What to do? Any thoughts or advice.

[Ostfront]

Good evening fellow aviators, long-time PPRuNe lurker here in desperate need of any opinions, thoughts, advice, or any other ideas.

I am in quite a predicament and I will be very upfront and open regarding my situation. Some may see my position as privileged but it is not where I planned on being in my current life.

So I am quite concerned that my age may be a detriment to a future career as an airline pilot. I am almost 31 years old and hold a ppl. I had planned on flying for a career by now but I have had multiple setbacks towards my goal.

I recently met with my financial advisor who advised me against the idea I had and to hold off on my aviation career for another 3 to 4 years if I can. As he does not know aviation he is not aware of seniority or how this may affect a career or the slow process of getting a half-decent flying job either.

A quick rundown on my situation and how I got here. I always aspired to be a pilot for as long as I can remember. It is an obsession that I cannot seem to shake. I did not have the best upbringing or family situation which led to me leaving home early and having to support myself on peanuts. I managed to complete a trade as a carpenter and I started taking flying lessons. But this cost me a lot and left me with no savings for living expenses. I struggled for some years and managed to set up my own business. It was a slow process with a lot of ups and downs. Finally, things started to look up and I managed to start flying again and everything was going well until a building company I contracted to collapsed and I was financially ruined. I went out of my way to avoid bankruptcy and got a job in mining and slowly paid all my debts off. This pushed me out to now. I had planned on entering aviation around the age of 26/27 but here I am finally debt free at 31 with my wife who has stuck by me this whole time. Unfortunately due to this I never managed to buy a home which has caused a few headaches lately as well.
Anyway, after a few hard years working away to pay off the debts and survive I finally got a position that pays very well. $204k a year to be exact. I will be honest, I hate my job and I cannot do this forever as I will lose my mind. I am on a 2n1 - 7 days/7 nights 13 hours per shift and then 7 off but it's 6 off as your first day off is flyout day after a 13-hour night shift.

My original plan was to save up as much as I can this year which will give me $120k in savings to get me through the 8 months or so in 2024 when I am not working or just working on weekends along with any money for moving for a GA job or a rainy day and savings while I complete an integrated aviation course with CPL, nvfr, ME, and IR all on vet fee help. This will leave me with a 110k vet fee debt.
I currently have my ppl and have completed all my Cpl exams.

So here is my dilemma. After explaining to my friend/financial advisor what GA wages are and how long it takes to get into an airline etc... He thinks I should hold off and work another 3 to 4 years as the contract for the site I am at is up for renewal in 2027. He advised that I should buy a cheap home in Perth that needs renovating, and fix it up, as that's what I have done for several of his homes in the past, as I have every tool you can think of and can do everything myself on the home except for gas and electrical and then continue to save money or pay down the loan and then either do the vet fee help or pay the course in full.

I pretty much agree with everything he has said, but my main concerns have been, am I missing out on this current pilot shortage? and let's say I finish my flight training at 35 or 36 will I be too old to make it into an airline? And will a GA operator even hire someone my age? I don't want to get to the end of my life and have regrets about not achieving my dream. I know I may not make it to a WB captain. But I would like to at least get to 65 and possibly be an NB capt. Is this achievable or is it unrealistic at this age to reach the goal of an airline pilot?

I completely understand my advisor's reasoning to get a home now while on this income and the climbing home prices along with struggling to get a home or save for a deposit when I am in GA or even when I am employed by one of the regionals, but I do wonder if those 3 or 4 extra years could make a huge difference to my future career. I have accepted the fact that I may miss out on this huge recruitment drive and the possibility of there being no E3 opportunities in the future as well, especially with the recession that is coming.
My goal in the end was once I finished my flight training I would seek out employment up in Darwin or any of the northern towns and try to supplement my low GA income by doing carpentry/building work on my days or weekends off. I do not know if this is possible with GA but it is an idea I had in mind as I have a good ute with every tool imaginable plus I am used to working 7 days a week. Hell, I'd even offer any of the potential employers any help or services they need, I even have an HR and bus license which I have heard can be handy, along with about 30 other tickets...
Maybe from a pilot's perspective, this may all seem trivial, but I would love to know any of your thoughts, or advice, or if you have any similar stories and what you did I really would love to hear.
Some days I wish I took a vet loan back when I was 25 instead of setting up a business, but I always wanted to avoid debt and here I am.
Some of you may advise me to stay in the career I am in as I know aviation has been rough for many, especially the last few years. But this is coming from a guy who goes to Perth International viewing deck at least once on break to get a coffee at 11 pm to watch the aircraft arrive and depart. And getting on the flights to and from work is even more depressing. So I hope you can understand where I am coming from.

I am looking forward to all of your replies.

[Brakerider]

I think you need to seperate whether flying (and a career in aviation) is a good financial decision or a genuine life goal/desire.

I would argue that financially, aviation may not be the best endeavour for you if your goal is financial stability in the short/medium term.

30s is not too old to start an airline career. Your trade skills would be looked upon favourably by a GA employer and your life experience favourably by any Cadetship opportunities.

By leaving your training til your late 30s, you would (by law of averages only) probably see a jet airline job 5-10 years later. This would probably exclude you from a command at QF or VA mainline.

In any case, by delaying your training further the current wave of pilot hiring and movement may well be over.

[ajax58]

With $120k in savings you'd be able to easily pay your bills for 8 months and pay for all of your training up-front, unless you have made some poor financial decisions and have to service a massive mortgage/car lease etc.

You've got your PPL and all of your CPL subjects, so finish off your CPL non-integrated rather than going into a course where you'll need to repeat a lot of stuff. You can rent a 152 for ~$230 an hour to get your PIC time up.

For multi/IR you could do an integrated course in four months (look for AVI50519 diploma courses) for around $45k on FEE HELP loans or paid upfront to avoid the 20% service fee, or you could instead get your first job with your bare CPL, do your multi/IR piecemeal and make it all a tax deduction. That will also allow you to start flying more quickly and get a feel for the industry and the job before sinking another house deposit into training.

Good luck, I can tell you from experience that the hunger for the industry never leaves you. Yeah, you 'll probably never make it to the left seat of a Qantas widebody but if you finish your training at 35 you've still got a 30 year career ahead of you.

[tail wheel]

The odds are you will not end up an airline pilot but struggle to gain a foot hold as a GA pilot. You must have a very understanding wife if she is prepared to tag along whilst you try to full fill a dream in Northern Australia.

• Read this thread for a reality check: $165,000 debt and no flying job. Advice?
• Hang onto the wife and the financial advisor, they are excellent value.
• $120K should be about enough for a home deposit, especially as you are a tradie and can renovate.
• Hang in with that lucrative but onerous job for another year or two to fund the reno and build up your reserves

When your family has a home (and possibly the odd off spring) complete your pilot qualifications, part time as you can afford it, and settle for a bit of part time charter or instructional flying to fulfil the dream. Who knows, your luck may change and ultimately you could end up with a GA or regional airline turbine command.

[chimbu warrior]

Ditch the financial advisor, and follow your dream. But hang on to the wife as she sounds like a gem. Good luck, you have the right attitude.

[Squawk7700]

Current wave of employment?

Other threads speak of a massive over-supply of pilots!

The issue I see is your wife. If she’s in a position where she can make a solid income that’s great, especially if she could simply pick up a job in Darwin or wherever. The other “small” factor is children. If your wife is approaching your age, she’s going to want them very soon (assuming she wants them). This will financial set you back a long way, potentially a few years. You’ll want to move up north and that’s unlikely to happen with a newborn.

I would have thought with all the FIFO work you’ve done that flying would be the last thing that you want to do… interestingly you’re still keen.

I knew a guy who was a plasterer and also a flight instructor. He started up a very successful online plaster supply business. At the time, we were in a bit of a GFC where people were doing their own reno’s and he did VERY well out of it! Maybe using you’re carpentry skills and good looks if you have them, you could start a YouTube DIY channel? Start thinking outside the square!

I like the idea of expanding the property portfolio, this is sensible. Either keep the properties and rent them or flipping…. But personally I’d be wanting to expand your equity into those homes rather than spend the spare cash on flying lessons.

Also take a look at the most successful people you know, look at what they do/did and see if you can improve on it. (Aka Dick Smith’s advice).

Of all the people I know that have been financially successful in life they ALL owe their financial success to owning property.

Rarely does some get end up remarkably well by simply working for someone on a high salary, as when the big money rung out, they find that they have spent it all!

It’s certainly not too late to buy a home. Your financial advisor is on the ball in my opinion!

I wanted to be a commercial pilot at one point but decided I would keep working in the job I was in, make careful financial decisions and purchase my own plane so that I can go anywhere I want, whenever I want. So far I’m very happy with my decision, but I understand that others want to do it for a career. 6 months of fifo probably changed my idea on going commercial.

[By George]

Nothing is impossible but at your age you are behind before you start, and you need to play catchup. Breaking through the initial GA stage and gaining the hours to be competitive for an Airline job is tough, always has been.

You need to be in a jet before 40 in my opinion. I have spent the last few years doing type ratings and candidates over 40 without previous jet time really struggle. There is no mystery about jets, in some ways they are easier than piston/turboprops, but it requires adjustment that older students seem to find difficult. As soon as I get a candidate over 40 without previous jet time I know I am in for a hard ride. What makes it even more difficult they are invariably great guys/girls, and it is sole destroying watching them fail to make it. I give them all the help I can including during my time off. I have seen a couple make the grade on their second attempt, but they then struggle with line training.

Generally, it is not the stick and rudder skills that seem to be the problem it is more energy management, cockpit management and the two-crew environment.

If you want to be an Airline Pilot, you need to start at 21 not 31.

[Squawk7700]

Perhaps also look up the divorce rate of airline pilots. It may surprise you.

[Ascend Charlie]

It's called AIDS, the Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome.

Big membership.

[717tech]

Originally Posted by ajax58

For multi/IR you could do an integrated course in four months (look for AVI50519 diploma courses) for around $45k on FEE HELP loans or paid upfront to avoid the 20% service fee, or you could instead get your first job with your bare CPL, do your multi/IR piecemeal and make it all a tax deduction. That will also allow you to start flying more quickly and get a feel for the industry and the job before sinking another house deposit into training.

Admittedly I didn't look into the fine print, but there's full time courses for ME/IR for less than $30k.

My advice would be to avoid Vet fee. You've managed to save coin by working FIFO. Paying as you go could be cheaper. As others have said, you'd repeat a lot of what you've already done by going integrated.

[Mach E Avelli]

Keep working your day job, even if it sucks. Set aside a monthly budget for flying lessons and do your CPL at a local flying school with a good reputation. Pay as you go - NEVER up-front! Study as you go to keep the theory one step ahead of the practical. Forget all the diploma/degree bull**** - none of it will make you a better pilot, and accept that you probably wouldn't make it into a legacy airline at the age you would be by completion anyway.
If you can have the CPL done and dusted in two years you should not be too old for either a GA job or F/O on turboprops. Having a trade background and life experience should make you attractive to any sensible operator who values such attributes.
The market changes rapidly. Right now there may be a pilot shortage, though not at entry level. There’s never a shortage at entry level - the other thread running here about the guy who has a $165,000 debt and a bunch of useless add-on ratings confirms that truth.
Right now a multi-engine and instrument rating could give you an edge, but I doubt it unless the regionals start hiring 250 hour CPLs. Two years from now, who knows? They may have no choice. Meantime, not many Aussie GA operators will turn a bare CPL loose in a twin on day one (insurance problem, contract requirements), and so you then have the ongoing expense of keeping your MECIR current. However, to get into a regional you'd need these ratings, so at some stage you may have to find the extra money to add these.
After basic CPL, an Instructor rating could be a more useful add-on, but only with written agreement from the school that they will employ you upon graduation. Carefully monitor pilot employment trends before spending beyond the CPL.
As others have said, your chances of an eventual widebody command at a legacy airline may not be realistic. I reckon some regional operations have a healthier and better all-round lifestyle than capital city living that comes with the bigger airline jet jobs. Even a humble turbo-prop command (in the right town, with the right operator) would be no bad thing for a person bitten by the aviation bug.
When I started in this game 58 years ago, I did not aspire to great things beyond my 'station in life' but had a bloody good time down in the weeds, flew some good (and not so good) equipment in several countries, made a few bucks, found a 'keeper' for a wife. Was in my mid thirties before I bought my first house, funded from my overseas job. Picked an area where I wanted to live and could afford, and when I eventually came home, accepted a very ordinary GA job with a nice enough employer, just to live there. Jets followed in due course, but I did have to move around, selling a fully paid-for house, borrowing a bit to buy the next etc.
Property is cheaper in regional towns, so this is a strong case for being happy with turboprop work for a few years at least. Turboprops usually offer quick promotion to command. Whether or not you can live on a turboprop salary depends much on where you live, the car you drive and the wife's income (or at least her not being high maintenance).
As for worries about transition to jets, that depends …After being stuck on turboprops for 20 or so years, I was in my forties before I got my first jet command, and I did wonder what all the fuss was about, as it was easy enough - though I suspect that was because of the great variety of challenging flying that I had experienced and not due to any natural ability.
Listen to the naysayers but don't let them put you off. Never say never. Oh, and definitely keep the wife!

[KRviator]

Ostfront - you're in an almost identical situation to where I was nearly 20 years ago, though I did (and still do) love my current job.

FWIW, be careful thinking because you like flying now you'll still like it when you have to do it as a career. I've seen it many, many times in the railways with gunzels wanting to drive the big noisy train, and they give it away after a few years when they realise the endless nightshifts, antisocial hours and missed family gatherings are not worth it. After several years in Defence aviation, I saw the writing on the wall and followed another passion of mine into the railways and in doing so, it gave me enough $$ to pay off a house, buy several toys, and build an RV-9 that I now fly for fun. And that's what flying's meant to be, to me. Not the drudgery of driving to work in peak hour traffic for a 4 sector day with a Captain who has the people skills of a fencepost, while taking your belt & shoes off just to get to the jet.

If I CBF flying this week, so what? The plane stays in the hangar and I can look across at the local airport at the students flying their circuits with a cold beer in hand. If I want to take Mini-Me to Raglan or Temora or Wollongong for the fly-in, I can. Nice weather after school and he want's to do a lap around the patch? Let's go!

Granted, you don't like your job up north - you don't say what it is (ie if you're a chippie up there or another trade, etc), but $204 on 2/1 is likely around $155 2/2, is there an option to drop back to an even-time roster for more time at home and spend more time at home with the missus? Flying is still a passion of mine, but it's not worth your family. You won't be able to afford a house on GA wages, hell even if you went the cadet route with Rex into the RHS of a SAAB you aren't going to have much spending money for your mortgage - so I would urge caution spending a house deposit on hours and endos to complete your CPL and make you competitive and employable.

Your age isn't a barrier and with the tickets you hold, you'll likely be seen as an asset to a GA operator, but what's the trade-off? ie yes, you (may) get your 'dream' career, but what does Mrs Ostfront get? Dragged to Kunners, Ooenpelli, Darwin, who-knows-where as you move up the GA ladder, with not much to show for it if and until you get an Effo's slot at QF that offers you a liveable wage in a major city.

My advice, FWIW: Stay FIFO, go to an even-time roster in a role you enjoy, buy a house on an airpark or some acreage big enough for a runway and buy (or build!) your own plane. There's plenty of 172's and the like for the price of a Landcruiser. A few RV's too, and they're even more enjoyable. Fly for fun on your terms. Take Mrs Ostfront to Albany or Broome or Coral Bay for the weekend - she'll enjoy flying, and you, a damn sight more doing that kind of thing than following you around the country as you build hours and experience.

[Mach E Avelli]

QUOTE "But this is coming from a guy who goes to Perth International viewing deck at least once on break to get a coffee at 11 pm to watch the aircraft arrive and depart. And getting on the flights to and from work is even more depressing. So I hope you can understand where I am coming from".

If I may add something: In my early 30's I had an opportunity to join a prestigous long haul airline, but after some deliberation, declined.
I was having too much fun in the left seat of my turboporop, earning a tax free salary and living in a great country with lots of outdoor activities available. Spending roughly equalled income, such was the good life. Probably this was not what any financial advisor would have recommended. It also set me back a long way to eventally flying jets, and I must admit that when a nice shiny one flew overhead or pulled up beside me on the tarmac, I occasionally had some pangs of envy.
But, my chosen lifestyle trumped all that, and so I stuck to short haul flying throughout my career.
Today my health (touch wood) is that of a person 20 years younger, which I attribute to flying mostly day shifts and having good time off with the energy to remain physically active.
When you sit out at the observation deck at 2300 hours, spare a thought for how long that shiny jet's crew have been on duty, how little rest they will get in Perth, and to which fly-blown dictatorship they are headed next..

[drpixie]

For almost all working pilots, it's a job, just a job. Not a bad job, to be sure, but it's a job. Look at how many senior airline crew bid for minimum flying! I know a couple of people who've got the pilot obsession, but most people end up doing it for the money (which is not bad, but not fabulous, these days) and complaining about the roster and hours.

The step from CPL/IFR/ME to paying work is not easy. It will take time, involve moving around, and long periods of low (or little) pay. Yes, plenty of people get lucky and work their way up to an airline command, but there are no guarantees

I'd suggest you keep at the work that's paying, and make aviation a hobby. Buy (or better still make) a nice little aircraft, and fly when and where you want.

[tossbag]

Nobody can answer the questions you ask but you. Advice on here is worth 4/5ths of 1/10th of ****all. If there are 5 opinions of what you should do on here which one will you trust and move on? The one that gives you the answer you want to hear.

You've learnt some pretty good financial lessons to date, keep making good financial decisions.

[Bosi72]

Follow your dreams. You are "investing" in yourself, not in someone else, therefore everything depends on you.

Let's say you have 60hrs as PPL. You need in total 200hrs for CPL as non-integrated.
Pass IREX and ATPL's (whatever $ for books and exams).
Build solo hours 80hr x $230 = $25300 (make sure you fly 20hr navs as part of this),
Fly MECIR in twin 20hr x $670 = $13400,
Fly MECIR in sim 20hr x $180 = $3600 (only 10 counts for CPL),
​​​​​​Fly CPL training 30hr x $400 = $12000 (has to be complex aircraft: constant speed/retractable).

Add ~3k for flight tests, examiner fees, landing fees, airservices fees...

Total ~$60k

Note the hours are minimum, as it is all competency based.
With non-integrated you can pay as you go, but no hecs/help/vet..

Once you get all above you will be able to compete on the job market, and fly jets, why not?

[Squawk7700]

What can you get for $230, a 150?

[Bosi72]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

What can you get for $230, a 150?

152 is $224, price valid on 5JAN23, but don't think it went up much, if any..

[Mach E Avelli]

Originally Posted by Bosi72

Follow your dreams. You are "investing" in yourself, not in someone else, therefore everything depends on you.

Let's say you have 60hrs as PPL. You need in total 200hrs for CPL as non-integrated.
Pass IREX and ATPL's (whatever $ for books and exams).
Build solo hours 80hr x $230 = $25300 (make sure you fly 20hr navs as part of this),
Fly MECIR in twin 20hr x $670 = $13400,
Fly MECIR in sim 20hr x $180 = $3600 (only 10 counts for CPL),
​​​​​​Fly CPL training 30hr x $400 = $12000 (has to be complex aircraft: constant speed/retractable).

Add ~3k for flight tests, examiner fees, landing fees, airservices fees...

Total ~$60k

Note the hours are minimum, as it is all competency based.
With non-integrated you can pay as you go, but no hecs/help/vet..

Once you get all above you will be able to compete on the job market, and fly jets, why not?

Bollocks. This is Australia where you can’t fly jets until you have held command on the space shuttle with 10 moon landings.
Five wet seasons up north may be substituted for the above.

[Clare Prop]

If you want to stand out in a pile of resumes you need more command time than the others on the sort of aircraft you will need for your first job, which will be Day VFR single engine. you need Cessna and Piper time, not some cheapo plastic thing with a funny name. It is the first job you need to be competitive for, not the one flyng IFR in twins, because by the time you have enough hours to do that most of the other fresh CPLs will have fallen by the wayside, especially if they have minimum command time, and you will be established. So don't bother with those qualifications until you have a few hundred hours.

So my advice is to get as much command time as you can on your PPL, go to some interesting places, meet some interesting people, don't just drill holes in the sky in your local area, make your logbook stand out from the ones that have just followed a bouncing ball from lesson 1 to CPL. Then when you have about 175 hours total look for a school that will allow you to do an assessment to see what polish you need to pass the CPL test and tailor an individual course for you. If you go integrated, you will have to start from scratch and do one-size-fits-all, you will be just another sausage; you are already way beyond that and have done the exams so why do that all over again? VET HELP is the most expensive way of doing it. Pay as you go, NEVER EVER pay up front. EVER.

You sound like a resourceful person with a good work ethic, abundance of real world experience and very healthy attitude towards debt. That will give you an edge over the integrated sausages who may have little or no life experience. Remember a HELP loan will be a problem if you want to buy a house and those debts are at a much higher rate than interest rates. If you really need to borrow money, get a house and use the equity in that. As for your age, I was about your age when I was finally able to afford to go flying and have had a 30 year successful career. "Do it now while there is a shortage" is a sales pitch, nothing more. I've done non-integrated CPLs in their 40s who have gone to have great flying careers, because there are a lot of other opportunities than flying long haul for an airline. Many of them better paid and more enjoyable and better for a family life too.

There is no pilot shortage at the entry level, in fact the HELP loans are creating more and more people trying to get on the first rung of the ladder, with a rate of around 5% of starters to people actually getting a job at the end of it. Those loans would have been so much better for people who already had a CPL, work experience and needed to get some ratings rather than pumping out entry level sausages, but that's another story - some people are getting very rich from it, it's certainly not the people doing the flying, so the gravy train's not likely to stop any time soon. Those same people will flame me for what I have written here because they want to make a lot of money out of you.

Get command time and pay as you go! Be the tortoise not the hare. Never ever pay up front and never put your eggs in one basket, don't use emotive ;language like "obsession" :dream" "passion" this is a job operating heavy machinery, that's all. If those words apply then stay as a private pilot or you will get very disillusioned. That's enough cliches for one post. Good luck.