210's tips and tricks
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fellas,
Joke or no joke, and as fun as it might be, it is extremely irresponsible and illegal. It's a known fact that beatups close to the ground can allow the angle of attack (especially in a 210 due to laminar wing) to exceed the critical 16deg AoA.
This type of hooligan in an aircraft can be closely related to streetcar drag racers who have absolutlely no respect for themselves or the public.
The fact is that joking about it makes it seem more likely for someone to try it in order for respect. The instructor culture was clearly evident at Moorabbin back in the late 90's where instructors used to take over the student and fly at low level and do tower flypasts etc in Partenavias. These guys are now in Qantas and VB. Go figure!
What type of example are these guys showing to newbies whom are doing the exact same thing 5 years later out bush. This culture indirectly caused the accident that led to my mates death.
As Scrambler said, you might just get into an aircraft that has been doing aerobatics and find the wings fold up during a turn (these aircraft are getting older).
The 210 is a high performance single and should be treated as such. It can and will turn around and bite you if you don't treat it with respect!
OneBall2Many, it is only cool until you or your aircraft stuff up and then your dead!! The 210 is not even certified for spins so why push the boundaries! There are those that have and there are those that will!! Beatups are for d!ckHe@ds!
Joke or no joke, and as fun as it might be, it is extremely irresponsible and illegal. It's a known fact that beatups close to the ground can allow the angle of attack (especially in a 210 due to laminar wing) to exceed the critical 16deg AoA.
This type of hooligan in an aircraft can be closely related to streetcar drag racers who have absolutlely no respect for themselves or the public.
The fact is that joking about it makes it seem more likely for someone to try it in order for respect. The instructor culture was clearly evident at Moorabbin back in the late 90's where instructors used to take over the student and fly at low level and do tower flypasts etc in Partenavias. These guys are now in Qantas and VB. Go figure!
What type of example are these guys showing to newbies whom are doing the exact same thing 5 years later out bush. This culture indirectly caused the accident that led to my mates death.
As Scrambler said, you might just get into an aircraft that has been doing aerobatics and find the wings fold up during a turn (these aircraft are getting older).
The 210 is a high performance single and should be treated as such. It can and will turn around and bite you if you don't treat it with respect!
OneBall2Many, it is only cool until you or your aircraft stuff up and then your dead!! The 210 is not even certified for spins so why push the boundaries! There are those that have and there are those that will!! Beatups are for d!ckHe@ds!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spoilher,
Saying that ground proximity has any relevance to AOA is like saying that Aboriginal communities cause cyclones.
Whilst I'd never advocate flying aerobatics in a non aerobatic A/C I have indeed drag raced cars - legally. (shock horror)
Flying a "Beat up" or a flapless approach followed by a go-around is not illegal nor necessarily irresponsible. nor for that matter is a low level runway inspection. Nor are they aerobatic maneuvers, nor do they contravene the POH.
A PC9 is a high performance single, a 210 is a Cessna. A smooth and precise aircraft that's great for improving stick and rudder skills. There's no greater feeling than being able to fly an aircraft with great accuracy. Maybe these skills are useful in VB and QANTAS training. Go figure!!
Saying that ground proximity has any relevance to AOA is like saying that Aboriginal communities cause cyclones.
Whilst I'd never advocate flying aerobatics in a non aerobatic A/C I have indeed drag raced cars - legally. (shock horror)
Flying a "Beat up" or a flapless approach followed by a go-around is not illegal nor necessarily irresponsible. nor for that matter is a low level runway inspection. Nor are they aerobatic maneuvers, nor do they contravene the POH.
A PC9 is a high performance single, a 210 is a Cessna. A smooth and precise aircraft that's great for improving stick and rudder skills. There's no greater feeling than being able to fly an aircraft with great accuracy. Maybe these skills are useful in VB and QANTAS training. Go figure!!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frickman,
I think you and everybody else knows what I'm talking about with regard to beatups at low level.
I think we can say a beat up or a zoom climb is little different to a go around or runway inspection where usually you'd be flying slowly with gear and flap down! Son, please don't cover up by trying to tell me a beatup is like a normal procedure!
There is as you say a difference between flying responsibly and being negligent! That is all I am trying to get across here.
Your post "You haven't lived until you've done a beat-up at Belburn (to show the chopper pilots how it's done) strapped in a blue and white C210, nix pax... 2ft off the deck... full noise ...big smile." sounds very macho to me, much like being irresponsible!
That's what gets people killed!!
A PC9 is a high performance single compared with a 210, hence a 210 is high performance compared with a C152, all relative.
The aircraft we're talking about is the Cessna 210 which is a RELATIVELY high performance piston single and is why a lot of guys like to do beatup in it!
Have a read to some of these accidents from the ATSB:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=431
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...tail.cfm?ID=33
I just wonder if those that are now dead because of their stupid acts are turning in their graves by what comes out on here. cjam, if you've been witness to an accident like you said, then you should know better!!
I need to say no more!!
I think you and everybody else knows what I'm talking about with regard to beatups at low level.
I think we can say a beat up or a zoom climb is little different to a go around or runway inspection where usually you'd be flying slowly with gear and flap down! Son, please don't cover up by trying to tell me a beatup is like a normal procedure!
There is as you say a difference between flying responsibly and being negligent! That is all I am trying to get across here.
Your post "You haven't lived until you've done a beat-up at Belburn (to show the chopper pilots how it's done) strapped in a blue and white C210, nix pax... 2ft off the deck... full noise ...big smile." sounds very macho to me, much like being irresponsible!
That's what gets people killed!!
A PC9 is a high performance single compared with a 210, hence a 210 is high performance compared with a C152, all relative.
The aircraft we're talking about is the Cessna 210 which is a RELATIVELY high performance piston single and is why a lot of guys like to do beatup in it!
Have a read to some of these accidents from the ATSB:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=431
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...tail.cfm?ID=33
I just wonder if those that are now dead because of their stupid acts are turning in their graves by what comes out on here. cjam, if you've been witness to an accident like you said, then you should know better!!
I need to say no more!!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"That's what gets people killed!!"
Try dragging your arse around the central highlands of PNG for a few years and then tell me how dangerous it is to fly a bloody plane down a runway on the edge of the Tanami desert.
Time to get rid of the cardigan, sell the Volvo and stop hiding under the bed.....DAD!!
“I think you and everybody else knows what I'm talking about with regard to beatups at low level.”
What you’re doing is making global statements based on emotion.
Your premise is that everyone who has ever flown low over the ground in this manner is an “idiot”, “stupid”, a “hooligan”, “D!ckhead” and now “macho”.
Do you extend this thought to Ag pilots or airshow display pilots. How about RAF and RAAF pilots in WW2 who were renowned for not only low level straffing and bombing but also for beat ups (which often included a victory wobble for good measure) often these guys had less hours than some private pilots getting around today.
Quite frankly your ATSB examples don’t back up your statements, they back up the post by cjam if anything. These guys crashed on takeoff after not planning or really thinking. As I said almost any machine will kill you if you don't respect it.
Flying down a runway in a CONTROLLED environment in a PRECISE manner (ie planning, thinking, doing) is no more dangerous than taking off, landing or going around. Back when I did my CPL I had to demonstrate the ability to fly straight and level down the runway in a number of configurations as well as zoom climbs. These are not aerobatic nor are they rocket science. For that matter it’s no more dangerous than valley flying, mountain flying, or wet season flying, or flying around mountains in a wet season.
Try dragging your arse around the central highlands of PNG for a few years and then tell me how dangerous it is to fly a bloody plane down a runway on the edge of the Tanami desert.
Time to get rid of the cardigan, sell the Volvo and stop hiding under the bed.....DAD!!
“I think you and everybody else knows what I'm talking about with regard to beatups at low level.”
What you’re doing is making global statements based on emotion.
Your premise is that everyone who has ever flown low over the ground in this manner is an “idiot”, “stupid”, a “hooligan”, “D!ckhead” and now “macho”.
Do you extend this thought to Ag pilots or airshow display pilots. How about RAF and RAAF pilots in WW2 who were renowned for not only low level straffing and bombing but also for beat ups (which often included a victory wobble for good measure) often these guys had less hours than some private pilots getting around today.
Quite frankly your ATSB examples don’t back up your statements, they back up the post by cjam if anything. These guys crashed on takeoff after not planning or really thinking. As I said almost any machine will kill you if you don't respect it.
Flying down a runway in a CONTROLLED environment in a PRECISE manner (ie planning, thinking, doing) is no more dangerous than taking off, landing or going around. Back when I did my CPL I had to demonstrate the ability to fly straight and level down the runway in a number of configurations as well as zoom climbs. These are not aerobatic nor are they rocket science. For that matter it’s no more dangerous than valley flying, mountain flying, or wet season flying, or flying around mountains in a wet season.
Last edited by Frickman; 27th Apr 2005 at 14:18.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: away
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay I'm gonna be serious from now on, no more screwing around
Okay it didn't sound all that good and I apologise to those heartily offended.
In fact I haven't rolled a 210 at all, it was the beer talking... I was never keen on rolling it due to fear of folding wings.
I HAVE rolled a B-58 (the Baron type, not the Hustler...) but that was when I was younger and didn't understand the implications and did it for the sheer joy of it and did it well too. IE Less 'G' in the maneouvre than the maximum structural limit allows.
Flown properly a barrel roll is no big deal. A LOOP on the other hand, is out of the question. Maybe the guys getting so upset here are thinking of that?
I have also flown countless beat-ups as befitting a CPL of my age, ignorance, inexperience and passion for the job. I do not regret any of them escept the one the Chief Pilot witnessed.
Beat-ups are something everyone should be trained to do properly. Another name for it might be an "ALA Inspection". What's the difference??? I just can't see why some people are stridently freaking out about it.
No one's SERIOUSLY advocating unprofessional behavious or anti-airmanship.
As for professionalism nowadays, with my 12000 hrs, no accidents and left-seat heavy qual, I think I know when to be professional. Thanks for your tips anyway, Scrambler, I'm always keen to learn especially as you seem to have supreme judgement despite not knowing I was JOKING.
Can't anyone take a joke these days??? FIne I will never do it again.
Hey I thought a "high-performance" single is one where if you open the taps too fast, ya freakin' BLACK OUT!!!! Like an F-16....
210 = HP Single.... hehehe. Good one!!
In fact I haven't rolled a 210 at all, it was the beer talking... I was never keen on rolling it due to fear of folding wings.
I HAVE rolled a B-58 (the Baron type, not the Hustler...) but that was when I was younger and didn't understand the implications and did it for the sheer joy of it and did it well too. IE Less 'G' in the maneouvre than the maximum structural limit allows.
Flown properly a barrel roll is no big deal. A LOOP on the other hand, is out of the question. Maybe the guys getting so upset here are thinking of that?
I have also flown countless beat-ups as befitting a CPL of my age, ignorance, inexperience and passion for the job. I do not regret any of them escept the one the Chief Pilot witnessed.
Beat-ups are something everyone should be trained to do properly. Another name for it might be an "ALA Inspection". What's the difference??? I just can't see why some people are stridently freaking out about it.
No one's SERIOUSLY advocating unprofessional behavious or anti-airmanship.
As for professionalism nowadays, with my 12000 hrs, no accidents and left-seat heavy qual, I think I know when to be professional. Thanks for your tips anyway, Scrambler, I'm always keen to learn especially as you seem to have supreme judgement despite not knowing I was JOKING.
Can't anyone take a joke these days??? FIne I will never do it again.
Hey I thought a "high-performance" single is one where if you open the taps too fast, ya freakin' BLACK OUT!!!! Like an F-16....
210 = HP Single.... hehehe. Good one!!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: australia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mmmmmmmm......................blasting down the runway at bugger all feet in a controlled,accurate fashion???!!!
I don't know but.....20-25 year old aircraft, dodgy bros operation up north, dumb f..k cpl holder with a few hundred hours....recipe for a prang sooner or later.
Jeez, theres some dickheads in the world. We just met some of them above!
I don't know but.....20-25 year old aircraft, dodgy bros operation up north, dumb f..k cpl holder with a few hundred hours....recipe for a prang sooner or later.
Jeez, theres some dickheads in the world. We just met some of them above!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah oneball I bow my head, obviously you have 12 000 hours of GOOD LUCK with you, alas i havent gained that much experience! But i did believe i was Sh!t hot at one stage and bent an aeroplane. Lucky it wasn't showing off with a beat up. I do know a guy who is crippled for life believing he was sh!t hot.
We all know the difference between a runway inspection and a beat up.
I see your quote "Flown properly a barrel roll is no big deal" and to this i agree. Flown incorrectly it is a big deal. What people with your attitude are doing are encoraging someone who is younger to think they can do the same as you did.
For the C210 tips, Like all Cessna's (and can be said for many other aircraft) they appear to stall fairly docile, unless you stall the thing with slightly crossed controls, and this has happened many times, would you believe it after a beat up of friends etc. on the ground, the pilot pulls up to a high angle of attack and turns back towards the airport, looking back feeds in some opposite rudder, stalls one wing and spins from a low height, well above what was considered the aircraft stall speed.
We all know the difference between a runway inspection and a beat up.
I see your quote "Flown properly a barrel roll is no big deal" and to this i agree. Flown incorrectly it is a big deal. What people with your attitude are doing are encoraging someone who is younger to think they can do the same as you did.
For the C210 tips, Like all Cessna's (and can be said for many other aircraft) they appear to stall fairly docile, unless you stall the thing with slightly crossed controls, and this has happened many times, would you believe it after a beat up of friends etc. on the ground, the pilot pulls up to a high angle of attack and turns back towards the airport, looking back feeds in some opposite rudder, stalls one wing and spins from a low height, well above what was considered the aircraft stall speed.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bigfella5,
mmmmmmmmm.......there are some dickheads in the world....some of them instruct.
your comment on "a few hundred hours" has come from the bowels of your imagination. Try reading what I've posted.
mmmmmmmmm.......there are some dickheads in the world....some of them instruct.
your comment on "a few hundred hours" has come from the bowels of your imagination. Try reading what I've posted.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fella's fella's fella's.....I reckon we must be picturing different types of beat ups. We're not talking about belly skimming the grass and risking a prop strike with an arm out the window and rollie on the lip, just a nice low and fast beat up down the strip.....At least that is what I'm talking about.If you plan it and execute it accurately like any other sort of flying manouvre it isn't that dangerous. I'd rather have an engine failure in a 210 at 10ft doing 140kts over a strip than struggling over the trees at the threshold doing 80kts thats for sure.
spoilher, after witnessing that accident I do know better, I know not to do impulsive beat ups without thinking about the conditions first and I know not to change my plan of attack half way through...then again...being quite conservative I had always done that so really it just re-affirmed it for me.
Have to admit I'm glad to hear you didn't roll that 210 Oneball, I used to hate the creaks and groans those things gave when caught in the niggly stuff and wondered at the fact the aircraft had been doing it longer than I had been alive!
spoilher said;
"I think we can say a beat up or a zoom climb is little different to a go around or runway inspection where usually you'd be flying slowly with gear and flap down! "
I agree 100% that they are different but what are you saying???That you'd rather be low AND slow AND dirty?? lol . My Lord thats classic!...It reminds me of that joke..... Johnny has just been presented his wings at an RAAF passing out parade , his dear old mum who has always fretted after him gives him a hug and says "Now Johnny...don't go taking any risks, I want you to fly low and slow".
CJAM
PS Frick.....I thought all cyclones originated when the pub closed at Numbulwar??
spoilher, after witnessing that accident I do know better, I know not to do impulsive beat ups without thinking about the conditions first and I know not to change my plan of attack half way through...then again...being quite conservative I had always done that so really it just re-affirmed it for me.
Have to admit I'm glad to hear you didn't roll that 210 Oneball, I used to hate the creaks and groans those things gave when caught in the niggly stuff and wondered at the fact the aircraft had been doing it longer than I had been alive!
spoilher said;
"I think we can say a beat up or a zoom climb is little different to a go around or runway inspection where usually you'd be flying slowly with gear and flap down! "
I agree 100% that they are different but what are you saying???That you'd rather be low AND slow AND dirty?? lol . My Lord thats classic!...It reminds me of that joke..... Johnny has just been presented his wings at an RAAF passing out parade , his dear old mum who has always fretted after him gives him a hug and says "Now Johnny...don't go taking any risks, I want you to fly low and slow".
CJAM
PS Frick.....I thought all cyclones originated when the pub closed at Numbulwar??
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YES....the comments made my me on this thread are emotionally charged and would be for anyone after witnessing such an event. It is done so for the benefit of young inexperienced and perhaps bold pilots trying to please their mates who read these posts.
The only purpose of my posts is to discourage unresponsible flying in aircraft...... It's not worth it.
Frickman, I did not mean to attack you, but it sickens me to hear people encouraging 'cowboy flying'. I'd hate to hear of any more of these type of accidents. The bit about PNG in your post is irrelevant.
My version of a beat up or "a show" is a takeoff along the runway, gear up early, gain speed and then making an abrubt climb. I think a lot of other guys think the same.
A runway inspection on the other hand, as I have already said, is slow flight along the edge of the runway with gear and flap out to assess the runway condition and is normally covered during training.
As you mention.....the flying conducted at airshows where beatups are displayed, are normally conducted by very well selected and trained pilots and know the limitations of their aircraft extremely well. They are also permitted to do such flying after a lot of preparation and training. The guys doing 'beatups' out bush are normally aware that they should'nt doing it. Why, because it's an unnecesary risk.
Safety is all about minimizing the risk of a chain of events
cjam, the cyclone originates when you can't take that extra child out of Baniyala!!
The only purpose of my posts is to discourage unresponsible flying in aircraft...... It's not worth it.
Frickman, I did not mean to attack you, but it sickens me to hear people encouraging 'cowboy flying'. I'd hate to hear of any more of these type of accidents. The bit about PNG in your post is irrelevant.
My version of a beat up or "a show" is a takeoff along the runway, gear up early, gain speed and then making an abrubt climb. I think a lot of other guys think the same.
A runway inspection on the other hand, as I have already said, is slow flight along the edge of the runway with gear and flap out to assess the runway condition and is normally covered during training.
As you mention.....the flying conducted at airshows where beatups are displayed, are normally conducted by very well selected and trained pilots and know the limitations of their aircraft extremely well. They are also permitted to do such flying after a lot of preparation and training. The guys doing 'beatups' out bush are normally aware that they should'nt doing it. Why, because it's an unnecesary risk.
Safety is all about minimizing the risk of a chain of events
cjam, the cyclone originates when you can't take that extra child out of Baniyala!!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah that sounds about right heh heh....just realised I was picturing Borraloola when I said Numbulwar....man the locals used to go ape when the pub closed there....anyone still around those parts? Has it calmed down any?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fond memories of the 210. What? I SAY AGAIN...FOND MEMORIES OF THE 210. WHAT'S THAT? YOU CAN"T HEAR ME?
Picked up three drillers once on a hot day and they loaded their stuff (bedding, some clothes, spare boots) to come home. Seemingly no big deal with weight. Plane took most of the runway to get off the ground. Engine sounded fine. 40 miles later and we're still trying to get to altitude. Landed at destination to find a 5 gallon drum of drill bits weighing what seemed like half a tonne in the back. (I'm sure this has happened to many.)
Fueled from drum stock. One drum with a bad seal, stored upright in the open and many litres of water were pumped in too. Thought I had it drained. Rocked wing. Drained some more. Took off on good tank to make sure. An hour into the flight, changed tanks and within a couple of minutes, prop was windmilling. Changed tanks. Landed. Drained a few more litres. Took off again and the rest was uneventful, but still annoyed at having paid fuel prices for water.
Not recommended, but a beautiful aircraft on wet, soggy strips. There'd be a lot of people that will take issue with this these days. Hold the stick back and it will bust off the ground in no time. Just keep it in ground effect while building up speed before trying to climb away and raising the gear and flap. And on landing it can be held a few feet off the ground in ground effect with power to very low speeds and then cutting the throttle and dropping it onto the target. Don't try this out of ground effect at low altitudes though. The 210 will operate into places a Bonanza can only dream about. Great plane for the bush and long distances in comparison with other light singles.
Oh! And one more thing...make sure the seat is locked in place. On aircraft with worn seat tracks, the seat locking pin might not be seated properly almost guaranteeing a surprise on lift off. There will be a decision to be made...keep the hands on the control column or the feet on the rudder pedals, because you won't be able to do both.
Great for flying along beaches on beautiful days at 500ft. For some reason that might not be justified, the Bonanza was more comfortable and reassuring scud busting VFR in crappy weather. The Bonanza has better visibility in the direction of the turns and that might have something to do with it. BUT JUST FLY THE 210 WITH A GOOD SET OF HEADPHONES.
Picked up three drillers once on a hot day and they loaded their stuff (bedding, some clothes, spare boots) to come home. Seemingly no big deal with weight. Plane took most of the runway to get off the ground. Engine sounded fine. 40 miles later and we're still trying to get to altitude. Landed at destination to find a 5 gallon drum of drill bits weighing what seemed like half a tonne in the back. (I'm sure this has happened to many.)
Fueled from drum stock. One drum with a bad seal, stored upright in the open and many litres of water were pumped in too. Thought I had it drained. Rocked wing. Drained some more. Took off on good tank to make sure. An hour into the flight, changed tanks and within a couple of minutes, prop was windmilling. Changed tanks. Landed. Drained a few more litres. Took off again and the rest was uneventful, but still annoyed at having paid fuel prices for water.
Not recommended, but a beautiful aircraft on wet, soggy strips. There'd be a lot of people that will take issue with this these days. Hold the stick back and it will bust off the ground in no time. Just keep it in ground effect while building up speed before trying to climb away and raising the gear and flap. And on landing it can be held a few feet off the ground in ground effect with power to very low speeds and then cutting the throttle and dropping it onto the target. Don't try this out of ground effect at low altitudes though. The 210 will operate into places a Bonanza can only dream about. Great plane for the bush and long distances in comparison with other light singles.
Oh! And one more thing...make sure the seat is locked in place. On aircraft with worn seat tracks, the seat locking pin might not be seated properly almost guaranteeing a surprise on lift off. There will be a decision to be made...keep the hands on the control column or the feet on the rudder pedals, because you won't be able to do both.
Great for flying along beaches on beautiful days at 500ft. For some reason that might not be justified, the Bonanza was more comfortable and reassuring scud busting VFR in crappy weather. The Bonanza has better visibility in the direction of the turns and that might have something to do with it. BUT JUST FLY THE 210 WITH A GOOD SET OF HEADPHONES.
Last edited by Lodown; 28th Apr 2005 at 05:14.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spoilher,
Youre missing my point, firstly what you've described as a beat up is what I'd call a wet/short field technique as Lodown described and yeah I've done this many times, mostly out of necessity.
My idea of a beat up is a clean approach to the runway at a slightly lower than normal profile, at a stable high speed. Ease the aircraft down to the shreshold maintain straight and level, eyes outside, approaching end of rwy ease back on the controls, full power (if not already), attitude, eye on decreasing airspeed, at pre-selected airspeed lower nose to slightly below horizon, see ASI increasing, turn (Co-ordinated), wipe silly smile off face.
By controlled environment I meant, know the aircraft (how it responds at fingertip touch at all normal speeds & configuration etc) know the runway and surrounding area like the back of your hand and control any movements in area, know the met cond (nill wind, cool morning, no thermals), know when to abort.
My point about PNG flying is simply that you can find yourself close to terrain at the best of times, even at 10,000 ft (or higher) in cruise, or flying low up a valley to land on a one way rwy at the end of it, or making an immediate turn once airborne to avoid a mountain. The point is this requires a higher workload but it's not necessarily dangerous if you think, plan, and act with a basic degree of skill. And neither is flying down a level runway (Which is pretty mundane).
Flying close to the ground won't kill you - hitting the ground will kill you.
Pilots have ended up in cloud and dead because they were led to believe that flying low over the ground is the boogey man.
How many pilots have found themselves in a low level situation who would have benefited from practise in a sanitised environment like a runway?
Youre missing my point, firstly what you've described as a beat up is what I'd call a wet/short field technique as Lodown described and yeah I've done this many times, mostly out of necessity.
My idea of a beat up is a clean approach to the runway at a slightly lower than normal profile, at a stable high speed. Ease the aircraft down to the shreshold maintain straight and level, eyes outside, approaching end of rwy ease back on the controls, full power (if not already), attitude, eye on decreasing airspeed, at pre-selected airspeed lower nose to slightly below horizon, see ASI increasing, turn (Co-ordinated), wipe silly smile off face.
By controlled environment I meant, know the aircraft (how it responds at fingertip touch at all normal speeds & configuration etc) know the runway and surrounding area like the back of your hand and control any movements in area, know the met cond (nill wind, cool morning, no thermals), know when to abort.
My point about PNG flying is simply that you can find yourself close to terrain at the best of times, even at 10,000 ft (or higher) in cruise, or flying low up a valley to land on a one way rwy at the end of it, or making an immediate turn once airborne to avoid a mountain. The point is this requires a higher workload but it's not necessarily dangerous if you think, plan, and act with a basic degree of skill. And neither is flying down a level runway (Which is pretty mundane).
Flying close to the ground won't kill you - hitting the ground will kill you.
Pilots have ended up in cloud and dead because they were led to believe that flying low over the ground is the boogey man.
How many pilots have found themselves in a low level situation who would have benefited from practise in a sanitised environment like a runway?
Last edited by Frickman; 28th Apr 2005 at 11:25.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: away
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've lost track of who says what and how much outrage has been exhibited due which practice by whom.
Yes I've done some dodgy things but show me a GA pilot who HASN'T had some fun in a 210 and I'll show you a woman pilot.
I HAVEN'T rolled a 210 because whilst I may have been relatively clueless when I got my CPL, I wasn't THAT stupid.
Incidentally I was taught to fly an ALA inspection with flap down but gear UP. Was this wrong by todays beliefs???
So is flying down a strip beyond the safe touchdown point with gear and flap down a lot slower and therefore A LOT SAFER than a beat-up? If you crash the impact will ONLY JUST kill you, is that it?
I agree:
!. Ensure seat locked on the rails as a sudden extension to full-aft position during take off will make things tricky.
2. Baggage door can be closed in flight by either of above techniques. The baggage door latch on many 210s is DICKY.
3. Best not to apply too much 'G' to them unless you're an aeronautical engineer and know about the strengths of the two spars vs one spar and a strut.
4. Last things you do before getting in: Check the baggage door and check the fuel caps were replaced. Since they are on top of the (high) wing, you won't be able to see them in-flight and may not enjoy hours wondering if you put them back in or not as you nervously eye the guages. Ah, but that's one of the many pleasures of GA....
5. Keep an eye on the ammeter. Those dicky Cessna guages are hard to read accurately and a slight but constant discharge from the battery may go un-noticed in-flight due to fat needles, small scales and parallax error.
6. Try to maintain balanced flight when extending the gear on those models that have gear doors.
7. The CofG moves AFT with fuel burn. Beware on heavily-laden freight runs or with FAT rig-pigs aboard.
8. Rock the wing a few minutes before that fuel/water check.
9. Never trust a passenger (even if he has a licence himself) to lock the door. Close and lock it yourself.
Also:
10. Fly a flapless approach now and then. You never know when an electrics failure will force you to carry out this very scenario.
11. No comment on EFATO practices. But I will say that I was always confident I could hack it with a cut at low altitude.
12. Practice the odd stall recovery when nice and high because you don't want your last experience (prior to your FINAL experience) to have been with Joe Grade2 at the dero club 4 years ago.
13. Practice a rapid descent now and then when alone for that day when you realise the thing has caught fire and you want to be on the ground NOW.
Things I may have done but DO NOT recommend here, for airmanship reasons and because they were DUMB:
-Amusing myself with smooth landings by watching the main gear out the window during touchdown.
-Sitting in the middle seat during cruise (empty sector) with the hand-mike stretched all the way out and speaker on, laughing my head off.
-Letting cute female teachers attempt to land the thing at outback strips. (I only tried that once...)
-Ridiculously low flying.
-Applying zero-g and attempting to float the water bottle from the back seat to the front seat.
On Beat-Ups:
The WORST beat up I ever did was my last flght in a 210. It was almost the last flight for my pax too. Yes it was dumb but so was I at the time.
After departing the place with 5 pax and gear, they (frequent pax whom I knew) suggested I beat the hell out of the place as a farewell and so, needing little encouragement at the worst of times, I proceeded to do so.
As I "rolled in", and began to pull out of the very shallow dive and despite climb power being set (25", 2500 RPM, I think it was) , I noticed the IAS was not as high as I hoped it might be. This was due to the 5 fat f**kers I was carrying plus all their cr@p.
More alarmingly, I also noticed the tail-heavy state was making longitudinal stability somewhat less than ideal. In what may have been my only good decision that year, I elected to give it away and begin a gentle pull-up but due to slight, almost phugoid porpoising the recovery was not as rapid as I would've liked and we ended up passing quite low over "the crowd" and nearby microwave tower anyway.
After the initial realisation that all had not been as well as it should've been, my main concern was that the quality of the beat-up was lacking. Obviously I had a lot to learn about common sense despite graduating from Phase 1 of GA with over 3000 hrs.
Incidentally, I later heard the onlookers had been "quite impressed".
"I learned a lot about flying from that."
So there it is, slag me off if you want, I don't care. I laid it all out for the new gen to possibly learn from and also because I was abused into it by those who think they know what kind of pilot I am. Sunfish, if you learn from my mistakes and lessons, I will be impressed. But if all you can do is cast aspersions on my professionalism based on throwaway lines posted here then you are a fool.
I'm older and wiser now and probably wouldn't do many of the things I used to anymore, given another shot at GA. I fly a wide-body these days and yes, frightening as it may seem, I fly from the LH seat. All this means is I survived GA and went on to rack up many hours sitting on my @rse in other aircraft types without screwing up too much. But I have never forgotten the lessons learnt in GA, not the least of which is good judgement and sound decision-making.
Everyone who loves flying will do something astoundingly stupid when left alone with an aircraft he didn't pay for himself and if it only happens once then he is exceptionally bright or exceptionally unlucky.
.
Yes I've done some dodgy things but show me a GA pilot who HASN'T had some fun in a 210 and I'll show you a woman pilot.
I HAVEN'T rolled a 210 because whilst I may have been relatively clueless when I got my CPL, I wasn't THAT stupid.
Incidentally I was taught to fly an ALA inspection with flap down but gear UP. Was this wrong by todays beliefs???
So is flying down a strip beyond the safe touchdown point with gear and flap down a lot slower and therefore A LOT SAFER than a beat-up? If you crash the impact will ONLY JUST kill you, is that it?
I agree:
!. Ensure seat locked on the rails as a sudden extension to full-aft position during take off will make things tricky.
2. Baggage door can be closed in flight by either of above techniques. The baggage door latch on many 210s is DICKY.
3. Best not to apply too much 'G' to them unless you're an aeronautical engineer and know about the strengths of the two spars vs one spar and a strut.
4. Last things you do before getting in: Check the baggage door and check the fuel caps were replaced. Since they are on top of the (high) wing, you won't be able to see them in-flight and may not enjoy hours wondering if you put them back in or not as you nervously eye the guages. Ah, but that's one of the many pleasures of GA....
5. Keep an eye on the ammeter. Those dicky Cessna guages are hard to read accurately and a slight but constant discharge from the battery may go un-noticed in-flight due to fat needles, small scales and parallax error.
6. Try to maintain balanced flight when extending the gear on those models that have gear doors.
7. The CofG moves AFT with fuel burn. Beware on heavily-laden freight runs or with FAT rig-pigs aboard.
8. Rock the wing a few minutes before that fuel/water check.
9. Never trust a passenger (even if he has a licence himself) to lock the door. Close and lock it yourself.
Also:
10. Fly a flapless approach now and then. You never know when an electrics failure will force you to carry out this very scenario.
11. No comment on EFATO practices. But I will say that I was always confident I could hack it with a cut at low altitude.
12. Practice the odd stall recovery when nice and high because you don't want your last experience (prior to your FINAL experience) to have been with Joe Grade2 at the dero club 4 years ago.
13. Practice a rapid descent now and then when alone for that day when you realise the thing has caught fire and you want to be on the ground NOW.
Things I may have done but DO NOT recommend here, for airmanship reasons and because they were DUMB:
-Amusing myself with smooth landings by watching the main gear out the window during touchdown.
-Sitting in the middle seat during cruise (empty sector) with the hand-mike stretched all the way out and speaker on, laughing my head off.
-Letting cute female teachers attempt to land the thing at outback strips. (I only tried that once...)
-Ridiculously low flying.
-Applying zero-g and attempting to float the water bottle from the back seat to the front seat.
On Beat-Ups:
The WORST beat up I ever did was my last flght in a 210. It was almost the last flight for my pax too. Yes it was dumb but so was I at the time.
After departing the place with 5 pax and gear, they (frequent pax whom I knew) suggested I beat the hell out of the place as a farewell and so, needing little encouragement at the worst of times, I proceeded to do so.
As I "rolled in", and began to pull out of the very shallow dive and despite climb power being set (25", 2500 RPM, I think it was) , I noticed the IAS was not as high as I hoped it might be. This was due to the 5 fat f**kers I was carrying plus all their cr@p.
More alarmingly, I also noticed the tail-heavy state was making longitudinal stability somewhat less than ideal. In what may have been my only good decision that year, I elected to give it away and begin a gentle pull-up but due to slight, almost phugoid porpoising the recovery was not as rapid as I would've liked and we ended up passing quite low over "the crowd" and nearby microwave tower anyway.
After the initial realisation that all had not been as well as it should've been, my main concern was that the quality of the beat-up was lacking. Obviously I had a lot to learn about common sense despite graduating from Phase 1 of GA with over 3000 hrs.
Incidentally, I later heard the onlookers had been "quite impressed".
"I learned a lot about flying from that."
So there it is, slag me off if you want, I don't care. I laid it all out for the new gen to possibly learn from and also because I was abused into it by those who think they know what kind of pilot I am. Sunfish, if you learn from my mistakes and lessons, I will be impressed. But if all you can do is cast aspersions on my professionalism based on throwaway lines posted here then you are a fool.
I'm older and wiser now and probably wouldn't do many of the things I used to anymore, given another shot at GA. I fly a wide-body these days and yes, frightening as it may seem, I fly from the LH seat. All this means is I survived GA and went on to rack up many hours sitting on my @rse in other aircraft types without screwing up too much. But I have never forgotten the lessons learnt in GA, not the least of which is good judgement and sound decision-making.
Everyone who loves flying will do something astoundingly stupid when left alone with an aircraft he didn't pay for himself and if it only happens once then he is exceptionally bright or exceptionally unlucky.
.
Last edited by OneBall...; 28th Apr 2005 at 10:58.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just had a read of the last post by oneball, yep we have all done some stupid things, most of us survived them. Good on you for dropping them in here. Lots of good lessons there, if one person heeds the advice of things not to do it will be a bonus. I did see a beat up done in the not too distant past at a fly in by a very experienced pilot. Very impressive. Not so impressive were the three other less experienced pilots who decided to copy and try and out do him. what was this post about again?
Check Attitude
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To the death defying stunt pilots contributing here.
Please read my earlier post on the ugly side of this magnificent aeroplane.
A power-on stall, particularly in the landing config, will result in a sudden flick roll to the left
and typically a stunningly rapid loss of a thousand feet attempting a recovery.
The laminar flow wing suddenly, not progressively, stalls, the torque effect of that big single engine,
the P effect, the shock of what's happening, all contribute to an ugly outcome.
With training and practice, this can be reduced to 750' and eventually 350' IF YOU KNOW it's going to happen.
So if you lose it showing off, you will need at least 1,000' of air below you or you will become a contract miner or land clearer.
There have been no Cessna 210/206 "beat-up" induced fatalities for two years, lets keep it that way.
Prior to that, wander through the ATSB reports. Some have stalled in a go around with similar results.
This is not an aeroplane that you would want to inadvertently stall.
There are certain scenarios where it will do just that. (overshooting base to final - fatal, go around at low speed and attempting to turn too early).
Understand this and avoid the risk by being conscious of the consequences.
Those who chose to ignore the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them.
And for the stunt pilots, you're really wasting your time, you cannot, after 100 years of aviation,
create an accident so unique that it hasn't already been attempted.
Your death will not distinguish your efforts.
There will always be, in the formative years of a pilot's career,
a natural desire to explore the envelope of flight.
The adrenalin rush of low flying at high speed.
The untrained attempts at aerobatic manoeuvres in non-aerobatic aircraft, all prompted by testosterone.
By all means indulge these desires, but in the right equipment, with the right training, in the right place.
Get it out of your system, or become a professional aerobatic pilot or an Ag pilot. The death toll there is a considered risk.
Flying a normal category aircraft in a normal commercial environment should not be death defying,
nor more risky than driving a car.
We all suffer from the failed exploits of the stunt pilots, our industry is harmed, our profession is harmed and for what?
Fly the 210, enjoy it the sheer pleasure of it's capabilities and respect it's limitations.
Please read my earlier post on the ugly side of this magnificent aeroplane.
A power-on stall, particularly in the landing config, will result in a sudden flick roll to the left
and typically a stunningly rapid loss of a thousand feet attempting a recovery.
The laminar flow wing suddenly, not progressively, stalls, the torque effect of that big single engine,
the P effect, the shock of what's happening, all contribute to an ugly outcome.
With training and practice, this can be reduced to 750' and eventually 350' IF YOU KNOW it's going to happen.
So if you lose it showing off, you will need at least 1,000' of air below you or you will become a contract miner or land clearer.
There have been no Cessna 210/206 "beat-up" induced fatalities for two years, lets keep it that way.
Prior to that, wander through the ATSB reports. Some have stalled in a go around with similar results.
This is not an aeroplane that you would want to inadvertently stall.
There are certain scenarios where it will do just that. (overshooting base to final - fatal, go around at low speed and attempting to turn too early).
Understand this and avoid the risk by being conscious of the consequences.
Those who chose to ignore the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them.
And for the stunt pilots, you're really wasting your time, you cannot, after 100 years of aviation,
create an accident so unique that it hasn't already been attempted.
Your death will not distinguish your efforts.
There will always be, in the formative years of a pilot's career,
a natural desire to explore the envelope of flight.
The adrenalin rush of low flying at high speed.
The untrained attempts at aerobatic manoeuvres in non-aerobatic aircraft, all prompted by testosterone.
By all means indulge these desires, but in the right equipment, with the right training, in the right place.
Get it out of your system, or become a professional aerobatic pilot or an Ag pilot. The death toll there is a considered risk.
Flying a normal category aircraft in a normal commercial environment should not be death defying,
nor more risky than driving a car.
We all suffer from the failed exploits of the stunt pilots, our industry is harmed, our profession is harmed and for what?
Fly the 210, enjoy it the sheer pleasure of it's capabilities and respect it's limitations.