S211 Down Port Phillip Bay
It's not "a stretch". It's an example of where you survive but with the wrong process. Then one day, applying the wrong process you, or someone else, may not survive. In the case of Port Phillip Bay there's a 3rd airport available and reduces risk to those below. If the mayday had been clearer ATC could have suggested Avalon as an alternative and then reduced the pilot's workload by providing all the info needed. As described elsewhere, one frequency change and a couple of radar vectors is all it would have taken. Notams, weather etc all would be taken care of by ATC and provided to the pilot. This continual resistance that it was all too hard for an experienced pilot is just baffling. Sorry, but I don't buy it.
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How about we all stop replying and just let Georgee, Wetdream and Squaaawk go back and forth to convince each other how professional they themselves are and how they are the airmanship heroes and rest of us stupid plods who know nothing just rest on our thoughts that Viper 1 did a commendable job.
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It's not "a stretch". It's an example of where you survive but with the wrong process. Then one day, applying the wrong process you, or someone else, may not survive. In the case of Port Phillip Bay there's a 3rd airport available and reduces risk to those below. If the mayday had been clearer ATC could have suggested Avalon as an alternative and then reduced the pilot's workload by providing all the info needed. As described elsewhere, one frequency change and a couple of radar vectors is all it would have taken. Notams, weather etc all would be taken care of by ATC and provided to the pilot. This continual resistance that it was all too hard for an experienced pilot is just baffling. Sorry, but I don't buy it.
How about we all stop replying and just let Georgee, Wetdream and Squaaawk go back and forth to convince each other how professional they themselves are and how they are the airmanship heroes and rest of us stupid plods who know nothing just rest on our thoughts that Viper 1 did a commendable job.
I very rarely post, and do not engage in 'tit for tat' exchanges. However, I feel obliged to comment on this crash, given that in my relative youth I spent an awful lot of time in close proximity to multiple fast jets (and moreso than simply being in the gaggle during visual RTB manoeuvres). No, I was not a Macchi Rouletter.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
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I very rarely post, and do not engage in 'tit for tat' exchanges. However, I feel obliged to comment on this crash, given that in my relative youth I spent an awful lot of time in close proximity to multiple fast jets (and moreso than simply being in the gaggle during visual RTB manoeuvres). No, I was not a Macchi Rouletter.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
If I saw ANOTHER aircraft spud into the water, even if it was not a member of my formation, my radio call would commence with "Mayday, mayday, mayday."
I'm pretty sure this is covered somewhere earlier in the thread, where it says that the call "Mayday" is to transmit emergency information relating to an extremely serious situation where loss of life is imminent or expected (not the exact words, just the thrust of it) - it doesn't have to be for the aircraft transmitting.
Having said that, "Mayday relay" also makes sense - just haven't heard of it...
EDIT - AIP says this:
MAYDAY: My aircraft and its occupants are threatened by grave and imminent danger and/or I require immediate assistance.
I read this as, "OR I require immediate assistance to assist another aircraft that just splashed into the water."
Last edited by josephfeatherweight; 2nd Dec 2023 at 01:51.
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joseph, it may well be that he put the mayday out immediately after the collision, not knowing the extent of damage to his own aircraft at that instant, only knowing that collisions can end badly, you're in a situation where you don't have time to faff about, once the mayday is out you can take stock, the Roulettes had a few collisions in their time, some fatal. Just been talking to a pal about a Mirage pilot I rescued and a double fatality Roulette accident where he found one of the pilots who later died in hospital.
Only ever had one mayday in my time, engine failure taking off from an oil rig, chap in the other seat put out a mayday and I never knew, being other wise occupied, neither of us knew whether we would end up in the water or not, time is not always on your side. Alex Crawford if you're reading, top job my man.
Only ever had one mayday in my time, engine failure taking off from an oil rig, chap in the other seat put out a mayday and I never knew, being other wise occupied, neither of us knew whether we would end up in the water or not, time is not always on your side. Alex Crawford if you're reading, top job my man.
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I very rarely post, and do not engage in 'tit for tat' exchanges. However, I feel obliged to comment on this crash, given that in my relative youth I spent an awful lot of time in close proximity to multiple fast jets (and moreso than simply being in the gaggle during visual RTB manoeuvres). No, I was not a Macchi Rouletter.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
From fishhead days we used Mayday relay when a Mayday was heard by us but not the boat/ATC due to distance etc.
Personally, I'm finding the discussion on whether a Mayday call (or the format of the distress message) that should, or shouldn't have have been issued, largely irrelevant. The point of the call was to advise ATC that another aircraft was in "grave an imminent danger" & that message was relayed to ATC so that SAR actions could be immediately implemented - which they were. Regarding where the "surviving" aircraft elected to proceed, a decision was made in a very short time frame by the PIC & I wouldn't dare question that decision, because I was not there & don't know the thought processes of those involved. Once again, a decision was made & that decision appears sound to me, from what I have read so far...
Last edited by VH-MLE; 2nd Dec 2023 at 07:47.
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Here's an idea: Mayday (and Pan) calls should initially go to an automated call centre.
Pleasant female voice recording:
I've read lots of bull**** on lots of PPRuNe threads over a couple of decades. The accumulation of some of the bull**** on this thread means it may achieve G(BT)OAT.
Pleasant female voice recording:
Please listen to all the following options, because they may have changed since you last contacted us with a problem.
If your Mayday / Pan call is about your aircraft or someone in it, press your transmit key once.
If your Mayday / Pan call is about some other aircraft or person, press your transmit key twice.
If you're busy managing some problem, please monitor this frequency until the next available controller can respond to your call.
If your Mayday / Pan call is about your aircraft or someone in it, press your transmit key once.
If your Mayday / Pan call is about some other aircraft or person, press your transmit key twice.
If you're busy managing some problem, please monitor this frequency until the next available controller can respond to your call.
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A single engine jet is designed to operate with live seats. If this aircraft had these, two fine individuals would still be with us. Why is there so much opposition to live seats in a civilian operation? Is it the storage and handling of explosive charges? Lack of technical support staff? The safety authority removing a level of safety is an odd outcome for operating ex-military jets.
Moderator
Perhaps we've exhausted the mayday deliberations and can move on to other matters associated with the mishap ?
If I may rephrase that ... there has been more than an adequate range of comments regarding Mayday calls.
George, Certainly a lack of specialist LSE folk in civvy street and it would take a few changes in the CASA paradigm ... for a very few hulls. Can't see much interest from Furzer Street.
If I may rephrase that ... there has been more than an adequate range of comments regarding Mayday calls.
George, Certainly a lack of specialist LSE folk in civvy street and it would take a few changes in the CASA paradigm ... for a very few hulls. Can't see much interest from Furzer Street.
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If the Cirrus dealerships can get approvals for the rocket / chute re-pack you’d think it would be possible, however I’m sure it would be a matter of supply and demand and I can’t see there being a huge demand for Martin Baker seats. There would be something like half a dozen L39’s operating I guess too.
Military airworthiness and crashworthiness.
Civvy aircraft are designed to a set of standards (egFAR25) that determine levels of crashworthiness. Eg seat loading, head strike etc.
I assume military would be made to another standard, if so does that standard vary if you have an ejection seat or not? Eg. If no MB ejector seat, you have to have say 16G, but if you do, equivalent level of safety says it only needs to be say 4G?
Civvy aircraft are designed to a set of standards (egFAR25) that determine levels of crashworthiness. Eg seat loading, head strike etc.
I assume military would be made to another standard, if so does that standard vary if you have an ejection seat or not? Eg. If no MB ejector seat, you have to have say 16G, but if you do, equivalent level of safety says it only needs to be say 4G?
I think there is a slight difference between Cirrus launching a parachute from their aircraft versus a rocket propelled ejection seat through the canopy of a retired military jet.
A single engine jet is designed to operate with live seats. If this aircraft had these, two fine individuals would still be with us. Why is there so much opposition to live seats in a civilian operation? Is it the storage and handling of explosive charges? Lack of technical support staff? The safety authority removing a level of safety is an odd outcome for operating ex-military jets.
Since the civilian world means you're not operating in a war zone, CASA probably consider the risk of something going wrong with the seat or it's use means it's better odds to stay with the ship and force-land.
There's a great book on the subject fresh on the shelves: https://www.amazon.com.au/Eject-John.../dp/B0BC9WXWWK
Last edited by PiperCameron; 4th Dec 2023 at 02:07.