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182 crashed into trees at Porepunkah

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182 crashed into trees at Porepunkah

Old 6th Jan 2023, 08:15
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Originally Posted by megan
Class 4 instrument rating was what the authority called a NVFR rating in the old days, I had one. It's a pity they dropped the word "Instrument" because it removed an element stressing the skills required.
When I did the NVFR it was often remarked it should have remained named as a Class 4 IR to stress the instrument flying skills required. Rather than to allude its somehow more related to VFR flying, yes you are required to remain in VMC, but it's definitely more related to instrument flying than day VFR. They should just ditch NVFR and merge it into PIFR with night privileges.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 09:46
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What you forget is that too many guys went to Oshkosh and got an FAA licence (certificate) and when asked if they had an instrument rating they said 'Yep, a Class 4 instrument rating'. So the FAA man duly stamped their FAA licence/certificate as having an instrument rating.

So in time the Australian regulator of the day opted to rename the ticket as a NVFR rating.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 09:52
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
I am talking NVFR here not IFR! Every night VFR pilot I have ever trained or tested has always at least tried to establish a horizon during the flight when it is safe. Are you telling me they shouldn't? Heck, why don't we just make it IFR?
Yes try and look outside but on certain nights if you donít go back inside pronto - even in VMC -you will have a life expectancy measured in tens of seconds.

So Aussie Bob can you log IF when NVFR?
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 10:52
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Originally Posted by compressor stall
So Aussie Bob can you log IF when NVFR?
Well if itís a VFR flightÖÖ

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Old 6th Jan 2023, 11:45
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
Well if itís a VFR flightÖÖ
so youíre at 8000í agl black dark night. NVFR rules. No moon. No horizon. High cirrus. No stars. In your 5 oíclock you can see the point of light of a farmhouse 20nm+ away. Nothing else, just inky blackness outside.
You suddenly see the glow of a cloud bank in your lights. Itís altostratus as forecast and you descend 500í to remain clear of it. Still no visual clues available for piloting the aircraft. You donít enter the cloud. Your passenger behind you can see the farmhouse light behind continuously should she be looking that way.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 11:48
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Yep. It’s still a VFR flight as far as the rules are concerned. You can log whatever you want.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 11:56
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
Yep. Itís still a VFR flight as far as the rules are concerned. You can log whatever you want.
You canít log whatever you want. Thatís a 50 penalty unit fine if itís not correct.
But to stop that sidetrack, are you conducting IF in my above scenario?
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 13:12
  #48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
indeed. Perhaps though you should read the manual for 182/206 with rubber bladder tanks fitted. The correct procedure is to rock the wings to move water potentially trapped in ripples in the bladder.
I have just found the manual. As I read it you do the fuel drains until all signs of water has disappeared and then gently shake the wings , lower the tail and then redo the drains. Is that correct? Seems sensible to me as the first drain would have removed the risk of dispersing the water already in the sump. I donít fly the type but it would be nice to know as it is a safety concern.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 18:05
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The 182/206 issue started with dodgy flush mounted fuel caps that have now been mostly replaced by caps on a raised edge. If water is suspected, the entire rock wings, lower tail process needs repeating several times.

[QUOTE]So Aussie Bob can you log IF when NVFR[/QUOTE

Moronic 😀

The question is, can a competent and current NVFR pilot climb to LSALT on instruments within a 3 NM radius of the departure airport? We are assuming the instruments are all serviceable and the pilot has a failure plan. Nope you cant log it IF either.

Now, if the pilot while glancing outside notes a distinct and clear horizon while climbing, can he use that as well?

Personally, I would say that if they canít they are not fit to hold the rating.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 19:00
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Correct you canít log IF when inside on instruments on climb to the LSALT.

But what of my scenario above? Is it IF? The CASR changes have an interesting anomalyÖ.

Now, if the pilot while glancing outside notes a distinct and clear horizon while climbing, can he use that as well?
did anyone here say he shouldnít use the horizon in your scenario?
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 20:39
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But what of my scenario above? Is it IF? The CASR changes have an interesting anomaly….
I totally agree, it is in fact IF but cannot be logged for some reason, I mean WTF? The rating also does have a misleading name but that's what it is so I go with it.
No, no-one here said the horizon shouldn't be used but some seemed to state that it doesn't exist ....

I think everybody here knows that the rating has very limited appeal or practicality, but a flight over a city at night is great and this allows it. Also pre dawn departures are high on some touring pilots minds, as is arrival at or just beyond last light. It was once a requirement for a CPL and Aussies converting their CPL to an FAA version without an IFR must get it, (so I am told).
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 21:49
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
I totally agree, it is in fact IF but cannot be logged for some reason, I mean WTF?
My reading of the new regs is that - for that scenario - whether it can be logged depends on your licence type, what ratings you have, the type of airspace you are in, and how high you are off the ground.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 05:23
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
The question is, can a competent and current NVFR pilot climb to LSALT on instruments within a 3 NM radius of the departure airport?
You have to orbit within 3nm around the aerodrome to get to LSALT(either grid or calculated), and remain above until 3nm of destination aerodrome.

All night departures are done using instruments, but the pilot has to remain in VMC at all times, therefore IF time is not logged.

​​​​​​Night rating is good to have for reasons mentioned above. In my opinion, 2-3 hours of Night flying during Instrument rating training (CIR/PIFR) is not sufficient to conduct night flying. Freshly minted IFR pilots without extensive night training will confirm that.
Interestingly, the engine splutters, aircraft crashes without fuel burn (nor explosion), yet illusions associated with Instrument conditions are to blame?

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Old 7th Jan 2023, 05:49
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WTF has all this shit got to do with anything if the pilot took off without any runway lights?

What ever happened to Airmanship????




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Old 7th Jan 2023, 06:31
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Bosi72, not all aircraft explode and burn on impact like in the movies!

Short of someone draining fuel from this aircraft, he would be pretty unlucky to have run out of field some 800 metres off the end of the runway!
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 08:42
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Boss,
I ask the question how does one remain within 3 nm radius of a non-lit aerodrome at 4.40 am. No strong town lights, no farm lights, little or no cars on the roadway.
Nothing to give you a reference to remain close to the departure airport while circling while trying to get above the LSALT..
No doubt questions that the ATSB report will tell us very interested spectators and fellow pilots.
One leans from the mistakes of others.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 09:27
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Check your PMs R👍
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 09:27
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I don't think YPOK would meet any criteria for night operations due to significant terrain within 3nm. That is you could stay within 3nm and still hit terrain 1000ft above the airfield. The ridge line covering the entire western aspect is above 2000ft and just over 1nm from the runway, to the East is not much better.

Pretty sure there will be no ATSB report, GA, no fatality, no interest.... They won't even investigate an airline that's had 4 engine failures in a few months.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 09:50
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CASA may have the opportunity to apply the strict liability clause if the pilot canít justify taking off in the dark.

I also doubt the insurance company will pay out if itís a breach in regulation.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 09:55
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Looking at the topo.

the spot height 2.8nm south on centreline is 1450í above circuit altitude.
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