Minimum Wage
Amen Y0SSARIAN!
Just a few points from a rather inexperienced GA driver...
Firstly, there are far too many pilots being paid less than award (thankfully never been one of them). Secondly, the award itself is probably about 15-20% lower than what it should be, at all levels from single engine up to multi-crew turbine.
The problems can themselves be divided into two and must be treated and dealt with separately, however a Union would be the best way to go about solving them both.
The first problem is intolerable, but as has been mentioned earlier it is a common part of the industry due to the sheer cut-throat nature of it all. There needs to be a common ground for everyone to stand on before we can argue that the award itself is too low, hence the problem of not being paid the award must be dealt with firstly.
Union membership is clearly the way to go - perhaps in that excited moment when you fill out your CPL application form, you are also handed a Union Membership form. Charge an initial sign-up fee (doesn't have to be huge) then only charge the members once they are gainfully employed? That way out of work pilots wouldn't have to pay for their services, but would do so once they are employed - hell, it's even a tax deduction. I don't know a great deal about the running costs involved with the ALPA so perhaps I am being unrealistic with this idea - someone please bring me into line if needs be. Obviosuly Union Membership would never go close to the 100% mark, but how many of you out there have ever been encouraged to join, either whilst training or once employed?
The second problem of a lower than acceptable award wage only really occurred to me today when I was offered a (non-flying) job relating to office administration/data entry and menial tasks like that. For a Mon-Fri 9-5 job requiring no experience/qualifications whatsoever they are paying around $30,500/annum with a 5% pay rise to come on July 1. Sure, it's as boring as hell, doesn't even come close to the pleasure and satisfaction of flying and no doubt i will be pulling my hair out soon, but i needed something to keep me going for a while.
Now we all know that is more than the GA single engine award, for far less responsibility and no training other than a few days on-the-job. Obviously progression and the subsequent higher salary aren't exactly attainable in this (non-flying) position, but then again, relating it back to aviation only a select few in our industry reach the major airlines and the healthy salaries that go with it.
Casual positions will always be a tough one - sure, you are worth the $30 odd/hr you get whilst flying, but none of us are worth that on the ground! Then again, we are also not free labour, so as has been suggested a lower hourly rate (maybe $10/hr) for aircraft washing, office work and other jobs which are an accepted part of a GA position should be considered.
I guess what i'm saying is that a stronger, more vocal and active Union will have to come together before we can put forward a strong argument about what we deserve and what we are worth. I will proudly say I am not currently a Union member because in the past I saw it as futile when the rest of the guys sharing the skies and the jobs with me weren't part of the same team. After today's episode making me realise how much we are getting shafted and what we are potentially worth, I am much more passionate about it all.
If anyone thinks I'm getting a bit too much like a chanting protester at one of those Union protests, you can probably blame my upbringing - a house of two teachers for parents always striving with their co-workers for better wages and conditions.
Looking forward to any constructive (or destructive!) criticism.
Cheers,
TL
Just a few points from a rather inexperienced GA driver...
Firstly, there are far too many pilots being paid less than award (thankfully never been one of them). Secondly, the award itself is probably about 15-20% lower than what it should be, at all levels from single engine up to multi-crew turbine.
The problems can themselves be divided into two and must be treated and dealt with separately, however a Union would be the best way to go about solving them both.
The first problem is intolerable, but as has been mentioned earlier it is a common part of the industry due to the sheer cut-throat nature of it all. There needs to be a common ground for everyone to stand on before we can argue that the award itself is too low, hence the problem of not being paid the award must be dealt with firstly.
Union membership is clearly the way to go - perhaps in that excited moment when you fill out your CPL application form, you are also handed a Union Membership form. Charge an initial sign-up fee (doesn't have to be huge) then only charge the members once they are gainfully employed? That way out of work pilots wouldn't have to pay for their services, but would do so once they are employed - hell, it's even a tax deduction. I don't know a great deal about the running costs involved with the ALPA so perhaps I am being unrealistic with this idea - someone please bring me into line if needs be. Obviosuly Union Membership would never go close to the 100% mark, but how many of you out there have ever been encouraged to join, either whilst training or once employed?
The second problem of a lower than acceptable award wage only really occurred to me today when I was offered a (non-flying) job relating to office administration/data entry and menial tasks like that. For a Mon-Fri 9-5 job requiring no experience/qualifications whatsoever they are paying around $30,500/annum with a 5% pay rise to come on July 1. Sure, it's as boring as hell, doesn't even come close to the pleasure and satisfaction of flying and no doubt i will be pulling my hair out soon, but i needed something to keep me going for a while.
Now we all know that is more than the GA single engine award, for far less responsibility and no training other than a few days on-the-job. Obviously progression and the subsequent higher salary aren't exactly attainable in this (non-flying) position, but then again, relating it back to aviation only a select few in our industry reach the major airlines and the healthy salaries that go with it.
Casual positions will always be a tough one - sure, you are worth the $30 odd/hr you get whilst flying, but none of us are worth that on the ground! Then again, we are also not free labour, so as has been suggested a lower hourly rate (maybe $10/hr) for aircraft washing, office work and other jobs which are an accepted part of a GA position should be considered.
I guess what i'm saying is that a stronger, more vocal and active Union will have to come together before we can put forward a strong argument about what we deserve and what we are worth. I will proudly say I am not currently a Union member because in the past I saw it as futile when the rest of the guys sharing the skies and the jobs with me weren't part of the same team. After today's episode making me realise how much we are getting shafted and what we are potentially worth, I am much more passionate about it all.
If anyone thinks I'm getting a bit too much like a chanting protester at one of those Union protests, you can probably blame my upbringing - a house of two teachers for parents always striving with their co-workers for better wages and conditions.
Looking forward to any constructive (or destructive!) criticism.
Cheers,
TL
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I applaud the comments on Pilot conditions.
I really hope something positive happens out of all these posts. It may work out well for Operators as well as Pilots. Many good Operators are sick of losing work to quotes/bids where the Pilots work for peanuts.
However, No matter how strong the Union, or how strong the resolve to improve conditions - there will always be Pilots who will somehow undercut their colleagues.
The supply of Pilots is too high, and the dream too strong to believe otherwise. Union applications handed out with a licence will mean Jack S. for some CPLs who have a rich Daddy or has invested his/her own $$$ & has been out of work for a few months.
Am I wrong?.
Currently on this forum there are threads about 'Night ICUS for sale' & 'PPL Instructors' etc etc. But only one thread on Minimum wage.
A Pilot's Union, the Government, Uniform, Just & Strong Regulation can enforce an Award on Operators.
OK then, any suggestions on how (some) Pilots can be convinced to stop offering their services for less than they are worth??.
I really hope something positive happens out of all these posts. It may work out well for Operators as well as Pilots. Many good Operators are sick of losing work to quotes/bids where the Pilots work for peanuts.
However, No matter how strong the Union, or how strong the resolve to improve conditions - there will always be Pilots who will somehow undercut their colleagues.
The supply of Pilots is too high, and the dream too strong to believe otherwise. Union applications handed out with a licence will mean Jack S. for some CPLs who have a rich Daddy or has invested his/her own $$$ & has been out of work for a few months.
Am I wrong?.
Currently on this forum there are threads about 'Night ICUS for sale' & 'PPL Instructors' etc etc. But only one thread on Minimum wage.
A Pilot's Union, the Government, Uniform, Just & Strong Regulation can enforce an Award on Operators.
OK then, any suggestions on how (some) Pilots can be convinced to stop offering their services for less than they are worth??.
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I dont think you can ever stop the will work for less pay situation. People think getting that first job is to difficult, but is it. I dont know anyone who was persistent that didnt get on somewhere within 18 months (and thats at an award paying job).
To start with why dont we get the moderator to conduct a survey of this forum. This'll give you something to go on when contacting the AFAP or ANU when getting them to enforce the current award or renegotiate it.
Poll this for instance: Is your employer paying you the award wage/salary for your current (piston?) flying position?.
To start with why dont we get the moderator to conduct a survey of this forum. This'll give you something to go on when contacting the AFAP or ANU when getting them to enforce the current award or renegotiate it.
Poll this for instance: Is your employer paying you the award wage/salary for your current (piston?) flying position?.
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Mshongo:
I/WE agree, almost all get a position by waiting. But in the meantime, quite a number will work for nix to keep current or build up time to get that prize position.
Mshongo, all due respect but once again, moderators, polls, awards, renegotiation all sounds very nice and positive but will all count for nothing when a large percentage of Pilots (usually the lower time ones) are not willing to support their peers in action.
Example: Transition Layer mentioned teacher parents actions for conditions. Their conditions are successful because the VAST 99.9% majority of teachers act as a group.
I can not see 99% solidary amoung the GA pilot industry.
When I stop seeing Pilot CV's that offer to work for free or low pay - thats when I think the industry can change.
Until then, I see G.A. moving more towards the rest of the world. I.E. Paying for ICUS becoming more common. USA style pay rates for Instructors ($5-$10 per flight hour). Esp. if CASA moves towards a UK style PPL Instructor Rating!.
So then, I would be more interested in seeing the results of a poll that reads:
'Do you support the idea of a Pilot Union and/or supporting the total strict enforcement of the Pilots award, even if it means:
You may never get a job, may have to wait 18 months for a job after completion of a CPL or have reduced options for gaining hours for an Airline position and therefore face a future career - no higher than G.A.'. YES/NO.
I dont think you can ever stop the will work for less pay situation. People think getting that first job is to difficult, but is it. I dont know anyone who was persistent that didnt get on somewhere within 18 months (and thats at an award paying job).
I/WE agree, almost all get a position by waiting. But in the meantime, quite a number will work for nix to keep current or build up time to get that prize position.
To start with why dont we get the moderator to conduct a survey of this forum. This'll give you something to go on when contacting the AFAP or ANU when getting them to enforce the current award or renegotiate it.
Mshongo, all due respect but once again, moderators, polls, awards, renegotiation all sounds very nice and positive but will all count for nothing when a large percentage of Pilots (usually the lower time ones) are not willing to support their peers in action.
Example: Transition Layer mentioned teacher parents actions for conditions. Their conditions are successful because the VAST 99.9% majority of teachers act as a group.
I can not see 99% solidary amoung the GA pilot industry.
When I stop seeing Pilot CV's that offer to work for free or low pay - thats when I think the industry can change.
Until then, I see G.A. moving more towards the rest of the world. I.E. Paying for ICUS becoming more common. USA style pay rates for Instructors ($5-$10 per flight hour). Esp. if CASA moves towards a UK style PPL Instructor Rating!.
So then, I would be more interested in seeing the results of a poll that reads:
'Do you support the idea of a Pilot Union and/or supporting the total strict enforcement of the Pilots award, even if it means:
You may never get a job, may have to wait 18 months for a job after completion of a CPL or have reduced options for gaining hours for an Airline position and therefore face a future career - no higher than G.A.'. YES/NO.
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Well if our industry is so pathetic that it can't afford to pay salaries comparable to un skilled labour then maybe it should suffer the consequences. I'm sure all the factories who had child labour working for them felt that they wouldn't be able to survive when they were told they could no longer hire children.
On another note what abount the trend of pilots being employed on a contract basis . It solves all the employers worries- they arn't liable to pay award wage and the best bit-they have you over a barrel because if you treat it as a contract job and only turn up to conduct your renumeration based flights guess what-no more flights for you!! Talk about getting shafted! Damed if you do and damed if you don't.
On another note what abount the trend of pilots being employed on a contract basis . It solves all the employers worries- they arn't liable to pay award wage and the best bit-they have you over a barrel because if you treat it as a contract job and only turn up to conduct your renumeration based flights guess what-no more flights for you!! Talk about getting shafted! Damed if you do and damed if you don't.
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Anyone at MB, look outside right now. Based on this weather, how many instructors right now are sitting on the couch, joystick in hand, answering phones etc. after cancelling their afternoon (read income) due weather, but keeping the doors open unpaid for the boss. Just the nature of the game, and remember, that boss has a file of CVs from unemployed instructors... No award, I think, will have much effect on this situation
The fake "contract" situation is rampant in many industries. It's a great way for the employer to dodge Work Cover and other similar things. 
People don't seem to realise that you just can't call anyone a contractor.
The following is from http://www.wagenet.gov.au
People don't seem to realise that you just can't call anyone a contractor.
The following is from http://www.wagenet.gov.au
This test provides a guide to determining if a person is an employee or independent contractor. However, the test is only a guide, because to determine whether or not someone is an employee or an independent contractor is a question of fact in each case and depends on the individual circumstances.[list=1][*]Is the worker paid a wage or salary?[*]Is the work performed at the employer’s place of business? [*]Does the worker work regular or defined hours? [*]Is the worker engaged to produce a certain result, the completion of which will terminate their relationship with the employer, at least for the time being? [*]Does the worker provide their own plant or equipment as a means of accomplishing their work? [*]Does the worker have the right to sub-contract their work? [*]Is the worker subject to detailed or direct control or could the employer subject them to such control if they chose to? [/list=1]
- The person is likely to be an employee if you answered 'yes' to questions 1, 2, 3 and 7, and answered 'no' to 4, 5 and 6.
- Sometimes, the answers to 4, 5 and 6 may be "yes" and the person could still an employee.
- If the answer to question 7 is "yes", the worker is most likely to be an employee.
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Getmeoutovga wrote
I found myself in a similar position a few years ago, operator trying to hoodwink me into going subcontractor to avoid their obligations to me. Scumbags. You have to draw the line somewhere. I decided to walk.
Sure, they found a little turd that accepted the conditions on offer and was happy for the opportunity to be shafted.
But I stood by my principles and found a far better job that paid award.
If you guys and girls choose to hide behind the feeble excuse that "someone's just waiting to take my place", then you deserve the conditions you enjoy.
Get off your arses and do something about it.
On another note what abount the trend of pilots being employed on a contract basis . It solves all the employers worries- they arn't liable to pay award wage and the best bit-they have you over a barrel because if you treat it as a contract job and only turn up to conduct your renumeration based flights guess what-no more flights for you!! Talk about getting shafted! Damed if you do and damed if you don't.
Sure, they found a little turd that accepted the conditions on offer and was happy for the opportunity to be shafted.
But I stood by my principles and found a far better job that paid award.
If you guys and girls choose to hide behind the feeble excuse that "someone's just waiting to take my place", then you deserve the conditions you enjoy.
Get off your arses and do something about it.
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Well said HJ,
I left my first job because the other pilot I worked with would offer to work for nix, and so was starting to get the majority of work. I raised the issue with my boss thinking maybe my performance was lacking. The situation was made clear and I chose to walk rather than lower myself to his standards and compete for hours. (Some of us actually like to eat and pay rent as mummy and daddy don't support us!).
I never regretted that decision and now earn the award. Its better to die on your feet than live on your knee's.For those of you that disagree ask your self this next time your flying. If an operator is to tight to pay the measley award to those that are entrusted to earn HIS/HER income,represent his or her company in the eye of the public and aviation community, what else will the b@rst@d scrimp on???
88b
I left my first job because the other pilot I worked with would offer to work for nix, and so was starting to get the majority of work. I raised the issue with my boss thinking maybe my performance was lacking. The situation was made clear and I chose to walk rather than lower myself to his standards and compete for hours. (Some of us actually like to eat and pay rent as mummy and daddy don't support us!).
I never regretted that decision and now earn the award. Its better to die on your feet than live on your knee's.For those of you that disagree ask your self this next time your flying. If an operator is to tight to pay the measley award to those that are entrusted to earn HIS/HER income,represent his or her company in the eye of the public and aviation community, what else will the b@rst@d scrimp on???
88b
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These are all good points.
But, as has been mentioned, what is being done about it?
If pilots and the industry in general aren't cohesive enough to get something done, then isn't it time to build some cohesion?
One of my housemates is a professional rock muso. As with pilots, he's doing it for the love of what he does.
He works his @rse off for little reward, and when he's not out rehearsing, playing gigs, writing songs, recording, and networking to get airplay on any radio station he can find, he's being abused as a dole bludger (he is lucky to make $50 a gig).
But I've seen through him and his bandmates what can be done.
Currently in Melbourne if only one person makes a complaint against the level of noise at a pub, the council can shut down the venue (I've simplified this a little). So venues are cutting back on the bands they book. This effectively kills any chance to get a paid gig.
When one of the main venues came under this kind of pressure, they started walking around with a petition. One of the bandmembers started talking to journos. Everybody talked about it to whoever they could. It took lots of work, and plenty of cohesion between different people in the music industry, who don't always see eye-to-eye, but their photocopied petition took them from small article in the local music press, to a bigger article, to an article in the Sunday Times, and another larger article in The Age. This all started only a month or two ago.
On Tuesday they are having a public meeting at Trades Hall in Melbourne, with the possibility of TV coverage, and other interviews. There will be musos, public supporters, union officials, and politicians.
It just goes to show that with a little unity, and a lot of dedication a cause can get noticed.
It wouldn't take much to get "A Current Affair" on the case - "Pilot's living on dog food, and being paid less than a cleaner".
When I was on uni holidays I worked as a cleaner. One week I took home $900 clear. That was back in 1991.
As a telephone sales consultant (telemarketer - I was between jobs, and didn't want the dole) I made $500 a week clear with minimal responsibility. I didn't have any experience, and minimal training. I certainly hadn't invested in the region of $40,000 in my own training.
I think it's fair to be paid fairly, and if pilots stuck together on this one, I think it would have to happen.
Also, I think if people outside of GA, the general public, knew what was going on, they'd be in full support. When I tell my friends what's going on, they can't believe this kind of thing is still happening, and they think I'm crazy for getting into aviation.
Has anyone talked to the unions about this? Maybe meetings should be organised around the country.
I like the idea of union applications being passed around at flying schools, I'd sign up right now, but it wouldn't get anywhere without numbers. The more the merrier.
But, as has been mentioned, what is being done about it?
If pilots and the industry in general aren't cohesive enough to get something done, then isn't it time to build some cohesion?
One of my housemates is a professional rock muso. As with pilots, he's doing it for the love of what he does.
He works his @rse off for little reward, and when he's not out rehearsing, playing gigs, writing songs, recording, and networking to get airplay on any radio station he can find, he's being abused as a dole bludger (he is lucky to make $50 a gig).
But I've seen through him and his bandmates what can be done.
Currently in Melbourne if only one person makes a complaint against the level of noise at a pub, the council can shut down the venue (I've simplified this a little). So venues are cutting back on the bands they book. This effectively kills any chance to get a paid gig.
When one of the main venues came under this kind of pressure, they started walking around with a petition. One of the bandmembers started talking to journos. Everybody talked about it to whoever they could. It took lots of work, and plenty of cohesion between different people in the music industry, who don't always see eye-to-eye, but their photocopied petition took them from small article in the local music press, to a bigger article, to an article in the Sunday Times, and another larger article in The Age. This all started only a month or two ago.
On Tuesday they are having a public meeting at Trades Hall in Melbourne, with the possibility of TV coverage, and other interviews. There will be musos, public supporters, union officials, and politicians.
It just goes to show that with a little unity, and a lot of dedication a cause can get noticed.
It wouldn't take much to get "A Current Affair" on the case - "Pilot's living on dog food, and being paid less than a cleaner".
When I was on uni holidays I worked as a cleaner. One week I took home $900 clear. That was back in 1991.
As a telephone sales consultant (telemarketer - I was between jobs, and didn't want the dole) I made $500 a week clear with minimal responsibility. I didn't have any experience, and minimal training. I certainly hadn't invested in the region of $40,000 in my own training.
I think it's fair to be paid fairly, and if pilots stuck together on this one, I think it would have to happen.
Also, I think if people outside of GA, the general public, knew what was going on, they'd be in full support. When I tell my friends what's going on, they can't believe this kind of thing is still happening, and they think I'm crazy for getting into aviation.
Has anyone talked to the unions about this? Maybe meetings should be organised around the country.
I like the idea of union applications being passed around at flying schools, I'd sign up right now, but it wouldn't get anywhere without numbers. The more the merrier.
Agree wholeheartedly with you Louie the Fly - many of my friends are dumbfounded at the pay as well. All of us were uni graduates (granted, not a requirement in aviation) but they are shocked at what I earn, and also the cost of living where I was based. Here they are living at home still taking home $40-50k/yr!!!
(end of whinge)
At least this thread seems to be going somewhere now...almost all the feedback is positive which is heartening to say the least. Going back and re-reading the thread, it's good to hear from an operators point of view from CFI who makes some good points about the uniqueness of the industry.
Perhaps a charter operator (HA springs to mind) would care to comment on what they think is a reasonable solution, or at least a way to begin moving forward. Realise you and your company aren't exactly anonymous mate, so don't feel like you have to give any company secrets away!
Cheers,
TL
(end of whinge)
At least this thread seems to be going somewhere now...almost all the feedback is positive which is heartening to say the least. Going back and re-reading the thread, it's good to hear from an operators point of view from CFI who makes some good points about the uniqueness of the industry.
Perhaps a charter operator (HA springs to mind) would care to comment on what they think is a reasonable solution, or at least a way to begin moving forward. Realise you and your company aren't exactly anonymous mate, so don't feel like you have to give any company secrets away!
Cheers,
TL
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The sad thing is only about 2% of pilots proberly make the airlines. Which is only sad because the other 98% have to live below the poverty line hoping that one day they will make the airlines. Screw this i'm going to uni. Beer, babes and best of all financial reward at the end. Ohh and one other thing, dignity.
we need something similar to Vetinarians.
after completing their training/degree/doctorate whatever, they must join an association, and in doing so agree to accept a minimum wage as such. this ensures a decent (very) income.
after completing their training/degree/doctorate whatever, they must join an association, and in doing so agree to accept a minimum wage as such. this ensures a decent (very) income.
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An interesting observation indeed QNIM – but the lesson I would learn appears to be different from the implication of your post…..
A common theme in this thread is the “dog eat dog” world of people starting out in the Australian Aviation industry. The “confrontation” you mention is a graphic example of what happens when personal greed wins over an ordered negotiation. What happened in ’89 was no different to what is happening to you now, with a few individuals willing to trample anyone else in order to get to a better position.
Whatever your personal view of the ’89 thing, if nothing else, it ought to illustrate the futility of trying to achieve improved conditions as an individual. There are just too many people, who, like you and me, love aviation and are willing to endure just about anything to make a living out of it.
The only organization in Australia with the experience and expertise to represent you is the AFAP. Learn from history!
A common theme in this thread is the “dog eat dog” world of people starting out in the Australian Aviation industry. The “confrontation” you mention is a graphic example of what happens when personal greed wins over an ordered negotiation. What happened in ’89 was no different to what is happening to you now, with a few individuals willing to trample anyone else in order to get to a better position.
Whatever your personal view of the ’89 thing, if nothing else, it ought to illustrate the futility of trying to achieve improved conditions as an individual. There are just too many people, who, like you and me, love aviation and are willing to endure just about anything to make a living out of it.
The only organization in Australia with the experience and expertise to represent you is the AFAP. Learn from history!
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Hi G_W_W
Firstly I was not employed in the industry back then nor was my entry into the industry a result of it, I don't have any real feelings over the outcome. I have friends and acquaitances from both sides.
My post was intended to warn those that if they did take action there are many wannebees out there that would walk in and take the jobs. I also smile as I bend over and take the insertion.
Cheers Q
Firstly I was not employed in the industry back then nor was my entry into the industry a result of it, I don't have any real feelings over the outcome. I have friends and acquaitances from both sides.
My post was intended to warn those that if they did take action there are many wannebees out there that would walk in and take the jobs. I also smile as I bend over and take the insertion.
Cheers Q
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Fair enough QNIM.
I have had my ups and downs with various unions in various industries, and as you say, the results have sometimes been unpredictable (on strike for 2 months prompted by the number of flavours of icecream in the mess hall????).
While, on the whole, unions haven't done much for me personally when I've needed their help, they have helped the industries I've worked in by defining better award conditions, and putting pressure on the powers that be to ensure fair treatment of staff.
I think their strength lies in their ability to "lobby".
I believe GA needs just such a lobby group, not necessarily a union, but a group which represents the broader needs of the industry as a whole - excuse my ignorance, but is AOPA doing anything to help?
I also believe that to get the best for the pilots, the operators need to be represented as well.
I think an "us vs. them" mentallity can sometimes be counterproductive. Lets face it, without the operators, there wouldn't be many jobs for pilots. So it's important to think of the industry on the whole. The problems outlined in these posts have been caused by both slinky pilots, and dodgey operators.
Ghost_Who_Walks : If AFAP is the only organisation who can help, where are they now? Has anybody from GA contacted them, or have they contacted anybody from GA? Would they be interested in taking an interest? A post from someone with ties to AFAP might be worth reading.
nike : Not a bad idea. Sounds much like the AMA for doctors, and countless other societies and associations for professionals. Might be a step in the right direction. Once again, wouldn't AOPA do this kind of thing?
getmeoutofga : Good luck with the uni thing. I always wanted to be a pilot, but for one reason or another I wasn't. I tried many other things, and have had some great jobs, interesting times, world travel, and good money. Overriding everything though, was my love of aviation. It was something I couldn't get out of my system, no matter how hard I tried to ignore it. The end result : I'm giving away the good pay, swapping it for an industry with dubious prospects. I know I'm making the right choice, as I've tried every other bl@@dy thing out there, and could never feel quite as good as I do when I'm in a cockpit. I hope you're making the right decision.
I have had my ups and downs with various unions in various industries, and as you say, the results have sometimes been unpredictable (on strike for 2 months prompted by the number of flavours of icecream in the mess hall????).
While, on the whole, unions haven't done much for me personally when I've needed their help, they have helped the industries I've worked in by defining better award conditions, and putting pressure on the powers that be to ensure fair treatment of staff.
I think their strength lies in their ability to "lobby".
I believe GA needs just such a lobby group, not necessarily a union, but a group which represents the broader needs of the industry as a whole - excuse my ignorance, but is AOPA doing anything to help?
I also believe that to get the best for the pilots, the operators need to be represented as well.
I think an "us vs. them" mentallity can sometimes be counterproductive. Lets face it, without the operators, there wouldn't be many jobs for pilots. So it's important to think of the industry on the whole. The problems outlined in these posts have been caused by both slinky pilots, and dodgey operators.
Ghost_Who_Walks : If AFAP is the only organisation who can help, where are they now? Has anybody from GA contacted them, or have they contacted anybody from GA? Would they be interested in taking an interest? A post from someone with ties to AFAP might be worth reading.
nike : Not a bad idea. Sounds much like the AMA for doctors, and countless other societies and associations for professionals. Might be a step in the right direction. Once again, wouldn't AOPA do this kind of thing?
getmeoutofga : Good luck with the uni thing. I always wanted to be a pilot, but for one reason or another I wasn't. I tried many other things, and have had some great jobs, interesting times, world travel, and good money. Overriding everything though, was my love of aviation. It was something I couldn't get out of my system, no matter how hard I tried to ignore it. The end result : I'm giving away the good pay, swapping it for an industry with dubious prospects. I know I'm making the right choice, as I've tried every other bl@@dy thing out there, and could never feel quite as good as I do when I'm in a cockpit. I hope you're making the right decision.
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Thanks Louie
We seem to be on the same wave length, AOPA would seem to be the logical orginisation to represent us, if they were to investigate who was paying the award and who was not, then publish the list in the mag,punters could make a decision on where to train, I think publicity of that type would make them think about paying better. There maybe some law against that Im a pilot not a lawyer. Cheers Q
We seem to be on the same wave length, AOPA would seem to be the logical orginisation to represent us, if they were to investigate who was paying the award and who was not, then publish the list in the mag,punters could make a decision on where to train, I think publicity of that type would make them think about paying better. There maybe some law against that Im a pilot not a lawyer. Cheers Q
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A simple 'google' search revealed:
The federal minimum wage is $431.40 for a standard 38-hour week or $11.35 per hour. Nearly all states have legislated or fixed a corresponding minimum wage, at the same rate.
source: http://www.actu.asn.au/public/about/minimumwage.html
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The federal minimum wage is $431.40 for a standard 38-hour week or $11.35 per hour. Nearly all states have legislated or fixed a corresponding minimum wage, at the same rate.
source: http://www.actu.asn.au/public/about/minimumwage.html
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QNIM, there are a number of websites (state and federal) covering awards and respondents to the awards. It's all a bit of a slurry, and a little hard to follow (state and federal awards, and the complications of jurisdiction, and awards over various years which may not still be current), but the information is supposedly all there. Sorry I don't have any links to post for you, but many of the links can be found on PPRuNe.
As has been posted previously, an award is now only legally binding if a company has signed the agreement.
As far as the legalities of publishing a list go, if the information is already public knowledge, it shouldn't be a problem. The problems might arise if, by ommission, a company is implicated as potentially not complying with an award. Libel or slander laws may also be a problem if specifically non-complying companies are named. But I'm not a lawyer either. And good lawyers make good money from loopholes, and ignorance of the finer points of law.
I wish AOPA all the luck in the world, and hopefully there will be someone at AOPA having a look at the situation with respect to pay and conditions for GA. It wouldn't hurt for them, and other lobby groups, to have a larger membership base either. Strength through numbers.
I still think that there must be a way that operators can charge a reasonable fee for services, and pass a cut of the profit to the pilots and staff, by way of fair payment for a fair days work. It seems that what we have at the moment is a price war.
Anybody have any constructive criticism or advice? I'd be interested in hearing from some of the operators out there. It must sting to have to cut margins to the bone... Maybe it's just the times we live in, maybe it's more than that?
As has been posted previously, an award is now only legally binding if a company has signed the agreement.
As far as the legalities of publishing a list go, if the information is already public knowledge, it shouldn't be a problem. The problems might arise if, by ommission, a company is implicated as potentially not complying with an award. Libel or slander laws may also be a problem if specifically non-complying companies are named. But I'm not a lawyer either. And good lawyers make good money from loopholes, and ignorance of the finer points of law.
I wish AOPA all the luck in the world, and hopefully there will be someone at AOPA having a look at the situation with respect to pay and conditions for GA. It wouldn't hurt for them, and other lobby groups, to have a larger membership base either. Strength through numbers.
I still think that there must be a way that operators can charge a reasonable fee for services, and pass a cut of the profit to the pilots and staff, by way of fair payment for a fair days work. It seems that what we have at the moment is a price war.
Anybody have any constructive criticism or advice? I'd be interested in hearing from some of the operators out there. It must sting to have to cut margins to the bone... Maybe it's just the times we live in, maybe it's more than that?