Flight Standards GA Ready Course

[Global Aviator]

My reference to check flight means, let’s go for a couple of circuits to see how you perform/ learn. Then we got into the real stuff if suitable.

Just like an airline interview sim, out of GA and into a 737/747/A320 Sim check ride, ya not expected to nail it, but you are expected to learn.

If a fresh CPL has the right attitude and willingness to learn then why would t you as a company invest time and money?

So blowing 5k on a GA ready course… As I said it’s as bad as that company charging for check flight/ interview flights!

[Clare Prop]

I agree with the two above, that a one-size-fits-all course is the reason that a lot of pilots DON'T have all the skills they need. They don't go beyond a smallish distance from base, they have probably never pushed any boundaries, they have probably never had a bit of a fright in an aircraft, something you don''t want for the first time with a load of passengers on board in unfamiliar weather and terrain. They aren't prepared for any of that in the very sheltered and strictly controlled integrated courses. Someone who has hired an aeroplane and gone out hour building under their own steam is more likely to have varied experience. BUt these days the few schools that provide this training are being swamped by the sausage factories, who are also swamping the very limited ATC resources.

So is a one-size fits-all GA ready course any better? Probably not. But it should't all fall on the shoulders of the operator either...especially as those pilots will be gone like a rat out of an aquaduct as soon as they can.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Originally Posted by dr dre

I never remembered these $5k courses in past times. Operators interviewed new pilots, selected those suitable and gave them the C210 training and local experience they needed til they were ready to do the job alone. So why is it a necessity now?

It's not necessary. For some people, it will be a help especially if they have no C206/C210 time and they don't stand out from the other DA40 trained cleanskins.

It's a different world mate.

[Xeptu]

In my experience it's like observing a driver in a car and you just know it won't be long before that vehicle has panel damage. You don't know the driver or how long he or she has been driving, but you just know. Pilots are no different.

Common sense and risk management is something you have or don't have. You can provide guidance but it cannot be learnt. You can observe a bunch of guys wading through an obstacle course an pick the ones less likely to emerge unscathed.

[Prattnwho]

Originally Posted by Xeptu

Common sense and risk management is something you have or don't have. You can provide guidance but it cannot be learnt. You can observe a bunch of guys wading through an obstacle course an pick the ones less likely to emerge unscathed.

Hazardous attitudes are one thing but risk management is a separate entity on its own and is absolutely a piloting skillset we all develop with experience, ideally under good mentors. People don't just finish high school or even a CPL as ideal "risk managers" ... we all learn how to make safe decisions and manage evolving risks to flight throughout our careers. Risk management is not some kind of innate "ya born with feathers or ya not" trait. Sure there might be personal attitudes that impact your risk management abilities but you can't pigeon hole CPLs into "risk managers" or not.

I totally agree though that a motivation to learn, be a team player and respond well to critical feedback are far less teachable traits and things an employer would want to see in a new pilot. These GA ready courses might not teach these skills or any "common sense" but they might just make your "5 hours minimum on 200 series" much more valuable with mentorship and exposure to airfields or weather they haven't had prior or wouldn't otherwise do if they hired the machine on their own. It doesn't sound like this course exists to replace a company ICUS or line training program but rather to give some real world context to the plastic-fantastic trained CPLs. Worth it? For some maybe for others maybe not!

[Climb150]

I remember not long ago doing some ICUS with a new person in Cairns. Tower asked us to follow the dash 8. I was then asked "which one is a dash 8?".

Next flight was told to follow the 717. Didn't know what that looked like either.

During this persons training they had never, done a fuel drain, put oil in the engine, signed the MR or fueled the plane by themselves. Apparently only instructors were allowed to do these things.

Some people need a lot more than a few hours in a 210.

[lucille]

Originally Posted by Climb150

I remember not long ago doing some ICUS with a new person in Cairns. Tower asked us to follow the dash 8. I was then asked "which one is a dash 8?".

Next flight was told to follow the 717. Didn't know what that looked like either.

During this persons training they had never, done a fuel drain, put oil in the engine, signed the MR or fueled the plane by themselves. Apparently only instructors were allowed to do these things.

Some people need a lot more than a few hours in a 210.

Beggars belief that any aspiring commercial pilot not know what every other aircraft looks like. Weren’t we all avid plane spotters to some degree at some point in our careers?

“During this persons training they had never, done a fuel drain, put oil in the engine, signed the MR or fueled the plane by themselves. Apparently only instructors were allowed to do these things.”

Flight school probably sick and tired of this generation of entitled, honey badger clientele finds it easier to get an accountable employee to do the dirty work to make sure it’s done correctly. Cant say I blame them. And being unable to recognize a Dash 8 or a 717 pretty much puts them in that category. Ahh well, he or she is probably a gun hand at selfies and social media.

[megan]

Beggars belief that any aspiring commercial pilot not know what every other aircraft looks like

Depends on the exposure a person has had. Was doing instrument training with the company C&T and joining the 26 circuit downwind at Essendon for a visual and were told to follow the red Aztec, had him visual but the C&T had no idea what an Aztec was and fretted that I knew what I was talking about, he had come from a military background, P-51 and Meteor in the Korean war, Huey in Vietnam, later C-130, then our very cloistered company which didn't mix with the broader aviation comunity. Went on to CASA as an FOI.

[Duck Pilot]

If the CASA Part 61 MOS syllabus of training was correct for the current industry demands, the additional training wouldn’t be required.

Unless the trainee pilots have been trained by competent instructors with industry experience in legacy/vintage aeroplanes, the green horn freshly minted CPL holders will have absolutely no idea how to handle a full load of passengers and a Cessna 207 on a 35 degree afternoon out of Kununurra, or the Rock doing a scenic, let alone dealing with a bunch of drunks trying to smuggle grog to Port Keats hidden in baby diapers 🤣

[lucille]

Originally Posted by Duck Pilot

Unless the trainee pilots have been trained by competent instructors with industry experience in legacy/vintage aeroplanes, …..

I’m sure you can dig up one or two cases of the existence of such instructors, but the reality has always been the opposite. Instructing has always been the play ground of hour builders too “refined” to get their hands dirty with a charter job up north.

[megan]

Instructing has always been the play ground of hour builders too “refined” to get their hands dirty with a charter job up north

Decades ago was visiting Tamworth when QF cadets were going through. Two Sydney lads had been given their two year GA assignment to an operator in Darwin, both refused to go, excuse being it was a %&^$ hole with no off duty pursuits available. Always wondered how their QF career turned out.

[chair711]

Hey, how have you gone with finding a job? I'm looking at heading up north early next year and was wondering if you had any tips for catching the first gig, also did you find work easily in Darwin or have to move more inland?

[Mach E Avelli]

Originally Posted by megan

Decades ago was visiting Tamworth when QF cadets were going through. Two Sydney lads had been given their two year GA assignment to an operator in Darwin, both refused to go, excuse being it was a %&^$ hole with no off duty pursuits available. Always wondered how their QF career turned out.

Such vision and decisiveness probably had them fast tracked to management

[runway16]

There are a few things that a lot of the new bees forget or never learnt.
Aviation, general aviation in particular, only gets small returns on investment.
That means that are there costs that can be avoided. Saying that a new or possible new employer
should shoulder the cost of taking a guy or gal who has a bare DA40 CPL with 200 hours and never been off a sealed runway and teach them all they need to know to become a safe, note that word safe, is very expensive. It means that said employer has to allocate a competent check and training pilot to bring the wanna bee up to standard.
That costs big time in aircraft hours, man power, fuel etc.

The responsibility for all that should be the cost built into the flying school instruction not a charter operator.
The comment by so many is that the employer should do all that job ready training at his expense.

Why do that when if said employer goes through the rubbish bin of applications, or shakes the the local tree that pilots in waiting reside in he will get a pilot with all the tickets who has done the real work to be the right pilot for the job with little more than a thorough Q&A session and briefing and a basic check flight on the type to be used.

Two more things come to mind. Flying schools teach the bare minimum to get a CPL. Usually on a non commercial use aircraft type. The usual spin is get a CPL with us and you will quickly get you a pilot job and get paid big dollars. And I live in dream land.
Did I mention having a VET Fee Loan of money to pay back? Does the budding want to be have charts for the selected area? Done a first aid course? Done any kind of aircraft maintenance? Got a Dangerous Goods Awareness Certificate?
Done a water drill course? Landed off sealed runways? Knows how to do a quick W&B trim sheet?

Next please!

R

[Clare Prop]

Not all flying schools teach the bare minimum. There are still some of us who teach them how to do the job not just tick the boxes to keep the VET gravy train on the rails. We don't use plastic aeroplanes or dress our pre-solo students up like airline captains, we prepare them for their first job by making sure they have already got command time on types and in areas that will be relevant and get them entworking as they build their hours and they are ready to get their hands dirty..
This has been a busy week of people dropping off identical resumes.

[nomess]

It’s also up to the student to not want to be taught the bare minimum. I understand VET courses are tied to a tight syllabus, however it’s your money at the end of the day.

Actively seek out a 182, a 206, don’t leave a MPPC endo until right before a test just to tick the mins, get some experience. If you have never flown steam gauges, find one, learn it, as that’s important to me when sorting the pile. If you’re lucky and have some remote airspace nearby, take a 182 or 206 out for some practice charter runs whilst hour building.

[Xeptu]

Now that it is all pretty much over and only fly the company kingair when I feel like it. I look back at my humble beginnings and ask myself what is experience.
When I started out at age 20 I had no intention of being an Airline Pilot, I just liked flying. From the single piston engined aircraft right through to the heavy jet, I would describe each stage as a new experience. From the highlands of PNG, to Aero Medical to Airlines. When did I become experienced. Which parts of what I know should be shared and how do we do that in any meaningful way that is going to make a difference to anyone else. Mostly I find myself amongst a group of people that don't know what we don't know.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by nomess

It’s also up to the student to not want to be taught the bare minimum. I understand VET courses are tied to a tight syllabus, however it’s your money at the end of the day.

Actively seek out a 182, a 206, don’t leave a MPPC endo until right before a test just to tick the mins, get some experience. If you have never flown steam gauges, find one, learn it, as that’s important to me when sorting the pile. If you’re lucky and have some remote airspace nearby, take a 182 or 206 out for some practice charter runs whilst hour building.

Sadly, they don't know what they don't know. They go for the slick sales talk, plastic aeroplanes with glass panels "Because that is what you will have to use in your first pilot job", "look at me" epaulettes and many don't realise there is any other way to train as a pilot than the sausage factory brochure. These people are very good at accessing taxpayers money, the student is just the conduit. They aren't going to tell them there is any alternative that competes with their business model.

[The Wawa Zone]

What's in the syllabus ? Has anyone here actually done the course and can comment ? Seems not.

Since it's in Darwin, we assume it's aimed at potential Northern Australian C210 drivers, so what does it need to contain ?
It would need:
1. Aboriginal people and how they do their cultural stuff (very important, and not the woke ****) that leads to good communication with them, how they pay or don't pay for charters, and booze, drugs and kava (is kava still a thing?). Includes where / how to get language skills when the time and place dictates.
2. Any clown can fly a C210 out of YPDN, and maybe land it somewhere. Does the course teach low level DR nav, doing timed low circuits and getting onto the runway from any point in the circuit area when you can't see half of it due rain. When I was training new guys, they spent the first 5 hours at about 300'AGL with a map.
3. Flying a C210. You'll get it nailed within 5 hours then at about 100 hours you'll figure out you're still learning about it's weird little ways. Why ? Cover the most common C210 prang - the fast on finals and the ground effect float and belly flop, then banana-shaped C210. Why ? Also cover the stall speed dependence on CG position and why, and how that affects the P-chart.
4. Sch 8 pilot maintenance. Yes, you are going to do stuff on the aircraft at least so you can describe defects to the engineers in Darwin if you're in Bickerton or maybe even Marrgarrlitjbann.
5. Flight and Duty. Yes, Duty times might get to 95, even though you're actually on 140. Human factors.
6. Ops Manuals and inserts, SOP, role of CP, scheduling, Ops Manager, Senior Base, and how all that fits together practically. Somehow it gets glossed over in Air Law (and also in company induction, pilots tend to discover it all bit by bit in hushed tones).
7. Management. How to deal with them, and how to work with what you've got factoring in that most are not all there.
8. Single pilot bases and how to keep everything CASA-friendly when they drop in to see you and do remote area ramp checks.

I've got more stuff in a four page indoctrination document I wrote years ago for new guys. Some of it is pretty ugly. Some new pilots didn't need it. I'll try and find it and add some more points to the above.
Some good points, that should be in the course, in the nearby thread C210 general flying procedures
The best advice I ever heard about the C210 was to treat it like a big fast touring road bike, ie., treat it like a trail bike and you're dead. A few people tried the latter back in the day and the thing got away from them and did precisely that.

This course would need to cover the above points at least, and would need to be taught by someone who's spent a Wet/Dry out in the bush. If these are not covered in the written syllabus then avoid, and spend your money on something useful.

N'amirri yalala, butello mala wawa's !

[Flying Bear]

Thanks Wawa, that's actually some really good advice.

Happily, much of what you list there is raised in the course within the context of scenarios during the fly-away exercise. This month (tonight!), the fly away component is doing their overnight in Galiwin'ku (I'm sure you know it well!) where they will spend the afternoon & evening with our team (about four or five pilots flying C310 / C210) there at Marthakal Yolngu. The idea of that is so the pilots on the course can gain insight into much of the cultural aspects by actually being in a community for a period, but also through interactions with the pilots in location who are maybe 6-12 months into their careers & are actually "living the dream" you have identified.

Depending on availability of accommodation (difficult in the communities), the overnight can spend the night in Jabiru with our Kakadu Air team, who also work closely with the TOs & land management councils - so the interactions here are beneficial as well. Nevertheless, flying into the community / outstation strips through the Arnhemland area & homelands is often an eye-opener for the balanda pilots newly moved from the eastern states!

We have always struggled to get the idea across that this course is less about simple C210 time than it is about learning about what is involved in the job & how to do it. As a CP myself, along with another CP, we work hard to provide as broad an insight as we can into the 1-2 week period that the course runs across. Essentially, the focus is on stuff that the sausage factories just have no idea about...

Nevertheless, appreciate the constructive post & will certainly review the course focus against what you've described - and although I probably have it somewhere, I'd be happy to receive the notes you compiled or see them up on here.

Feel free to PM or e-mail me.