What to do? Any thoughts or advice.
With total hindsight, your biggest asset is your wife and the TWO of you need to work out your strategy as a TEAM. Ditch the financial advisor. Use Pprune as a source of a few details, not for grand strategy. If you haven’t caught up with Gorden B. Petersons “12 rules for life” start there and follow up on his thoughts regarding marriage. Remember both of you are flawed.
‘’If you don’t do something like that, and build your marriage, then everything else is utterly pointless.. .Trust me on that. You could be an A380 Captain on Qantas but not at the cost of a broken home, dysfunctional children and a bitter ex wife. It’s not worth it and neither you or your wife fully understand the strains and temptations you are both going to face.
‘Themes:
DO NOT PAY UPFRONT flying schools are as bad as builders - understand?
You are a carpenter. A hangar or office fitout would probably pay for all your training and the only loser is the tax man because barter doesn’t attract income tax.
‘’Just because you enjoy flying doesn’t mean you will like being an airline pilot. Your current wife is highly unlikely to enjoy you being an airline pilot. You risk making the same mistake as the heavy drinker who thinks that just because he likes drinking wine, he is going to be a successful grape grower, winemaker or bottle shop owner.
I know of one or two successful marriages in the airline industry and both parties in each had come from within the industry and knew what they were getting into.
‘’Translation: You do not want to subject your wife to this crap. If you want to fly, build a carpentry empire that can afford a Cirrus for you to fly or an executive jet.
- your career arc is going to run head on into the Green Party and their “degrowth” policies - they hate air travel and will one day try and put a stop to it.
=
‘’If you don’t do something like that, and build your marriage, then everything else is utterly pointless.. .Trust me on that. You could be an A380 Captain on Qantas but not at the cost of a broken home, dysfunctional children and a bitter ex wife. It’s not worth it and neither you or your wife fully understand the strains and temptations you are both going to face.
‘Themes:
DO NOT PAY UPFRONT flying schools are as bad as builders - understand?
You are a carpenter. A hangar or office fitout would probably pay for all your training and the only loser is the tax man because barter doesn’t attract income tax.
‘’Just because you enjoy flying doesn’t mean you will like being an airline pilot. Your current wife is highly unlikely to enjoy you being an airline pilot. You risk making the same mistake as the heavy drinker who thinks that just because he likes drinking wine, he is going to be a successful grape grower, winemaker or bottle shop owner.
I know of one or two successful marriages in the airline industry and both parties in each had come from within the industry and knew what they were getting into.
‘’Translation: You do not want to subject your wife to this crap. If you want to fly, build a carpentry empire that can afford a Cirrus for you to fly or an executive jet.
- your career arc is going to run head on into the Green Party and their “degrowth” policies - they hate air travel and will one day try and put a stop to it.
=
Last edited by Sunfish; 19th May 2023 at 21:56.
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took me 20 years to get a command after 5 years of following the dream..lost my license two years later ..29 years ago and now looking after my Mrs who has parkinsons..but we had dreams and lived them..I'm still flying although I hit a cliff last month and suffered a spinal compression fracture..hasn't stopped me flying nor living the life..go for it and take your soul mate along... we only get one crack at it.
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I changed career into airline flying at age 35, (in the UK). I left my previous good job when they wanted volunteers to leave. I received a settlement and had some savings. Also had a wife and young child at home to support. I decided that I did not have much time, so enrolled at a flight school and did a full time integrated ATPL. I did the sums first, and with my savings, could pay the mortgage and the bills, even while I was not earning for the best part of 2 years.
I was successful, flying-wise, but went through divorce, because the first airline job took too much out of our relationship.
So it is possible, but with certain caveats.
Question: what sort of flying do you actually want to do? I personally prefer the "coffee and shirtsleeves" sort: flying big modern airliners for airlines. But with your present income, you could possibly part-own a turbine twin, Pitts Special, or helicopter, or lease them for fun flying, without the airline treadmill of 0300 wake-ups, and six days on, two days off, four sector days. (Which will eventually ruin your health or relationships).
Think long and hard. And as someone said, think long and hard about children.
I was successful, flying-wise, but went through divorce, because the first airline job took too much out of our relationship.
So it is possible, but with certain caveats.
Question: what sort of flying do you actually want to do? I personally prefer the "coffee and shirtsleeves" sort: flying big modern airliners for airlines. But with your present income, you could possibly part-own a turbine twin, Pitts Special, or helicopter, or lease them for fun flying, without the airline treadmill of 0300 wake-ups, and six days on, two days off, four sector days. (Which will eventually ruin your health or relationships).
Think long and hard. And as someone said, think long and hard about children.
With total hindsight, your biggest asset is your wife and the TWO of you need to work out your strategy as a TEAM. Ditch the financial advisor. Use Pprune as a source of a few details, not for grand strategy. If you haven’t caught up with Gorden B. Petersons “12 rules for life” start there and follow up on his thoughts regarding marriage. Remember both of you are flawed.
‘’If you don’t do something like that, and build your marriage, then everything else is utterly pointless.. .Trust me on that. You could be an A380 Captain on Qantas but not at the cost of a broken home, dysfunctional children and a bitter ex wife. It’s not worth it and neither you or your wife fully understand the strains and temptations you are both going to face.
‘Themes:
DO NOT PAY UPFRONT flying schools are as bad as builders - understand?
You are a carpenter. A hangar or office fitout would probably pay for all your training and the only loser is the tax man because barter doesn’t attract income tax.
‘’Just because you enjoy flying doesn’t mean you will like being an airline pilot. Your current wife is highly unlikely to enjoy you being an airline pilot. You risk making the same mistake as the heavy drinker who thinks that just because he likes drinking wine, he is going to be a successful grape grower, winemaker or bottle shop owner.
I know of one or two successful marriages in the airline industry and both parties in each had come from within the industry and knew what they were getting into.
‘’Translation: You do not want to subject your wife to this crap. If you want to fly, build a carpentry empire that can afford a Cirrus for you to fly or an executive jet.
- your career arc is going to run head on into the Green Party and their “degrowth” policies - they hate air travel and will one day try and put a stop to it.
=
‘’If you don’t do something like that, and build your marriage, then everything else is utterly pointless.. .Trust me on that. You could be an A380 Captain on Qantas but not at the cost of a broken home, dysfunctional children and a bitter ex wife. It’s not worth it and neither you or your wife fully understand the strains and temptations you are both going to face.
‘Themes:
DO NOT PAY UPFRONT flying schools are as bad as builders - understand?
You are a carpenter. A hangar or office fitout would probably pay for all your training and the only loser is the tax man because barter doesn’t attract income tax.
‘’Just because you enjoy flying doesn’t mean you will like being an airline pilot. Your current wife is highly unlikely to enjoy you being an airline pilot. You risk making the same mistake as the heavy drinker who thinks that just because he likes drinking wine, he is going to be a successful grape grower, winemaker or bottle shop owner.
I know of one or two successful marriages in the airline industry and both parties in each had come from within the industry and knew what they were getting into.
‘’Translation: You do not want to subject your wife to this crap. If you want to fly, build a carpentry empire that can afford a Cirrus for you to fly or an executive jet.
- your career arc is going to run head on into the Green Party and their “degrowth” policies - they hate air travel and will one day try and put a stop to it.
=
For many, the stress of empire building plays havoc with health and relationships. For some (guilty as charged) our ego demands that we command a jet full of trusting passengers and comely flight attendants. For us, while nice in theory, bugsmashers or biz jets are not going to satisfy us. With maturity, some of us eventually get over the ego trip, and as said elsewhere, it becomes just another job, but a good job.
Even when it did become ‘just a job’ there was rarely a day when I did not enjoy that job. It sure beat the sh!t out of working for a living.
You sound like a resourceful person with a good work ethic, abundance of real world experience and very healthy attitude towards debt.
The job has changed a lot over the last 20 years.When I started in my first airline (Ansett) after 3000 odd hours in GA, it was nice wage, good bidding system, nice trips in 4 & 5 star hotels, passenger & FA visits to the cockpit in cruise, good nights out with crew.
After Sept 11 it was locked door, no passenger visits, and security procedures that make even FA visits rare, so it's all day in a locked box with one persone to talk to.
But still did a few night stops (although now in Europe, after the Ansett collapse).
Then night stops ceased (out and back each day without paying for hotels is cheaper for the airline), but still started and ended the day in the crew room for a chat with others.
Now, with iPads and electronic flight bags its Report Direct to Aircraft, all day in the locked box, no crew contact apart from 2 minutes at the start and end of each day and no night stops.
Low cost airline life in Europe has become a very isolating job as a pilot. Not the job I signed up for at all. You need to be quite the introvert to survive airline life nowadays.
Don't get me wrong - I am an aviation nut, and love flying, and not all jobs are European Low Cost ILS-to-ILS day jobs, but you need to have a bit more awareness of what the actual job is and not what Hollywood depicts it as.
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Look how many airline pilots never returned to flying after they were laid off during the Great Covid Debacle. That should be your clue. The money is good but the life isn’t. And after a while it is repetitious and stressful work. Every six months, you worry if you will pass the medical. You worry if your employer will go tits up. You stress out wondering if you will get the requested days off which were meaningful to you and your family. Oh, and did I mention the debilitating fatigue which builds up with back of the clock long haul flights? Your days become dedicated to trying to recover.
My theory is that only commodity pilots have to sell in the long run, is their health.
As others have said, pursue other work or business interests which are more lucrative and stable. Buy your own aircraft and actually enjoy flying. No one actually “flys” a modern jet aircraft.
My theory is that only commodity pilots have to sell in the long run, is their health.
As others have said, pursue other work or business interests which are more lucrative and stable. Buy your own aircraft and actually enjoy flying. No one actually “flys” a modern jet aircraft.
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Look how many airline pilots never returned to flying after they were laid off during the Great Covid Debacle. That should be your clue. The money is good but the life isn’t. And after a while it is repetitious and stressful work. Every six months, you worry if you will pass the medical. You worry if your employer will go tits up. You stress out wondering if you will get the requested days off which were meaningful to you and your family. Oh, and did I mention the debilitating fatigue which builds up with back of the clock long haul flights? Your days become dedicated to trying to recover.
My theory is that only commodity pilots have to sell in the long run, is their health.
As others have said, pursue other work or business interests which are more lucrative and stable. Buy your own aircraft and actually enjoy flying. No one actually “flys” a modern jet aircraft.
My theory is that only commodity pilots have to sell in the long run, is their health.
As others have said, pursue other work or business interests which are more lucrative and stable. Buy your own aircraft and actually enjoy flying. No one actually “flys” a modern jet aircraft.
It is clear from some posts that the lifestyle pilots previously enjoyed has mostly gone, thanks in part to kneejerk responses to 9/11 (with that aid to pilot murder-suicide - the armoured lockable cockpit door) and in part to erosion of working conditions (longer duty hours, minimum rest layovers, lots of tedious deadheading etc). Chuck in the threat of harassment complaints for simply engaging in friendly chat-up banter, and the chances of finding a good partner from the Flight Attendant pool are also severely diminished. So, I concede airline flying is not what it once was, but those bitten by the bug still have to experience it to decide for themselves. The quote below is every bit as applicable today as it was when it was written.
Re aircraft ownership: having owned two light aircraft in my time, this is spending money for limited pleasure. After a few hours plodding along in the summer thermals at 100 or even 150 knots, private flying becomes about as challenging and mentally stimulating as watching grass grow. Partners and kids don't get any thrills from it - only an occasional bout of air sickness, so often you end up doing it solo. And now private flying comes with its own embuggerances such as security-controlled aerodromes, high fuel costs (when you can find it), LAMEs charging surgeon's fees, CASA jumping out from behind trees to check your documents etc.
The OP has his heart set on airline flying - despite a few wrong turns, in my life the best advice I ever heeded was this:
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
- Mark Twain
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 21st May 2023 at 04:28.
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Thank you, everyone, for the great responses and advice, I very much appreciate it. And will get around to replying over the next few days. Currently down with the flu at work.
No, don't do it. I know thats negative and all but for all those "follow your dream" advocates about 10% only achieve that dream and of those its then a love-hate thing for most.
You would not believe how many airline pilots would give their back teeth to able to do a decent dovetail joint.
You would not believe how many airline pilots would give their back teeth to able to do a decent dovetail joint.
Fair point. Check posts #25 and #27 : airline flying is not what it used to be.
The dream and the image of airline flying in big modern airliners is very seductive, but even back when I started, in 1999, I would only see my wife and young family for literally a day and a half every week, owing to a brutal 6 on 2 off roster, and having to live in digs four hours drive away to be within 90 minutes driving time of my base airport. I wasn't at home to see my young son first ride his bike without stabilisers.
You almost certainly won't go straight from flight school onto that big jet flight-deck, there might possibly be years of nose to the grindstone, soul destroying work before that.
The dream and the image of airline flying in big modern airliners is very seductive, but even back when I started, in 1999, I would only see my wife and young family for literally a day and a half every week, owing to a brutal 6 on 2 off roster, and having to live in digs four hours drive away to be within 90 minutes driving time of my base airport. I wasn't at home to see my young son first ride his bike without stabilisers.
You almost certainly won't go straight from flight school onto that big jet flight-deck, there might possibly be years of nose to the grindstone, soul destroying work before that.
No, don't do it. I know thats negative and all but for all those "follow your dream" advocates about 10% only achieve that dream and of those its then a love-hate thing for most.
You would not believe how many airline pilots would give their back teeth to able to do a decent dovetail joint.
You would not believe how many airline pilots would give their back teeth to able to do a decent dovetail joint.
Personally, I wouldn’t give my back teeth to learn carpentry skills, but I would consider giving my left testicle to be able to speak fluent Greek and Italian.
A commercial pilot should aspire to do what he/she is paid to do to a very high level of competence. To do a few other things competently can be useful and good for you. Those who can’t do anything other than fly are a bit sad and often end up miserable in retirement. Life as they know it stops the day they hang up the headset.
But we can’t be competent at everything, and is why we should pay other people to do some things for us.
Being an airline pilot means you should be able to afford this.
But your estimate of only 10% of pilots making it all the way to the airlines is probably right. Fortunately for the OP, he has skills he could fall back on if he doesn’t make the 10%.
Caveat emptor.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 23rd May 2023 at 14:13. Reason: Caveat added
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A commercial pilot should aspire to do what he/she is paid to do to a very high level of competence. To do a few other things competently is a nice-to-have.Those who can’t do anything else are a bit sad.
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If you have a PPL with all CPL exams already done you’re nearly finished. You could fly every second day for a month and finish all the flying stuff. You have already done the hard work which are those pesky CPL exams. Would be many others out there who have completed the command time but are stuck dealing with those exams. Don’t forget those exams fall off the system after a certain timeframe, I think it was about 2 years.
I wouldn’t worry about MEIR or other endorsements until perhaps after the first 1000 hours. I’d get a retractable endorsement, some time on 206/210 and that is more than enough to get moving.
Don’t worry about age too much. You play your cards and timing carefully you can go from GA first job to Jetstar or Virgin in about 7 years. See what those Jet jobs require and try and adjust your employment in those prior years to ready yourself for that. Flying for an operator that only has 208s for example, for many years on end might delay things, if you can work for an operator with a vast variety of aircraft/endorsements then that will assist moving faster. I don’t think you have any issues trying to get a job at those places later this decade. Most of us these days will be working until we are 100 so many years ahead.
I wouldn’t worry about MEIR or other endorsements until perhaps after the first 1000 hours. I’d get a retractable endorsement, some time on 206/210 and that is more than enough to get moving.
Don’t worry about age too much. You play your cards and timing carefully you can go from GA first job to Jetstar or Virgin in about 7 years. See what those Jet jobs require and try and adjust your employment in those prior years to ready yourself for that. Flying for an operator that only has 208s for example, for many years on end might delay things, if you can work for an operator with a vast variety of aircraft/endorsements then that will assist moving faster. I don’t think you have any issues trying to get a job at those places later this decade. Most of us these days will be working until we are 100 so many years ahead.
Agree with PoppoJo is that age is not so much a factor these days, like it used to be in say the 70's and 80's. I've seen people start at airlines in their 40's and judging by who I follow on Instagram, there are a few grey hair SOs at Qantas too. The oldest person I know who got a jet gig at an airline here in Aus was in his 50's, but then he had thousands of hours flying experience in other parts of the world.
Also don't worry about missing out on the current so called 'pilot shortage' The industry is cyclic in terms of job demand and supply. Who remembers the good times during 2006-2007 when almost anyone with CPL/IR and a heart beat could get a decent airline job, only to have the GFC start in 2008. I dare say by the time you have the hours to apply for the airlines, there will be another pilot shortage wave springing up.
Also don't worry about missing out on the current so called 'pilot shortage' The industry is cyclic in terms of job demand and supply. Who remembers the good times during 2006-2007 when almost anyone with CPL/IR and a heart beat could get a decent airline job, only to have the GFC start in 2008. I dare say by the time you have the hours to apply for the airlines, there will be another pilot shortage wave springing up.
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Don't forget that all those who are saying don't do it started out wanting to do nothing else. If an aviation career is calling you and you can't get the song out of your head then go for it. My wife was very supportive when I started out and still is but I would not want to push things and unilaterally decide that I am now off to the Middle East or freighters out of the US. Spousal patience does have its limits but if she is agreeable now then hold hands and jump in together.
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I don't know anyone from my airline that didn't go back. Looking through the seniority list the only ones missing are boomers who took early retirement.
I went back to my licenced trade when I got made redundant and I couldn't wait to go back flying. Lifestyle and money wise airline flying is way better and it's not even close.
Now, if you really wanted to be a professional pilot you wouldn't be asking on an internet forum, would you? Wishy washy folk don't go far in this industry. Make a command decision yourself! :-)
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