40hr PPL!?
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40hr PPL!?
Please exuse my ignorance- 
BUT I keep reading about people in the US and the UK
completing their ppls in 40-45 hours and then getting
instrument ratings!? + They appear to consider ppl to
cpl hour building (doing the hard yards!!?)
Maybe I was sh#t at 40 hours, but I wouldnt have
felt good enough to pass a NZ flight test..let alone
a cpl flight test!
Have I got the wrong end of the stick??
or ARE they relativly sheite pilots? (no offence)
BUT I keep reading about people in the US and the UK
completing their ppls in 40-45 hours and then getting
instrument ratings!? + They appear to consider ppl to
cpl hour building (doing the hard yards!!?)
Maybe I was sh#t at 40 hours, but I wouldnt have
felt good enough to pass a NZ flight test..let alone
a cpl flight test!
Have I got the wrong end of the stick??
or ARE they relativly sheite pilots? (no offence)
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Ignorance is Bliss
Hey A-S,
As far as I am aware (it has been some time since I reviewed CAOs) the only mandatory requirement for a unrestricted PPL, after completion of restricted PPL (now GFPT) was 5 hours solo cross country navigation.
It is not unreasonable to have a "switched on" and "motivated" student complete his GFPT in @ 35 - 38 hours. Now, if you were a boy scout or orientier in your childhood and impressed your instructor on your first nav ride he might let you go off on your 2 hour and 3 hour solo navs. Of course there is the PPL flight test after this (about 1.5 - 2 hours).
At the end of the day, a Unrestricted PPL is very achievable in @ 48 - 50 hours.
As for the IFR rating - you can get that anytime after the issue of an Unrestricted PPL provided you meet the night hour experience requirements (essentially a NGT VFR rating - 10 hours minimum).
IFR ratings (multi and single engine) are not the sole pervay of commercial pilots.
As for sheite pilots - there arn't any. Just those who assimulate instruction very well and those who can not remember what day it was yesterday - GET MY DRIFT.
Good luck
As far as I am aware (it has been some time since I reviewed CAOs) the only mandatory requirement for a unrestricted PPL, after completion of restricted PPL (now GFPT) was 5 hours solo cross country navigation.
It is not unreasonable to have a "switched on" and "motivated" student complete his GFPT in @ 35 - 38 hours. Now, if you were a boy scout or orientier in your childhood and impressed your instructor on your first nav ride he might let you go off on your 2 hour and 3 hour solo navs. Of course there is the PPL flight test after this (about 1.5 - 2 hours).
At the end of the day, a Unrestricted PPL is very achievable in @ 48 - 50 hours.
As for the IFR rating - you can get that anytime after the issue of an Unrestricted PPL provided you meet the night hour experience requirements (essentially a NGT VFR rating - 10 hours minimum).
IFR ratings (multi and single engine) are not the sole pervay of commercial pilots.
As for sheite pilots - there arn't any. Just those who assimulate instruction very well and those who can not remember what day it was yesterday - GET MY DRIFT.
Good luck
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Anti-Skid
I did the old UK CAA PPL & had to do an extra hour & a bit (hour building) to get up to the 40 hours before I could send all the paperwork off to get my PPL.
I'm not sure what 'unrestricted' means by FO C, but I had no restrictions to fly as long as I flew according to VFR rules.
Then I did an IMC rating, a 15 hour partial instrument rating (UK only), not allowed until after 10 hours flying, after qualifying.
Then I did a night rating.
Now a UK JAR PPL is 45 hours. More radio nav flying, I did none on my PPL.
After passing all the writtens, 8 for a CPL but now most people do the ATPLs 14, then a CPL course of 25 hours, then the CPL test.
To get a full Instrument rating you must pass several written exams (the same instrument exams as the ATPL students, for a PPL IR) before doing a 55 hour course, completed by a flying test. The instrument rating is a toughy but passable if you are up to standard.
I think it may be a simple case of those that are capable of passing the exams & tests in the minimum time required are skylords, the rest just need to work a bit harder, but it eventually comes.
I thought the only sheite pilots were in Iraq, Iran & nearby Arab states. (Sorry Shi-ite)
Good Luck with your continued training.
FB
I did the old UK CAA PPL & had to do an extra hour & a bit (hour building) to get up to the 40 hours before I could send all the paperwork off to get my PPL.
I'm not sure what 'unrestricted' means by FO C, but I had no restrictions to fly as long as I flew according to VFR rules.
Then I did an IMC rating, a 15 hour partial instrument rating (UK only), not allowed until after 10 hours flying, after qualifying.
Then I did a night rating.
Now a UK JAR PPL is 45 hours. More radio nav flying, I did none on my PPL.
After passing all the writtens, 8 for a CPL but now most people do the ATPLs 14, then a CPL course of 25 hours, then the CPL test.
To get a full Instrument rating you must pass several written exams (the same instrument exams as the ATPL students, for a PPL IR) before doing a 55 hour course, completed by a flying test. The instrument rating is a toughy but passable if you are up to standard.
I think it may be a simple case of those that are capable of passing the exams & tests in the minimum time required are skylords, the rest just need to work a bit harder, but it eventually comes.
I thought the only sheite pilots were in Iraq, Iran & nearby Arab states. (Sorry Shi-ite)
Good Luck with your continued training.
FB
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Cheers guys for clearing that up
The main reason for my query was that Ive never
meet a nz/aus who completed their ppl (within the
last 6-7 years) in such low hours. I believe the nz
min is still 50 hours but is that ever achieved?!-Instructors?
A s
The main reason for my query was that Ive never
meet a nz/aus who completed their ppl (within the
last 6-7 years) in such low hours. I believe the nz
min is still 50 hours but is that ever achieved?!-Instructors?
A s
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True about the UK being 40hrs, however, they have no night and less nav/instruments (as pointed out by FB)
I am sure as hell going to be there at 48 - 50hrs, having been consistently a couple of hours ahead of the syllabus (part of that is luck with weather and time) - my only pitfall was getting flaring sussed which put a major damper on things.
I am sure as hell going to be there at 48 - 50hrs, having been consistently a couple of hours ahead of the syllabus (part of that is luck with weather and time) - my only pitfall was getting flaring sussed which put a major damper on things.
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FB,
The terms of unrestricted and restricted PPL were the old school:
Unrestricted was a full PPL license (VFR)
Restricted PPL (now termed GFPT) was flight confined to the training area, five mile radius from the centre of the airfield and a straight line in between.
A-S,
In Ozmate, the flight training requirement for an IFR rating was a minimum of 40 hours:
20 of which can be conducted in an approved simulator.
20 actual flight and in the case of a CMEIR - 10 could be flown a single engine aircraft with the remaining 10 hours in the ME type in which the rating was going to be gained.
Then the flight test ride (full test @ 3 hours).
The above does not include any initial ME type rating flight training nor any NGTVFR requirements. Prior to any flight training you had to have passed the Instrument Rating Exam (IREX). This exam is based on IFR procedures/regulations and met (heavy on clouds and ice - for obvious reasons). CASA has tinkered with this over the years and the last heard first time pass rate was running @ 12%.
The above was the requirement when I undertook the training. It may have changed over the recent years.
Good luck
The terms of unrestricted and restricted PPL were the old school:
Unrestricted was a full PPL license (VFR)
Restricted PPL (now termed GFPT) was flight confined to the training area, five mile radius from the centre of the airfield and a straight line in between.
A-S,
In Ozmate, the flight training requirement for an IFR rating was a minimum of 40 hours:
20 of which can be conducted in an approved simulator.
20 actual flight and in the case of a CMEIR - 10 could be flown a single engine aircraft with the remaining 10 hours in the ME type in which the rating was going to be gained.
Then the flight test ride (full test @ 3 hours).
The above does not include any initial ME type rating flight training nor any NGTVFR requirements. Prior to any flight training you had to have passed the Instrument Rating Exam (IREX). This exam is based on IFR procedures/regulations and met (heavy on clouds and ice - for obvious reasons). CASA has tinkered with this over the years and the last heard first time pass rate was running @ 12%.
The above was the requirement when I undertook the training. It may have changed over the recent years.
Good luck
Moderator
The restricted PPL and GFPT are not the same thing. the GFPT is an optional flight test which, when passed, allows the student pilot to carry passengers in the training area and go for 15hours/90 days between dual checks instead of 3 hours/30 days. The holder is still a student pilot and as such is under the direct supervision of an instructor. The restricted PPL was a licence holder who was subject to area restirctions and not requiring direct supervision by an instructor. The dual check requirements were a BFR every two years. A GFPT should be achievable in 25 hours or so.
It is quite possible to get a well prepared and motivated student through the Aus PPL syllabus in minimum time. Our record holder was 40.2 hours. 45-55 is average. it takes a lot of hard work and dedication on the part of the instructor and student, and no mucking around changing instructors. The trick is to teach them good habits from lesson one, that way you can save hours of needless circuits trying to break bad habits later on.
To remove the restriction on a PPL yes rquires a minimum of five hours solo cross country. But it also requires them to reach a certain standard, and allowing about 20 hours of dual and solo cross country training would be reasonable.
It is quite possible to get a well prepared and motivated student through the Aus PPL syllabus in minimum time. Our record holder was 40.2 hours. 45-55 is average. it takes a lot of hard work and dedication on the part of the instructor and student, and no mucking around changing instructors. The trick is to teach them good habits from lesson one, that way you can save hours of needless circuits trying to break bad habits later on.
To remove the restriction on a PPL yes rquires a minimum of five hours solo cross country. But it also requires them to reach a certain standard, and allowing about 20 hours of dual and solo cross country training would be reasonable.
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CFI,
Apologies for the GFPT gaff - never went through that hoop.
Was the 40.2 hours for full PPL or to "GFPT"? Your statement is a little ambiguous seeing that there isn't a "restricted PPL" anymore.
FO C.
Apologies for the GFPT gaff - never went through that hoop.
Was the 40.2 hours for full PPL or to "GFPT"? Your statement is a little ambiguous seeing that there isn't a "restricted PPL" anymore.
FO C.
Moderator
That's 40.2 to a PPL. Which means a PPL. The restricted PPL was phased out in 1993, there are still a handful of RPPL holders, left over, but you can't train someone for a restricted PPL any more. 40 hours to cover the syllabus to GFPT would indicate some problems with the training methods and the student.
Sadly a lot of students are "milked" and made to do a lot more than they need to, and the results are no better, in fact those who have spent many hours getting through the PPL are often worse.
Sadly a lot of students are "milked" and made to do a lot more than they need to, and the results are no better, in fact those who have spent many hours getting through the PPL are often worse.
Those with a sense of history may recall that the syllabus minimum for a RPPL was 33 hours. We used to quote around 40hours as that is what experience showed was a reasonable time period.
Following pressure from the sports aircraft lobby this was reduced to 20 hours for a GFPT. The logic being that if you could handle a glider or an ultralight why should you have to meet the 33 hour minimum in "real" aircraft.
Nothing was removed from the syllabus, although I think the solo requirement dropped from 10 to 5 hours. So we now had to cover the same material in effectively 8 less hours. (33-5-20) It was/is unrealistic.
Of course now when a prospective student turns up they are fixated on 20 hours. I am sure CFI will agree that one of the first questions she has to answer is how many hours will it take? To which one response is " well how good do you want to be"
Final thought from the car modification crowd. The sign on the workshop wall says.."Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" Perhaps we could modify this for flight training. " High Quality Flight Training costs money, how long do you want to live?"
Following pressure from the sports aircraft lobby this was reduced to 20 hours for a GFPT. The logic being that if you could handle a glider or an ultralight why should you have to meet the 33 hour minimum in "real" aircraft.
Nothing was removed from the syllabus, although I think the solo requirement dropped from 10 to 5 hours. So we now had to cover the same material in effectively 8 less hours. (33-5-20) It was/is unrealistic.
Of course now when a prospective student turns up they are fixated on 20 hours. I am sure CFI will agree that one of the first questions she has to answer is how many hours will it take? To which one response is " well how good do you want to be"
Final thought from the car modification crowd. The sign on the workshop wall says.."Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" Perhaps we could modify this for flight training. " High Quality Flight Training costs money, how long do you want to live?"
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ppl can be issued at 40 hours in nz.
you get a night rating and cross country rating on top of that.
instrument rating is not confined to cpl's and above, just have to meet the requirements under part 61.
car kitty ano
you get a night rating and cross country rating on top of that.
instrument rating is not confined to cpl's and above, just have to meet the requirements under part 61.
car kitty ano
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FAA
At my school in the US our private pilot's certificate course has a minimum of 35 hrs of flight time. 20 dual and 5 solo and the rest either/or. Recently we had one guy graduate with 35.6 hrs but usually it's more like 40-50.
I agree that this is a result of a well managed program, we do change instructors though. I also believe it's a function of a well structured ground training syllabus, a lot of navigation etc.. involves mental knowledge not stick & rudder skills.
Also, we do not spend hours in the traffic pattern trying to get someone ready to solo at an early phase of the course. We introduce basic flying skills and traffic patterns but then move right into navigation and night and continue working on the landings in the meantime. This eliminates hours of time spent going up just to do circuits. Nobody solos at our school until they have completed all the requirements and are ready for their private pilot flight test. Then they go solo, then take a flight test.
The only reason for pushing someone to solo early in their training is for pride (I soloed at 12 hrs!! etc...)
There is a huge variation in the quality of flight training in the industry. I have seen guys with over 100 hrs who still haven't done their cross country training (what the hell have their instructors been doing with them?).
A lot depends on the school, and the instructor and to a degree the student.
I agree that this is a result of a well managed program, we do change instructors though. I also believe it's a function of a well structured ground training syllabus, a lot of navigation etc.. involves mental knowledge not stick & rudder skills.
Also, we do not spend hours in the traffic pattern trying to get someone ready to solo at an early phase of the course. We introduce basic flying skills and traffic patterns but then move right into navigation and night and continue working on the landings in the meantime. This eliminates hours of time spent going up just to do circuits. Nobody solos at our school until they have completed all the requirements and are ready for their private pilot flight test. Then they go solo, then take a flight test.
The only reason for pushing someone to solo early in their training is for pride (I soloed at 12 hrs!! etc...)
There is a huge variation in the quality of flight training in the industry. I have seen guys with over 100 hrs who still haven't done their cross country training (what the hell have their instructors been doing with them?).
A lot depends on the school, and the instructor and to a degree the student.
weasil, although I agree with most of what you said, a couple of things concern me!
whilst I agree 'mental knowledge' helps overall, the fundamenal skill that I try to teach is 'fly the plane.' I don't care how good they are theory or nav or basic mathematics, if they can't fly the plane confidently and accurately to begin with, they will spend far too much time 'catching up'
also
I couldn't agree more with the first two, however I've flown with a few non-dedicated students who were just throwing money into the fire and no matter how much time, effort and sweat I put in they were never going to learn. A VERY BIG PART is the students attitude and dedication.
Just my two cents
Cheers
GA Driver
involves mental knowledge not stick & rudder skills.
also
A lot depends on the school, and the instructor and to a degree the student.
Just my two cents
Cheers
GA Driver
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Thanks for your "concern" but let me explain your misunderstanding.
By mental knowledge I meant that, for example, using an E6B to find groundspeed, or measuring a distance on a sectional chart are topics that can be learned in the classroom. Too frequently I see instructors trying to teach these things to an overwhelmed student in the cockpit, instead of looking for traffic.
Secondly, a student's motivation and readiness to learn is certainly the number one factor in how well they learn. This however was again... not my point.
I'm talking about the ability to finish in 40 hours. The best student in the world is not going to do it if they don't have a flight instructor who knows how to structure a syllabus and make efficient use of their time or a school that provides with worthwhile education on every visit to the airport. Too frequently students show up and the instructor says "well what do you want to do today?" I have seen this again and again. We get a lot of finish up students with 55plus flight hours and they haven't started doing cross country or night training yet.
By mental knowledge I meant that, for example, using an E6B to find groundspeed, or measuring a distance on a sectional chart are topics that can be learned in the classroom. Too frequently I see instructors trying to teach these things to an overwhelmed student in the cockpit, instead of looking for traffic.
Secondly, a student's motivation and readiness to learn is certainly the number one factor in how well they learn. This however was again... not my point.
I'm talking about the ability to finish in 40 hours. The best student in the world is not going to do it if they don't have a flight instructor who knows how to structure a syllabus and make efficient use of their time or a school that provides with worthwhile education on every visit to the airport. Too frequently students show up and the instructor says "well what do you want to do today?" I have seen this again and again. We get a lot of finish up students with 55plus flight hours and they haven't started doing cross country or night training yet.
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In Oz many of the schools have the students doing cross-country before solo (and after solo) - no nav training just huge circuits. Runs up the hrs and profits no end.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ght=point+cook
One of many threads on the subject
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ght=point+cook
One of many threads on the subject
Broadening up this subject a little, comparing my own training and subsequent instructional experience to "typical" training these days, I note a great hurry to get students into the circuit phase.
I firmly believe that the basic handling exercises should be completed to a sound consistent standard outside the circuit prior to commencing circuit training.
This has benefits of increased situational awareness and increased confidence when the student starts "mixing it" in the circuit with other aircraft, ATC etc.
Having reviewd some student records at local flying schools I see all basic exercises being "signed off", sometimes in as little as 3 hours and students starting circuit training but not achieving solo until 18 - 20 hours.
This compares with 6 - 7 hours of dual outside the circuit and 4 sessions of circuits of about 45 mins each prior to solo, which is my experience from the past. (This was on PA28s at a large school / busy airport / near Controlled airspace). PPLs (unrestricted) were regularly gained in under 45 hours.
I have also spoken to lots of newer instructors who say that they need to fly big circuits "to give the student time to get everything done". Same problem perhaps?
Its the old story of good foundations.
Thoughts?
I firmly believe that the basic handling exercises should be completed to a sound consistent standard outside the circuit prior to commencing circuit training.
This has benefits of increased situational awareness and increased confidence when the student starts "mixing it" in the circuit with other aircraft, ATC etc.
Having reviewd some student records at local flying schools I see all basic exercises being "signed off", sometimes in as little as 3 hours and students starting circuit training but not achieving solo until 18 - 20 hours.
This compares with 6 - 7 hours of dual outside the circuit and 4 sessions of circuits of about 45 mins each prior to solo, which is my experience from the past. (This was on PA28s at a large school / busy airport / near Controlled airspace). PPLs (unrestricted) were regularly gained in under 45 hours.
I have also spoken to lots of newer instructors who say that they need to fly big circuits "to give the student time to get everything done". Same problem perhaps?
Its the old story of good foundations.
Thoughts?
'students need time to get things done'
Propjet88 is right.
They certainly do, but this raises the whole can of worms over whether they are being given too much to do. Does a 152 need a checklist which includes gear down, prop pitch fine,cowl flaps openand so on...ad nauseum? IMHO - checklists are too bloody long!
If you need time - then fly slower in the circuit. It seems to me that the reason for circuit size and time problems is a lot to do with flogging along at cruise IAS thru' oft times choppy air. Students is using one hand to hang on, one to fly, one to adjust power,one to flip thru checklist....
Do we need to be doing 100 when 80 would be more stable?
Just a few comments. Realise this is not the only reason for student times blowing out.
cheers,
Propjet88 is right.
They certainly do, but this raises the whole can of worms over whether they are being given too much to do. Does a 152 need a checklist which includes gear down, prop pitch fine,cowl flaps openand so on...ad nauseum? IMHO - checklists are too bloody long!
If you need time - then fly slower in the circuit. It seems to me that the reason for circuit size and time problems is a lot to do with flogging along at cruise IAS thru' oft times choppy air. Students is using one hand to hang on, one to fly, one to adjust power,one to flip thru checklist....
Do we need to be doing 100 when 80 would be more stable?
Just a few comments. Realise this is not the only reason for student times blowing out.
cheers,
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In the Test Standards guide for Private Pilot flight tests it tells examiners that use of the checklist is not always practical and that so long as the applicant remembers to complete all the items on the checklist that is good enough. Most instructors interpret this to be a good guide for memorised prelanding checklists during traffic pattern practice.
This is in the US of course.. not dunnunda
This is in the US of course.. not dunnunda
