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S211 Down Port Phillip Bay

Old 1st Dec 2023, 09:47
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by georgeeipi
It's not "a stretch". It's an example of where you survive but with the wrong process. Then one day, applying the wrong process you, or someone else, may not survive. In the case of Port Phillip Bay there's a 3rd airport available and reduces risk to those below. If the mayday had been clearer ATC could have suggested Avalon as an alternative and then reduced the pilot's workload by providing all the info needed. As described elsewhere, one frequency change and a couple of radar vectors is all it would have taken. Notams, weather etc all would be taken care of by ATC and provided to the pilot. This continual resistance that it was all too hard for an experienced pilot is just baffling. Sorry, but I don't buy it.
Luckily no one really cares if you buy it or not.
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Old 1st Dec 2023, 21:05
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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How about we all stop replying and just let Georgee, Wetdream and Squaaawk go back and forth to convince each other how professional they themselves are and how they are the airmanship heroes and rest of us stupid plods who know nothing just rest on our thoughts that Viper 1 did a commendable job.
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Old 1st Dec 2023, 21:17
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Originally Posted by georgeeipi
It's not "a stretch". It's an example of where you survive but with the wrong process. Then one day, applying the wrong process you, or someone else, may not survive. In the case of Port Phillip Bay there's a 3rd airport available and reduces risk to those below. If the mayday had been clearer ATC could have suggested Avalon as an alternative and then reduced the pilot's workload by providing all the info needed. As described elsewhere, one frequency change and a couple of radar vectors is all it would have taken. Notams, weather etc all would be taken care of by ATC and provided to the pilot. This continual resistance that it was all too hard for an experienced pilot is just baffling. Sorry, but I don't buy it.
The mayday seemed clear enough . It was issued on behalf of an aircraft that had gone down. ATC appears to have understood that, evidenced by issue of a non emergency transponder code.. The surviving aircraftís pilot stated his intention to return to Essendon. Unless asked for advice, the last thing ATC would do is confuse the situation by suggesting alternatives, and ADDING to the pilotís workload with additional frequency changes, notams, weather etc , neither needed nor called for.
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Old 1st Dec 2023, 22:31
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How about we all stop replying and just let Georgee, Wetdream and Squaaawk go back and forth to convince each other how professional they themselves are and how they are the airmanship heroes and rest of us stupid plods who know nothing just rest on our thoughts that Viper 1 did a commendable job.
​​​​​​​Hang on mate, you don't like my fly to the desert saltpan idea??
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Old 1st Dec 2023, 23:15
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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I very rarely post, and do not engage in 'tit for tat' exchanges. However, I feel obliged to comment on this crash, given that in my relative youth I spent an awful lot of time in close proximity to multiple fast jets (and moreso than simply being in the gaggle during visual RTB manoeuvres). No, I was not a Macchi Rouletter.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 01:28
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MMSOB
I very rarely post, and do not engage in 'tit for tat' exchanges. However, I feel obliged to comment on this crash, given that in my relative youth I spent an awful lot of time in close proximity to multiple fast jets (and moreso than simply being in the gaggle during visual RTB manoeuvres). No, I was not a Macchi Rouletter.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.
Have flown a few hours in (RAAF) military formation (as a student and instructing) and have never heard the R/T phrase "Mayday relay..." - I reckon I would have transmitted pretty much the same as Viper 1 - he's calling a Mayday on behalf of the formation.
If I saw ANOTHER aircraft spud into the water, even if it was not a member of my formation, my radio call would commence with "Mayday, mayday, mayday."
I'm pretty sure this is covered somewhere earlier in the thread, where it says that the call "Mayday" is to transmit emergency information relating to an extremely serious situation where loss of life is imminent or expected (not the exact words, just the thrust of it) - it doesn't have to be for the aircraft transmitting.
Having said that, "Mayday relay" also makes sense - just haven't heard of it...

EDIT - AIP says this:
MAYDAY: My aircraft and its occupants are threatened by grave and imminent danger and/or I require immediate assistance.
I read this as, "OR I require immediate assistance to assist another aircraft that just splashed into the water."

Last edited by josephfeatherweight; 2nd Dec 2023 at 01:51.
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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 02:06
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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joseph, it may well be that he put the mayday out immediately after the collision, not knowing the extent of damage to his own aircraft at that instant, only knowing that collisions can end badly, you're in a situation where you don't have time to faff about, once the mayday is out you can take stock, the Roulettes had a few collisions in their time, some fatal. Just been talking to a pal about a Mirage pilot I rescued and a double fatality Roulette accident where he found one of the pilots who later died in hospital.

Only ever had one mayday in my time, engine failure taking off from an oil rig, chap in the other seat put out a mayday and I never knew, being other wise occupied, neither of us knew whether we would end up in the water or not, time is not always on your side. Alex Crawford if you're reading, top job my man.

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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 02:31
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MMSOB
I very rarely post, and do not engage in 'tit for tat' exchanges. However, I feel obliged to comment on this crash, given that in my relative youth I spent an awful lot of time in close proximity to multiple fast jets (and moreso than simply being in the gaggle during visual RTB manoeuvres). No, I was not a Macchi Rouletter.
I am quite surprised that no-one with a mil background has mentioned the Mayday Relay option; aircraft A transmitting on behalf of aircraft B, in distress. Had I been in the boots of the unfortunate Viper 1, I suspect my initial call would have been along these lines:
"Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay. Viper 1 and Viper 2 mid-air collision. Viper 2 appears to have impacted the water. Viper 1 suspect only minor damage my aircraft. Standby for further."
This is not meant as any criticism of Viper 1's actions. I am not a party to the Kangaroo Court.

Fr​​om fishhead days we used Mayday relay when a Mayday was heard by us but not the boat/ATC due to distance etc.
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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 07:20
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Personally, I'm finding the discussion on whether a Mayday call (or the format of the distress message) that should, or shouldn't have have been issued, largely irrelevant. The point of the call was to advise ATC that another aircraft was in "grave an imminent danger" & that message was relayed to ATC so that SAR actions could be immediately implemented - which they were. Regarding where the "surviving" aircraft elected to proceed, a decision was made in a very short time frame by the PIC & I wouldn't dare question that decision, because I was not there & don't know the thought processes of those involved. Once again, a decision was made & that decision appears sound to me, from what I have read so far...

Last edited by VH-MLE; 2nd Dec 2023 at 07:47.
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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 07:34
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Here's an idea: Mayday (and Pan) calls should initially go to an automated call centre.

Pleasant female voice recording:
Please listen to all the following options, because they may have changed since you last contacted us with a problem.

If your Mayday / Pan call is about your aircraft or someone in it, press your transmit key once.

If your Mayday / Pan call is about some other aircraft or person, press your transmit key twice.

If you're busy managing some problem, please monitor this frequency until the next available controller can respond to your call.
I've read lots of bull**** on lots of PPRuNe threads over a couple of decades. The accumulation of some of the bull**** on this thread means it may achieve G(BT)OAT.
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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 08:32
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Come on mods. Shut it down!
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Old 2nd Dec 2023, 09:38
  #332 (permalink)  
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Perhaps we've exhausted the mayday deliberations and can move on to other matters associated with the mishap ?
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 04:34
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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A single engine jet is designed to operate with live seats. If this aircraft had these, two fine individuals would still be with us. Why is there so much opposition to live seats in a civilian operation? Is it the storage and handling of explosive charges? Lack of technical support staff? The safety authority removing a level of safety is an odd outcome for operating ex-military jets.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 05:50
  #334 (permalink)  
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Perhaps we've exhausted the mayday deliberations and can move on to other matters associated with the mishap ?

If I may rephrase that ... there has been more than an adequate range of comments regarding Mayday calls.

George, Certainly a lack of specialist LSE folk in civvy street and it would take a few changes in the CASA paradigm ... for a very few hulls. Can't see much interest from Furzer Street.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 06:10
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If the Cirrus dealerships can get approvals for the rocket / chute re-pack youíd think it would be possible, however Iím sure it would be a matter of supply and demand and I canít see there being a huge demand for Martin Baker seats. There would be something like half a dozen L39ís operating I guess too.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 07:49
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Military airworthiness and crashworthiness.

Civvy aircraft are designed to a set of standards (egFAR25) that determine levels of crashworthiness. Eg seat loading, head strike etc.

I assume military would be made to another standard, if so does that standard vary if you have an ejection seat or not? Eg. If no MB ejector seat, you have to have say 16G, but if you do, equivalent level of safety says it only needs to be say 4G?
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 09:56
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I think there is a slight difference between Cirrus launching a parachute from their aircraft versus a rocket propelled ejection seat through the canopy of a retired military jet.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 19:12
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
I think there is a slight difference between Cirrus launching a parachute from their aircraft versus a rocket propelled ejection seat through the canopy of a retired military jet.
Quite the contrary, itís all about the acquisition, disposal and safe handling of the rocket fuel thatís the issue. Itís very potent. As you can imagine, our regulator requires specific skills and approvals for the handling.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 23:56
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Originally Posted by By George
A single engine jet is designed to operate with live seats. If this aircraft had these, two fine individuals would still be with us. Why is there so much opposition to live seats in a civilian operation? Is it the storage and handling of explosive charges? Lack of technical support staff? The safety authority removing a level of safety is an odd outcome for operating ex-military jets.
Back when ex mil jets first appeared on the scene a CASA rep, whose name I don't recall, said it was to ensure that owners didn't shirk on maintenance, how serious he was no idea. lost a compatriot in the Canberra Mig, one of our ex A-4 pilot/instructor.
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Old 4th Dec 2023, 01:55
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Originally Posted by megan
Back when ex mil jets first appeared on the scene a CASA rep, whose name I don't recall, said it was to ensure that owners didn't shirk on maintenance, how serious he was no idea. lost a compatriot in the Canberra Mig, one of our ex A-4 pilot/instructor.
There's that.. but there's also at least some level of training required to ensure said ejectee (and the other guy, if it's a 2-person ship) isn't killed or seriously maimed by the ejection sequence itself - and I don't suppose that's training you can get outside of the military. AIUI, without proper training, in some aircraft if everything went great you might only lose your legs, but if you didn't have enough altitude for the parachute to work (or know how to land under a parachute) you'd quite likely be dead anyway.

Since the civilian world means you're not operating in a war zone, CASA probably consider the risk of something going wrong with the seat or it's use means it's better odds to stay with the ship and force-land.

There's a great book on the subject fresh on the shelves: https://www.amazon.com.au/Eject-John.../dp/B0BC9WXWWK

Last edited by PiperCameron; 4th Dec 2023 at 02:07.
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