Run-ups during a flight
Thread Starter
Run-ups during a flight
… well not exactly, I couldn’t think of a better title.
So let’s just say you’re on an AFR flight (I chose AFR to make the scenario more black and white).
You took off from Essendon and you flew to Moorabbin and were cleared to the apron. With engine still running, you check your maps and route, clean up, get the information and taxi out with your clearance to the holding point which is on the way past the run-up bay.
Your instructor says go straight to the holding point for the runways and do some checks there which you assume include a run-up. As you approach the holding point, you do a control check and all is good. You then set up to do a quick run-up and the instructor tells you not to do it.
You say that you want to do a run-up and the instructor clearly tells you not to, giving the advice that nothing with the engine has changed during the flight, it hasn’t been shut down and it’s not necessary to do a run-up.
Do you:
- Take the instructors advice and not do it?
- Tell the instructor you’re doing it anyway and just do it?
- Something else?
Remember you are a licensed pilot with a current AFR.
Side note: On such a flight where you don’t shut down the engine, would you always do a mag check before departing again?
So let’s just say you’re on an AFR flight (I chose AFR to make the scenario more black and white).
You took off from Essendon and you flew to Moorabbin and were cleared to the apron. With engine still running, you check your maps and route, clean up, get the information and taxi out with your clearance to the holding point which is on the way past the run-up bay.
Your instructor says go straight to the holding point for the runways and do some checks there which you assume include a run-up. As you approach the holding point, you do a control check and all is good. You then set up to do a quick run-up and the instructor tells you not to do it.
You say that you want to do a run-up and the instructor clearly tells you not to, giving the advice that nothing with the engine has changed during the flight, it hasn’t been shut down and it’s not necessary to do a run-up.
Do you:
- Take the instructors advice and not do it?
- Tell the instructor you’re doing it anyway and just do it?
- Something else?
Remember you are a licensed pilot with a current AFR.
Side note: On such a flight where you don’t shut down the engine, would you always do a mag check before departing again?
In Charter (I suspect this is where you are coming from) it is common practice to do the run-ups once, unless you suspect there's something amiss.
...but as a CASA FOI once pointed out to me, "I've never seen a piston engine POH that says only do the Run-ups once per day...."
...but as a CASA FOI once pointed out to me, "I've never seen a piston engine POH that says only do the Run-ups once per day...."
The following users liked this post:
Apologies for answering a question with some questions, but:
What do you expect to learn from a 'run up' check that you won't learn as soon as you apply (what you think is) full power or can't learn without a 'run up'?
To put this question another way:
When in the last - let's say two decades - has anyone discovered, during 'run ups', that a CSU unit on an 'average' GA aircraft is malfunctioning in a way that will pose a risk to safety, which malfunction wouldn't become evident as soon as full power is applied? I'm not aware of anyone. I know my CSU will fail 'full fine' and, in the unlikely event that the engine 'overspeeds', I can easily deal with that. Both are 'fail safe' problems.
When in the last - let's say two decades - has anyone discovered, during 'run ups', that there's a magneto or sparkplug malfunction that would not become evident from selecting each magneto, individually, at idle/taxi revs? Not me. (Don't tell anyone, but I usually do my magneto and sparkplug checks at cruise power in the cruise, just before TOD, but only after the engine 'numbers' were all normal during take off - that's why I 'made it' to the cruise. Cruise power at altitude is where developing ignition problems will first show up.)
Carby heat? Discuss.
Who's the pilot in command of your hypothetical flight?
What do you expect to learn from a 'run up' check that you won't learn as soon as you apply (what you think is) full power or can't learn without a 'run up'?
To put this question another way:
When in the last - let's say two decades - has anyone discovered, during 'run ups', that a CSU unit on an 'average' GA aircraft is malfunctioning in a way that will pose a risk to safety, which malfunction wouldn't become evident as soon as full power is applied? I'm not aware of anyone. I know my CSU will fail 'full fine' and, in the unlikely event that the engine 'overspeeds', I can easily deal with that. Both are 'fail safe' problems.
When in the last - let's say two decades - has anyone discovered, during 'run ups', that there's a magneto or sparkplug malfunction that would not become evident from selecting each magneto, individually, at idle/taxi revs? Not me. (Don't tell anyone, but I usually do my magneto and sparkplug checks at cruise power in the cruise, just before TOD, but only after the engine 'numbers' were all normal during take off - that's why I 'made it' to the cruise. Cruise power at altitude is where developing ignition problems will first show up.)
Carby heat? Discuss.
Who's the pilot in command of your hypothetical flight?
Last edited by Clinton McKenzie; 15th Feb 2024 at 08:26.
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter
Time poor so answering the easiest question.
I am the pilot in command and fully licenced with current AFR and current on the aircraft.
The AFR is a learning exercise for the pilot, so when the instructor tells you to do or not to do something, do you simply disagree or stop and discuss it? I guess this is why CRM is important,
even at the low end of the GA spectrum.
I am the pilot in command and fully licenced with current AFR and current on the aircraft.
The AFR is a learning exercise for the pilot, so when the instructor tells you to do or not to do something, do you simply disagree or stop and discuss it? I guess this is why CRM is important,
even at the low end of the GA spectrum.
In that case, as PIC, do whatever you consider necessary in the interests of the safety of air navigation.
If the instructor on board is rushing you or pushing you to do something you do not reckon is in the interests of safety, do your 'PIC thang'. If you're being coerced into to doing something your judgement says you shouldn't be doing, and you do it, you've failed the 'PIC thang'.
(If you want to know what's causally connected with the safety of air navigation, in the case of 'run-ups', let me know upon what engine and propeller your life depends.)
If the instructor on board is rushing you or pushing you to do something you do not reckon is in the interests of safety, do your 'PIC thang'. If you're being coerced into to doing something your judgement says you shouldn't be doing, and you do it, you've failed the 'PIC thang'.
(If you want to know what's causally connected with the safety of air navigation, in the case of 'run-ups', let me know upon what engine and propeller your life depends.)
Time poor so answering the easiest question.
I am the pilot in command and fully licenced with current AFR and current on the aircraft.
The AFR is a learning exercise for the pilot, so when the instructor tells you to do or not to do something, do you simply disagree or stop and discuss it? I guess this is why CRM is important,
even at the low end of the GA spectrum.
I am the pilot in command and fully licenced with current AFR and current on the aircraft.
The AFR is a learning exercise for the pilot, so when the instructor tells you to do or not to do something, do you simply disagree or stop and discuss it? I guess this is why CRM is important,
even at the low end of the GA spectrum.
The following 2 users liked this post by Cloudee:
Arguing the toss with another crewmember on any flight is bad CRM. Asserting your authority is only valid when you are the PIC or being formally checked (as opposed to 'reviewed') and even then sometimes requires flexibility.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 15th Feb 2024 at 09:06.
The following 2 users liked this post by Mach E Avelli:
Thread Starter
I also believe that under part 61.095 that the “student” is the PICUS as long as they are fully licenced and current.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 15th Feb 2024 at 09:12.
That sentence makes no sense to me.
The following users liked this post:
7700,
I think you'll find that it is unlawful to exercise the privilege of PIC unless you have passed an AFR in the last 24 months.
Instructor is PIC under the rules for AFR.
I think you'll find that it is unlawful to exercise the privilege of PIC unless you have passed an AFR in the last 24 months.
Instructor is PIC under the rules for AFR.
If I’m not mistaken, an instructor can legally not have a valid AFR and still exercise their privileges to perform the requirements of the AFR, as long as the “student” is current.
I also believe that under part 61.095 that the “student” is the PICUS as long as they are fully licenced and current.
I also believe that under part 61.095 that the “student” is the PICUS as long as they are fully licenced and current.
PICUS is under supervision. So the supervisor would be the ultimate carrier of the can, should it all go pear shaped, n'est pas?
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter
It would blow my mind that someone with their level of experience would tell me these “facts” when they may be incorrect.
If I’m not mistaken, an instructor can legally not have a valid AFR and still exercise their privileges to perform the requirements of the AFR, as long as the “student” is current.
I also believe that under part 61.095 that the “student” is the PICUS as long as they are fully licenced and current.
I also believe that under part 61.095 that the “student” is the PICUS as long as they are fully licenced and current.
https://www.casa.gov.au/flight-crew-...flight-reviews. Para 12.1.1
Last edited by Cloudee; 15th Feb 2024 at 09:40.
And thus...
The perpetual nonsense continues.
The perpetual nonsense continues.
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter
And....
Who was the PIC?
I'm not being critical if the answer is unclear.
That lack of clarity is, in and of itself, a safety risk.
Who was the PIC?
I'm not being critical if the answer is unclear.
That lack of clarity is, in and of itself, a safety risk.
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter
The PE threw me off with comments made that indicated the contrary, prior to the flight.
I’ll take it up with the PE.
The issue for private operators like myself is that these type of things only ever come up every 2 years and usually with different instructors.
My last instructor was so busy taking selfies and posting them on Instagram, that I got nothing out of it, so it’s like I haven’t had any instruction / updates for 4 years.
I'm still confused.
For what does "PE" stand (other than physical education)?
For what does "PE" stand (other than physical education)?
It appears that the vote of public pprune opinion and google say that the PE was the PIC.
The PE threw me off with comments made that indicated the contrary, prior to the flight.
I’ll take it up with the PE.
The issue for private operators like myself is that these type of things only ever come up every 2 years and usually with different instructors.
My last instructor was so busy taking selfies and posting them on Instagram, that I got nothing out of it, so it’s like I haven’t had any instruction / updates for 4 years.
The PE threw me off with comments made that indicated the contrary, prior to the flight.
I’ll take it up with the PE.
The issue for private operators like myself is that these type of things only ever come up every 2 years and usually with different instructors.
My last instructor was so busy taking selfies and posting them on Instagram, that I got nothing out of it, so it’s like I haven’t had any instruction / updates for 4 years.
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter