASP team briefed our unit that around mid-2009 RAAF aircrew would be offered the choice to remain flying or go to a "career" stream. However their take on this is that the proportion of flying to career streams would be 20/80, i.e. they only want to accept 20% to stay on as "permanent pilots".
Absolutely flabbergasted!! They just don't bl**dy get it:mad:

I was all for joining up and being a career pilot back in the days when their attrition rate was a lot lower. I was told pretty much the same thing back then.
The flying part of being in the Airforce was a pretty small part of the job, and to remain in as a career involved not enough flying to remain current.
I also looked at it a few years ago when they were begging for pilots....... was told nothing had changed.
Its a shame really, as I would have been quite comfortable driving a hurky around for a career....... even later in life.

The ASP people say that there will be no more irrelevant postings for aircrew. I'm not sure where the magic pudding is that will provide all the extra people to fill the crap jobs that still need filling.

ASP sounds to me to be very much like a "vision statement" - this is the organisation's ambition, and they can therefore say that it's just an isolated case each time you get the inevitable shaft.

What can they do to fix it? Let the upper echelons continue to micromanage, and cut out the 5 layers of management in between that they bypass every time they do. That would both avoid confusion and save a hell of a lot of rubbish jobs while they're at it.

ASP is a complete Pineapple. Someone asked a question of the WGCDR giving the brief recently and he admitted that most people in the room would have no motivation to sign onto the new scheme.

Here is why:

As a FLTLT they rip you from Pay group 10 to pay group 6. That means that with the stroke of a pen you could be signing away around $100,000 from your superannuation.

Secondly he admitted that the new remuneration scheme will SAVE the government $9 million a year. The scheme to retain aircrew involves paying them less over the term of the career.

Thirdly, he stated that the benefit of the project would be realised in 10-20 years. i.e. The benefit comes about with new people forced onto the scheme.

Given that you sign away around $100k from your super and lose around $4,500 a year from your super on the lower paygroup (employer benefit) the only people who would agree to sign up (and agree to never go to Pay Group 10 until GList) would be the retarded.

Absolute pineapple and a waste of time.

The "Specialist Aircrew Scheme" is a complete "smoke and mirrors" job. It means a max of 20% of the guys at the SQN can be involved. So lets assume the scheme is offered next year. The RAAF gives 20% of the guys the jobs. End result? If they don't resign (that's the goal of the scheme) then no-one else can join it until they reach compulsory retirement age! Excellent, no spec aircrew jobs will free up for the next 20-30 years time.

If it wasn't for the fact these geniuses have worked out how to "retain" pilots and save the government $9 million a year I would say the project itself cost Defence more than it will benefit defence.
:D:D:D

Most intelligent people realised this would happen. The criminal act by the project team was to hold "workshops" where they say "everything is on the table". The end result: We'll raid your super to try convince you we are paying you more". Remember, Defence NEVER makes you sign for a pay rise. They make you sign when they will make you worse off due to an Industrial Relations requirement. You sign - you lose. They'll try lure you over with this new component that is variable year to year. Offer a $10,000 increase next year to sign on - it disappears the year after.

To quote one of my full-time mates after the brief:

"Eject, Eject, Eject"

P.S. I heard around the traps one of the guys (from memory ALG?) told his CO he was considering his options outside and they removed him from an upgrade. Best to keep your cards close to your chest. Not sure the effect on reservist pay? Anyone.

It would appear your rumour is spot on the money!!! Total failure of expectation management. Airline Load factors increase 7% over the past twelve months (on radio today) - interesting to see what happens in late 2009 with airline recruitment.

Remember in the ASP brief they were very guarded about the actual figures for the new pay scheme? Well, that's because you would quickly realise you will be no better off if you sign on to this 'career officer stream'. Yes, you might have a nice little 'bonus pay' one year, but then it all goes away because of 'market forecasting'. If this all sounds like smoke and mirrors it is! It has not been designed to give experienced guys more money, but to retain those people who have not even joined yet. The system has also been designed to save the government money. While they may need to pay temporary bonuses to the future crowd, they won't have to pay as much super. What a win for the government!

Any officer aircrew already in the RAAF would be totally mad to sign on to the new scheme, because they will move to pay group 10 regardless of what happens. If you stay as a FLTLT or SQNLDR in the new scheme you don't go any higher than PG8, and all of a sudden your super is starting to look much sicker.

It was all too good to be true. If you are a supervisor, it is essential you tell your junior aircrew not to sign on to the new system. The more people who are duped by the prospect of short term bonuses, then the more money the government will save, and the less super your bograts will get.

The specialist aircrew scheme also seems to be a scorpion with plenty of stings in the tail. You would need to be very careful before signing up for this, because once you're in, you can't get out. If you are a QFI at SRG or ALG then could you really handle another 20 years in the Simulator as a FLTLT? Eventually you become stale and nobody listens to you.

Of course the other thing that might happen is that those wanting to go airlines go spec aircrew, fly straight for 4 - 5 years to build hours and leave. Therefore doing nothing for the retention of experience.

So nothing much has changed in the 4.5 years since I left?:rolleyes:

Having not left long ago, I have watched this thread pretty intently, looking for a reason to not leave/return. The formula is becoming pretty simple for blokes who want to fly long term - the diversity of military flying and squadron life vs POTENTIAL (economy and industry trends considered) extra pay minus the predictability of airline flying. $100000 p.a. on PG6 vs Airlines? I think you could say, given historical trends, the RAAF won't ever change its personnel management system so it is becoming a simple question. A very personal question which can only be answered by individuals. There will never be a system which will please everybody.

(I would have rather stayed but the family limitations and bureacracy wore me down in the end for the record.)

I beg to differ Toppie. They have changed things. They are going to reduce the pay packet. You're right. You can't make everyone happy - I know this bloke was pretty happy with the ASP brief (anyone wanna join him in signing on? (pretty sure I saw him at Edinburgh. From memory he was from 75SQN doing his AVMED refresher):
http://citizenx.org/wp-content/retard.jpg

Political gain
 

What I find interesting is that this whole scheme will cost Government less. Hence the reason all the 2 stars signed off on it....

as long as their promotion is assured, then who cares about the line drivers.

Vote with your feet...

Happy new year to you, too.....:)

ruprecht.

Any news on the latest? Nothing out of Aircrew Sustainability Project other than reducing remuneration for pilots?

Chatting to guy at Williamtown O's mess today - one pilot submitted resignation in last couple of weeks??? Dunno what airline though??

The ASP is a complete joke. If you wish to build hours for an airline then sign onto the Spec Aircrew scheme and leave. If you wish to be a career officer stay away unless you wish to instantly decrease your Super by tens of thousands a year.

ASP = http://assets.sparkpeople.com/assets...icons/e488.gif

With the global financial crisis/tsunami/landslide/recession/depression, maybe we could rename this thread RAAF pilots coming back?:}

To give the junior (PLTOFF-SQNLDR) aircrew control over their career (letting them initiate their own postings, or at least negotiate aggressively on their on behalf when taking ground jobs) would be a quantum leap for RAAF. The current bosses are not still in because they want to change the organisation. They are in for their own agendas. Making such a huge change would only create an environment that would be hard work for them and risky for their careers. Therefore the change will never happen. The scope of the ASP is long term - why would a current 2 star take responsibility for driving through a change when the benefits will be felt long after they have left? Getting to senior rank is about staying safe and avoiding too much controversy, not showing leadership and rocking the boat.

The reality is the RAAF will continue to stuff people around. Retention programs will be introduced one after another when economic conditions are good, on the assupmtion that the organisation can recover a little during times of economic crisis (i.e. now). This means the ASP is now likely to be used to push through changes that suit the RAAF, not members.

If you don't want a life of shunting from posting to posting continuing to fight for diminishing opportunities, then I think out is the only way. Don't get me wrong - I reckon the RAAF offers fantastic opportunities, but they only suit very specific people. (must have a partner who has no interest in building a career, must be happy to have kids go to whatever school/care happens to be available, must not have hobbies/interests that can't be packed into a suitcase, must be willing to live in whatever DHA happens to offer, must be willing to rapidly adapt to all sorts of jobs and act like you care etc. etc.)

What concerns me the most is that I perceived that ASP was to investigate all aspects of aircrew. RAAF has some horrible progression and development problems. Historically someone who has been in for ten years is a senior captain with thousands of hours waiting for promotion. Not so now. Take a peek at RAAF news. How many transport/maritime crews are captained by SQNLDRs, instead of FLTLTs as was once the case?

Surely the ASP was intended to look at what happens in the 10 years RAAF has you in ROSO, not just what to do when we all reach 10 years disgruntled, pissed off and wanting out.

My 10 cents. (Perhaps 50 cents, but anyway:})

Surely not!! :)

On a serious note though (pprune, serious?) I do know of 3 guys from my company who have gone back in the last year. However this has nothing to do with the GFC, but more to do with particular company issues and lack of job satisfaction. Although early days...

It's interesting to note the repeated reference to "postings every 3 years" as a contributing factor to people's dissatisfaction. How bad is it, for aircrew? If you're an ALG driver, your posting option is one base per type, guaranteed to be in a capital city; ALG pilots have two main options, and admittedly one of them for Hornets is about as appealing as a punch in the groin, but the others are pretty good. Yes, there are QFI slots, but as East Sale is pretty much a side-show and usually filled by volunteers, there's only two of those to worry about. Compare this to an LAC CETECH, who has over 20 RAAF locations plus a couple of handfuls of Army, Navy, and Joint options as well, on half your pay and in much sleasier housing, and you might start to take a reality check.

While it's tempting to imagine the grass on the other side of the fence as bright green, involving a nice, stable post to your preferred capital city and never moving from there again, or an exciting five-year jaunt living in a city where the people look funny and the food tastes spicy, that's just not the reality - at least, not if you want the same number of career progression options you enjoyed in the RAAF or you're the luckiest bastard this side of the Hudson River.

So, perhaps the key is "posting flexibility", rather than length: the option to say "yes, I'd love to do two years here and two years there" or "no, I like Tindal, I'd like to stay", with mutually-understood effects on my career progression. In part, this is where ground jobs can step in, as if you want to live in Melbourne (for example), you must resign or stop flying. At least you have that latter choice if you take a ground job - if you worked for some civil employers, you might not.

Finally, there are those people whose life goals and circumstances no longer suit the RAAF. That's fine, but it's not the RAAF's fault, as much as you might like it to be. We all read the recruiting brochures, we all memorised our Top Gun scenes and imagined picking up backpackers in faraway places when we signed up, we knew the deal. Now, we all know a 10-year FLTLT who's been divorced five times, dodged a posting to TDL last year with a threat to resign, and would greet the news of a Squadron deployment to the 'stan with as much enthusiasm as yet another child support demand. Exactly what use to the Australian taxpayer is this person? He or she might be the best pilot since Chuck Yeager, but if they won't post and won't deploy and won't seek promotion, then maybe they're taking up a CE spot that someone else could fill. The USAF will discharge you if you fail to reach certain career milestones by certain deadlines. Just sayin'.

palm3,

You raise some really good points. In particular I totally agree that it would be great if members were able to negotiate with the various posting authorities. :DUnfortunately, my impression is that their agenda is to fill the slots that they are prioritising. It does not matter if there is an empty job in Melbourne that a particular pilot could be well used in if there is an empty liason job somewhere in Canberra that sits higher on the priority list. To Canberra you will go. Even if you go to cities that are fairly good to live in (say Richmond(Windsor) to Amberley(Ipswich) then back etc.), each move can have huge and dramatic effects on personal lives. Having to move once every 5 years on average could be devastating.

Your post refers to 'options'. I am not sure that this is the right term. The option is the RAAF's, not the member's. An ALG pilot could typically expect to be at risk of being sent to 5 bases - TVL, AMB, RIC, CBR, ESL - and that's not necesarily to start on a new type.

I'm not sure what the relevance is of comparing pilots' posting situation to Techos. If RAAF pilots were typically considering becoming techos I would understand your point. As it turns out, most seem to be looking at either a swap to the civil airlines, or a career change. By your logic we could compare everyone's package to a Private grunt and say that we should all be grateful to be doing better.

Finally your point that the departure of some is mutually good is totally true. Only problem is that the context of this discussion is that too many people are leaving. It's easy to see why people leave, and (kind of) easy to see why some will stay in. But how does the RAAF retain more of those in the middle? By surrendering some career control to the individual, and paying more. As a number of us have commented, neither of these is likely.

So what's the go? Are too many pilots leaving, or has it completely reversed?

I dont know if it has "reversed" but it has certainly slowed. I know of reservists that are looking to go back to permanent. Most of the slowing in exodus IMHO is due to the airlines apparently putting a freeze on recruiting. I get the impression that the number of guys nudging ROSO and looking to get out has not reduced (anecdotally).

Has this exodus affected the other services?
 

Can anybody add insight as to whether this "pilot drain" has been affecting Navy or Army? I have heard anecdotaly that this is the case, and yes I'm aware they fly different platforms. Just wondering if either services has been dramatically affected and if the "recession" has stopped or slowed pilots leaving those services as well?

ASP
 

Some new stuff on the ASP intranet site. It all looks pretty grim. Basically, all pilots will now be in a lower pay grade. A CO will be PG 9, that's the highest you can go.Current members will be protected by a legacy system. You would be literally crazy to transfer to the new one. A member who has been in a long time would lose a bucket of super.In sum, the system will be more sustainable, because they are going to give pilots less money. They can afford to at the moment!

Reduced pay? Hmmm - I wonder what effect THAT will have on the numbers of guys leaving when the outside employment situation goes back through the 'favourable' cycle again....

To clarify the base pay will reduce on the new scheme. This applies to pilots and ACO's. Pilots will then receive a top up payment that will reflect market forces. Great timing hey! This top up as I understand it will vary so you can't plan on it. When the worm turns it will probably be put up once the horse has bolted. The underlying issue is that there will be no more money for retention pay so they are just shuffling the deck chairs so to speak.

The senior command just don't get it. They spend millions on the FSP, only to create a final proposal that is rubbish and will have no positive retention effect. The reality is, it is all politicking and manoeurving to be seen to be acting on the problem. Reality is, they have done NOTHING (except waste a stack of resources better utilised in the FEGS!!) and have only added momentum to those wishing to leave asap.
Idiots !!
It is sooo frustrating to deal with such utter incompetence.

" How can you soar like an eagle when you work with turkeys"

Army Reserve weak link in defence plans | The Australian

'Air Chief Marshal Houston also put commercial pilots on notice that their days of using the RAAF as a flight-training school and a stepping stone to a lucrative flying career with Qantas or Virgin Airlines was about to end. '

how?

By doing this I guess................
Dunno precisely how that will work though. May backfire big time if potential rescruits percieve a requirement to sign up to an "active reserve pool" as another form of ROSO.

Methinks he was simply explaining the demise of the old Reserve Staff Group (RSG) where anyone could get reserve days at unit level and use them ad-hoc, and it's replacement with the newer Active Reserve War Establishment (WE) postings, where reserve members receive a five year positing to a dedicated position. As of July 1 there is no more RSG. All reserve flyers will need to have a WE posting within a unit/headquarters to continue to fly.

RM

From what I've heard - completely reversed. The separation rate, particularly amongst RAAF pilots, is so low that it is 'unhealthy' for the organisation.

Not a good time to be 'negotiating' a pay case.

Might even get a few sniffing around a job in the sandpit!

Not with the new tax laws announced in last night's budget! :eek: :suspect: