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182 crashed into trees at Porepunkah

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182 crashed into trees at Porepunkah

Old 4th Jan 2023, 20:33
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Originally Posted by Bosi72
No fire, maybe no fuel?

Don't know about Ypok, but an aerodrome can have portable lights and a responsible person. Also some aerodromes do not advertise lights in ERSA to avoid night buzzings from various schools.

In any case it appears the flight plan was submitted and SAR time actioned.

Curious how far from the aerodrome an aircraft crashed.

Take a look at the airport cameras and you’ll see the mountains literally right next to the runway.

It came to rest approximately 1km away from the runway on upwind. You can see all the emergency vehicles on-site at around 11am yesterday if you look at Windy.com

If there’s one takeaway from this, it appears that the pilot didn’t attempt to turn back.

There are no lights there. You’ll also see that on the cameras.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 21:11
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Just about all witnesses of aircraft accidents say they hear spluttering, the noises as the aircraft descends and inevitably hits terrain will cause all sorts of noise distortion and be caused by a lot of things unrelated to power loss. Have to remember this is in a valley where noises will echo around as well.

Just to add to how silly a night departure at this airport is; elevation 935 feet. The hills to the south end about 3km, and directly east and west are around 2500-3000ft, to the North above 3000ft. Mount Buffalo to the West within 10km is above 5500 ft. Then not too far to the east are the highest range in Victoria above 6500 ft. Very little lighting of any hills in the area and lots of trees and rocks. Great scenic valley flying by day, but at night...

I hope it's not another case of having all the toys fitted and thinking I can quasi IFR down valleys using moving map displays. It might be that SI/Engine failure saved his life by putting him in the fields before the mountains.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 21:19
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Way braver than me to attempt a takeoff at that airfield in the dark. Not that I haven’t made poor decisions before of course….. Hope he recovers fully to fly again and have a wild story to tell.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 01:09
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Looked out towards the mountains at 4.40am this morning - black as. 0520 - 0530 is a different matter.

We do dawn flying after a pre dawn inspection each year for dawn patrol. Not difficult with a good torch and checklist. I keep wondering if we aren't learning fundamental BAK any more.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 01:16
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A clear case of "what was he thinking".

I have operated out of Porpunkah at least 20 times. I have flown over that area at least 300 times over the last 15 years. It's serious country. A night departure, taking off to the north then picking up the Great Alpine Road to Myrtleford is possible, if there was enough road traffic to clearly see the location of the road and as long as you track above it you are ok. But......you need to bring your "A" game. You would need to fly and navigate with military grade precision..and planning.I have departed Porpunkah in less than optimal conditions by day (it can get very hazy around there and when the sun is at certain angles the hills all but dissapear). But, back then I knew the valley intimately, I had driven the Alpine road dozens of times, and I could draw the valley to scale on a blank sheet of paper, with all the hills etc......... from memory.

At 4:50am, there would have been the early rays of sunlight in the sky, but deep in the valley it would still be very dark. I live not too far from there, and am up at that time every morning.for work. It can be very deceiving. A take-off to the south with a climbing turn in the dark, with no enhanced vision equipment, no detailed planning, minimal experiance etc etc etc is a suicide mission. A right turn to track overhead the field after a southerly departure (south of Sinclairs Waterhole if you look at google earth) is rather sporty in the day time, you have a windshielf full of mountain. It gives me the shivers to think of doing it at night.

Diffucult and dangerous operations are possibe to do safely, if you do the required preparation & planning and have the required level of skill and discipline. Th military do that every day. But a kick the tyres and lets go attiutude simply will not work in this type of operation. I believe he was way out of his depth and lacked the requisite amount of preparation. The kicker is, by waiting another 30 mins, he would have had perfect visibility.

In these two videos you can see the terrain around the airfield. On a clear day with no wind, it's not that difficult an airfield. One thing to note, the videos hide how close the rising terrain actually is to you. They look much, much. As I taught every student I took into that strip, you must have a plan, fly that plan accurately, and always,always have an escape if it's not going to plan. Accurate flying skills being a given.



Last edited by Ozgrade3; 5th Jan 2023 at 01:53. Reason: added videos.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 02:39
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I keep wondering if we aren't learning fundamental BAK any more.
There are always some who think they know better than the rules and the fundamentals. Why not wait that little bit longer especially this time of year?
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 06:44
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
There are always some who think they know better than the rules and the fundamentals. Why not wait that little bit longer especially this time of year?
Flight training standards in Australia have descended to rubbish in the past 20 years.

The last 2 weeks with regards to injuries and fatalities clearly demonstrates this.

Very basic Pilot survival skills and fundamental procedures are being ignored by some pilots, resulting in accidents (how not to kill yourself and those on board your aircraft).

However there are still a few good trainers around.

Last edited by Duck Pilot; 5th Jan 2023 at 07:04.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 07:51
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine
mix the water that had already settled with the fuel

Avgas and water don't mix to any extent.
Sincere apologies for incorrect use of the word mix. Distribute/disperse would have been better.My point is that the water settles at the bottom of the tank shaking the wing would disperse it around the tank and your drain might not show any significant water.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 18:11
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Originally Posted by PV1
Sincere apologies for incorrect use of the word mix. Distribute/disperse would have been better.My point is that the water settles at the bottom of the tank shaking the wing would disperse it around the tank and your drain might not show any significant water.
indeed. Perhaps though you should read the manual for 182/206 with rubber bladder tanks fitted. The correct procedure is to rock the wings to move water potentially trapped in ripples in the bladder.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 21:47
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Duck Pilot:
Flight training standards in Australia have descended to rubbish in the past 20 years.

The last 2 weeks with regards to injuries and fatalities clearly demonstrates this.

Very basic Pilot survival skills and fundamental procedures are being ignored by some pilots, resulting in accidents (how not to kill yourself and those on board your aircraft).

However there are still a few good trainers around.
Disclaimer: My personal starting point is that I know SFA about flying.

That said, and having flown into Porepunkah, I cannot understand how Mr. 182 could possibly think a pre dawn departure was acceptable from that airstrip.

As to standards, consider the idiot newly minted RAA pilot who departed Mt Beauty in a jabiru, allegedly to transit the great divide for Wollongong, in what was definitely not VFR conditions, and killed himself in the first valley he attempted.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...LY1md3EfXhvcAr

I wonder if the entire box ticking "competency based" education and assessment system is fundamentally flawed if it keeps producing pilots who keep making such flawed risk assessments.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 22:11
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
Duck Pilot:

Disclaimer: My personal starting point is that I know SFA about flying.

That said, and having flown into Porepunkah, I cannot understand how Mr. 182 could possibly think a pre dawn departure was acceptable from that airstrip.

As to standards, consider the idiot newly minted RAA pilot who departed Mt Beauty in a jabiru, allegedly to transit the great divide for Wollongong, in what was definitely not VFR conditions, and killed himself in the first valley he attempted.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...LY1md3EfXhvcAr

I wonder if the entire box ticking "competency based" education and assessment system is fundamentally flawed if it keeps producing pilots who keep making such flawed risk assessments.
Read the crash comics from the fifties and sixties. None of this is new. To blame training when pilots blatantly break rules is ridiculous.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 01:09
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That said, and having flown into Porepunkah, I cannot understand how Mr. 182 could possibly think a pre dawn departure was acceptable from that airstrip.
I am not talking about this accident or this pilot because I know nothing about him or the prang and I have never been to Porepunkah

What I am asking is this:


1. Is runway edge lighting mandatory for Private NVFR departures either here or in The USA?
2. Is it legal to take off NVFR without runway edge lighting in any circumstances (mercy flight perhaps)?

Sorry folks, I don't have time to read the required rules but would appreciate it muchly if anyone could point me to them

3. Is it not possible or even the taught way to take off NVFR and immediately go to instruments for the initial climb out until a horizon can be established?
4. Assuming a straight forward takeoff, could not a competent NVFR pilot fly on instruments at the best angle till say 300 AGL then at the best rate till LSALT?
5. After establishing a horizon (remember this is NVFR) could not the pilot use VFR to remain clear of terrain whilst climbing to LSALT (remain in circling area). I doubt there is a circling area for this ALA but this is scenario based thinking.

Just asking. RememberI, I haven'ti been to this ALA but perhaps this is what I would have done a dozen years or more ago at another ALA in another life. These days I would rather be in bed, not my cup of tea at all so to speak!
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 01:41
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
I am not talking about this accident or this pilot because I know nothing about him or the prang and I have never been to Porepunkah

What I am asking is this:


1. Is runway edge lighting mandatory for Private NVFR departures either here or in The USA?
2. Is it legal to take off NVFR without runway edge lighting in any circumstances (mercy flight perhaps)?

Sorry folks, I don't have time to read the required rules but would appreciate it muchly if anyone could point me to them

3. Is it not possible or even the taught way to take off NVFR and immediately go to instruments for the initial climb out until a horizon can be established?
4. Assuming a straight forward takeoff, could not a competent NVFR pilot fly on instruments at the best angle till say 300 AGL then at the best rate till LSALT?
5. After establishing a horizon (remember this is NVFR) could not the pilot use VFR to remain clear of terrain whilst climbing to LSALT (remain in circling area). I doubt there is a circling area for this ALA but this is scenario based thinking.

Just asking. RememberI, I haven'ti been to this ALA but perhaps this is what I would have done a dozen years or more ago at another ALA in another life. These days I would rather be in bed, not my cup of tea at all so to speak!
.
Just one question - what horizon ? 😳
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 02:02
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1. Is runway edge lighting mandatory for Private NVFR departures either here or in The USA?
2. Is it legal to take off NVFR without runway edge lighting in any circumstances (mercy flight perhaps)?
Eighteen years since I was current

Q1. Don't know if it's mandatory today but it would be decidedly stupid to not have lighting for an immediate return should that be necessary
Q2. Mercy flight you could do what ever you thought necessary, rules didn't exist, though you may have to explain yourself to the authority
Q3. NVMC - unless the rules have changed and mention celestial lighting, what horizon?
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 02:28
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Just one question - what horizon ? 😳
Q3. NVMC - unless the rules have changed and mention celestial lighting, what horizon?
Let's assume there is a full moon then. The horizon is what it is, on some nights crystal clear and on others clear as mud. NVFR folks is Night Visual Flight Rules, WTF does the visual bit mean if I can't look outside?

What is a visual departure at night? Surely not just by looking down?
What is a visual arrival at night? Not just runway edge lighting?

I am talking NVFR here not IFR! Every night VFR pilot I have ever trained or tested has always at least tried to establish a horizon during the flight when it is safe. Are you telling me they shouldn't? Heck, why don't we just make it IFR?
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 02:48
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Heck, why don't we just make it IFR?
As anyone who has done real NVMC flying can tell you there are times when you have to be on top of your IMC skills, out in the GAFA on a moonless night (killed an ABC film crew in a helo near Lake Eyre), or try offshore on a moonless night, you can see SFA, including horizon, beyond your warm cocoon.
WTF does the visual bit mean if I can't look outside
It merely dictates the weather necessary to conduct the flight, a pitch black night the first indication you'll have of flying into a cloud will be the reflection off the cloud of the anti collision light.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 02:56
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Heck, why don't we just make it IFR?
The only way to fly NVFR safely is to essentially rely on the techniques used under the IFR…..thats exactly what is should be.

The company I worked for banned NVFR flying…if it was night, you flew IFR…end of discussion
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 02:58
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The main purpose of NVFR as it was explained to me was to allow a pilot to get to their intended destination after last light. It is not and never has been a rating to fly at night from an unlit airfield surrounded by big hills.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 04:02
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
The main purpose of NVFR as it was explained to me was to allow a pilot to get to their intended destination after last light. It is not and never has been a rating to fly at night from an unlit airfield surrounded by big hills.
That comment is commonly shared, however is not backed up by law (as you most likely well know). It’s very good advice though!

The other old-school comment was that the NVFR rating is a class-4 instrument rating.

A long time since my night training, however black hole departures were definitely on the syllabus I was on. As to what extent flying schools teach them is anyones guess. Some schools in Melbourne would take you to Flinders Island for a REAL black hole departure!

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Old 6th Jan 2023, 05:00
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The other old-school comment was that the NVFR rating is a class-4 instrument rating
Class 4 instrument rating was what the authority called a NVFR rating in the old days, I had one. It's a pity they dropped the word "Instrument" because it removed an element stressing the skills required.
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