Unfriendliest airport for GA in Australia?
Care to think about the cost of a kilometer of two lane highway? ....And the associated maintenance costs.
Aerodrome maintenance is insignificant compared to road costs and the wear created by a GA aircraft is insignificant compared to a B double.
Aerodrome maintenance is insignificant compared to road costs and the wear created by a GA aircraft is insignificant compared to a B double.
In it's most literal sense, yes. I don't know why you think society owes you something, or you have stepped outside the realms of ordinary, just because you can fly.
Myriad aerodromes were part of Australia’s defence capability in WWII. Of course, there won’t be another set of circumstances in which Australia will have to try to be self-sufficient for more that a few weeks, will there. You can relax: Some other country will always come and save you.
I'm not 'owed' anything. I just don't like paying twice for something for which I've already paid, or being treated like I'm some kind of self-indulgent fringe dweller.
You evidently didn’t read, or if you did you didn’t understand, that the way in which the YCTM Council accounts for aerodrome expenses and income artificially exaggerates expenses and excludes actual income generated by aerodrome land. It’s only making a “loss” because actual money actually generated by actual aerodrome land is actually excluded as income. Unless and until I see the actual books and financial management practices in relation to any aerodrome, I don’t believe the claim that it’s making a loss. I’m sure the people making the claim will be able to point to a list of expenses and income, but it’s rarely the whole story. And often there's a strong incentive to paint the aerodrome in as worst possible light as it can be.
Last edited by Clinton McKenzie; 7th May 2022 at 08:03.
It is so typical of bureaucrats, isn’t it tossbag?
(I know: Private aviation has no intrinsic value. The skills and knowledge and capability are completely worthless to society. It’s just self-indulgence.)
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Unfortunately, now back in 'the real world' of Australia, as all good things must eventually come to an end. Looking forward to returning to Japan next year, but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
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There was a whisper going round my neck of the woods a while ago that one local Councillor (non-Aviation minded) wanted to introduce landing fees to all aircraft at the two airstrips in the area.
He was firmly told by fellow Councillors in words that could not be misinterpreted or misunderstood in any possible way to ''Fuggeddabowdit!"
(I think the term actually used was something along the lines of STFU.
)
He was firmly told by fellow Councillors in words that could not be misinterpreted or misunderstood in any possible way to ''Fuggeddabowdit!"
(I think the term actually used was something along the lines of STFU.
)
Care to think about the cost of a kilometer of two lane highway? ....And the associated maintenance costs.
Aerodrome maintenance is insignificant compared to road costs
Aerodrome maintenance is insignificant compared to road costs
you’re comfortable that ‘someone else’ will always provide most of the country’s defence and commercial aviation materiel and capability.
USA’s ongoing capability to design, construct, maintain and crew some of the best if not the best transport category civil aircraft and airborne defence systems on the planet.
Myriad aerodromes were part of Australia’s defence capability in WWII.
I don't understand why you continue to conflate your reluctance to pay landing fees, with the future defence of this country? If you think the existence of such aerodromes is such a national necessity, pay the f*cking fees and help keep them open. Consider it as doing your bit.
I just don't like paying twice for something for which I've already paid,
Somebody best advise all those pesky, bludger private pilots that cart around those in angelflights.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 9th May 2022 at 00:52.
That's why I said "in it's most literal sense".Jim Bloggs taking someone to hospital because otherwise they can't get there, that's one thing. Joe taking taking his quick flit around the bay, doing the bare minimum to maintain currency, is just indulging his hobby. I would hazard there's a lot more of the latter in private flying than the former.
Preparation involved the purchase of 150L of unleaded from the local servo ($270), sundry bits and pieces like a new phone charger, emergency water and food, spare oil, fuel and oil filters just in case a tool roll and tie down kit. Travel via waypoints YSHT, YECH, YKER, YSWH, YWTO to YBHI. Two stops for comfort breaks and a sandwich.
Three nights in Broken Hill and two days car hire plus meals. ($1000).
Three very very wonderful days and nights at YARK - Arkaroola.( Accomodation food and fuel about $900). if you haven't been there put it on you bucket list! Doug Sprigg, as always, is the perfect host. Arkaroola is a very special place....and then two inches of overnight rain and Three around Innamincka put paid to going further North. The trip back took two days and cost about $600.
Total spend at least $2770, it would have been more if the airstrip wasn't flooded at the tree because I was planning YINN and YTIB on the way home. = Now this is just one old fart going away for a week. I dont have time to do the trip in a landcruiser these days (i'd still be stuck because the roads are closed, but that is another matter).
Now consider some of my friends and acquaintances - Mum Dad and two kids in a C182 who want to see a lot of Australia but are time poor or the retired couple in their Bonanza who like a luxury getaway every now and then - they were going IFR back to YMMB from YARK in an afternoon! There are plenty of people who have money to spend, are time poor and want to go special places where Qantas doesn't fly. Both of those acquaintances will spend three or four times what I spend.
GA travellers hemorrhage money into local communities everywhere they go - and those places aren't necessarily frequented by grey nomads with caravans and the majority of the aviators spending doesnt show up directly in Council accounts.
However to do any of this travel, you need the GA infrastructure to support it. Engineers, spare parts, fuel, airports. I am relatively self sufficient. In a certified VH registered aircraft you are less so, You need the infrastructure and every time an aviation business closes, anywhere, perhaps because of a bloody minded council raising rents, our options and freedom of action just got reduced because we have one less supplier.
Now when you consider the above and the barriers that the Government through CASA and local government put in the way of private pilots, you just might get a sense of the economic potential of even this small part of GA if we could only unlock it..
How dare you, you privileged, white, boomer, male, owner of inner city real estate that has increased exponentially in value, mysogynist, sexist, racist, pilot (what have I missed?) How dare you expect basic services, how dare you expect a runway to be the same as a highway, you elite prick!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Unfortunately, now back in 'the real world' of Australia, as all good things must eventually come to an end. Looking forward to returning to Japan next year, but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,912
Received 44 Likes
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How dare you, you privileged, white, boomer, male, owner of inner city real estate that has increased exponentially in value, mysogynist, sexist, racist, pilot (what have I missed?) How dare you expect basic services, how dare you expect a runway to be the same as a highway, you elite prick!
Exactly the sort of rant I'd expect from a card-carrying member of the Greens Party!
Except that the rants I have heard from the above mentioned Watermelon Party members didn't bring up any mention of inner city real estate ownership, mainly because that is exactly what they were! ie Owners of inner city real estate.
It's great to have a 'social concience' when you are better off financially than the rest of the sweating masses!
Pinky, every socialist/communist do gooder in this country, like Cannon Brookes, Turnbull, Forrest et al, coincidentally have made their fortune first, then turn into a zealot, go figure
All's not lost just yet, tossbag. I'm sure Twiggy's still a pretty shrewd capitalist!
How dare you expect basic services, how dare you expect a runway to be the same as a highway,
Quite right. But it is still an entry point into the town. And if you want me to visit, don't charge me such high fees unless you charge everyone else who enters town. Afterall, ratepayers fund (most) roads in their LGA's.
When the Council has paid parking, then paying for parking on their aerodrome is fair, IMHO. But not if they have no paid parking in their LGA - because they are being selective in who they charge. Why charge aircraft ("to maintain the airport and cover the budget to do so" in your words) when the road budget for most Council's is significantly higher than the aerodrome budget? When you go to the Council swimming pool, do you pay for parking in the pool carpark - or do you just pay an entry fee for the pool?
Would it not make more sense to have toll roads and paid parking to offset the expenses incurred in maintaining the Council road network? Of course. But most regional Council's don't. Why? Because they know full well it'd be political suicide to introduce paid parking at Temora, or Narromine, or Scone - but those rich pilots who dare fly in? They're fair game at most airports.
Originally Posted by T_I_E_W
I don't like paying for the use of the council swimming pool or putting money in a parking meter any more than the next rate payer, but I don't throw my dummy out of the cot ranting "it's so not fair, I've already paid for all this" when I do. Or is it only selective? When you go to Byron Bay, do you also bitch about paying at the parking meter (and they are literally everywhere), and refuse to, on the basis you're bringing so much money into the town?
Would it not make more sense to have toll roads and paid parking to offset the expenses incurred in maintaining the Council road network? Of course. But most regional Council's don't. Why? Because they know full well it'd be political suicide to introduce paid parking at Temora, or Narromine, or Scone - but those rich pilots who dare fly in? They're fair game at most airports.
Pinky, every socialist/communist do gooder in this country, like Cannon Brookes, Turnbull, Forrest et al, coincidentally have made their fortune first, then turn into a zealot, go figure
When the Council has paid parking, then paying for parking on their aerodrome is fair, IMHO. But not if they have no paid parking in their LGA - because they are being selective in who they charge. Why charge aircraft ("to maintain the airport and cover the budget to do so" in your words) when the road budget for most Council's is significantly higher than the aerodrome budget? When you go to the Council swimming pool, do you pay for parking in the pool carpark - or do you just pay an entry fee for the pool?
Would it not make more sense to have toll roads and paid parking to offset the expenses incurred in maintaining the Council road network? Of course. But most regional Council's don't. Why? Because they know full well it'd be political suicide to introduce paid parking at Temora, or Narromine, or Scone - but those rich pilots who dare fly in? They're fair game at most airports.
Would it not make more sense to have toll roads and paid parking to offset the expenses incurred in maintaining the Council road network? Of course. But most regional Council's don't. Why? Because they know full well it'd be political suicide to introduce paid parking at Temora, or Narromine, or Scone - but those rich pilots who dare fly in? They're fair game at most airports.
But it's not a basic service, and it's not a highway. It's like saying the council has to provide a golf course, just because you want to play golf. It's a piece of privately owned infrastructure that the owners have every right to charge a fee for the use of if they so desire, much as should the council decide to provide a council owned golf course, they're going to charge you a fee to use it. I don't like paying for the use of the council swimming pool or putting money in a parking meter any more than the next rate payer, but I don't throw my dummy out of the cot ranting "it's so not fair, I've already paid for all this" when I do. Or is it only selective? When you go to Byron Bay, do you also bitch about paying at the parking meter (and they are literally everywhere), and refuse to, on the basis you're bringing so much money into the town?
All's not lost just yet, tossbag. I'm sure Twiggy's still a pretty shrewd capitalist!
For the record, I don't care how much wealth a hard working person makes, when it comes with the sanctimonious bullshit it's on the nose.
As usual, TIEW, you paint the narrowest and most negative picture of private aviation you can. People going on a “quick flit around the bay, doing the bare minimum to maintain currency, is just indulging his hobby.” Are you able to explain how you know what every private pilot does each and every time he or she goes flying? And now you presume to tell me how to spend my money.
Sounding a bit arrogant to me, TIEW.
In a group I follow a question recently came up about what someone described as a ‘zipper’ in the wings of the Sabre at Temora. (Coincidentally, I fitted an upgraded VHF to the aircraft when it was being refurbished at 2AD.) The ‘zipper’ is a piano hinge. Same system used on the wings of the Bonanza I used to fly. Same system used on the cowling of the RV9A I currently fly. Same system used on the Orion maritime surveillance aircraft. And…same system used on tens of thousands of other in-service military aircraft.
I know this is going to sound really corny to some in the lucky country, but the experimental aviation sector in the USA has the capability to build B52 bomber airframes. Same techniques as used to build many ‘light aircraft’. Most of the people who fly those military aircraft in the USA start out in private aviation. That’s one of the reasons why experimental and private aviation is not seen as a fringe dwelling indulgence in the USA. They are encouraged and nurtured. The USA doesn’t have the luxury of relying on anyone else to defend it. And the USA knows that aviation capability can’t be created overnight.
What military aircraft could Australia build from the ‘ground up’? Who cares, someone else will build them. Pilots? Import them too. Kick back and relax.
The current ‘received wisdom’ is that Australia has the capability to sustain a fight for about two weeks. Plenty of time for someone else to step in and save us. Private civilian aviation is just an unnecessary indulgence.
Sounding a bit arrogant to me, TIEW.
In a group I follow a question recently came up about what someone described as a ‘zipper’ in the wings of the Sabre at Temora. (Coincidentally, I fitted an upgraded VHF to the aircraft when it was being refurbished at 2AD.) The ‘zipper’ is a piano hinge. Same system used on the wings of the Bonanza I used to fly. Same system used on the cowling of the RV9A I currently fly. Same system used on the Orion maritime surveillance aircraft. And…same system used on tens of thousands of other in-service military aircraft.
I know this is going to sound really corny to some in the lucky country, but the experimental aviation sector in the USA has the capability to build B52 bomber airframes. Same techniques as used to build many ‘light aircraft’. Most of the people who fly those military aircraft in the USA start out in private aviation. That’s one of the reasons why experimental and private aviation is not seen as a fringe dwelling indulgence in the USA. They are encouraged and nurtured. The USA doesn’t have the luxury of relying on anyone else to defend it. And the USA knows that aviation capability can’t be created overnight.
What military aircraft could Australia build from the ‘ground up’? Who cares, someone else will build them. Pilots? Import them too. Kick back and relax.
The current ‘received wisdom’ is that Australia has the capability to sustain a fight for about two weeks. Plenty of time for someone else to step in and save us. Private civilian aviation is just an unnecessary indulgence.
Clinton, you're wasting your time mate, he/she knows the cost of everything, the value of nothing. Go to Byron Bay you elitist and pay some airport parking why don't ya.
No, I just think that the argument that local aerodromes charging a landing fee has resulted in this country being unable to build indigenous 5th generation fighter aircraft is a particularly stupid one. In the years preceding the end of the ALOP scheme, we weren't exactly an aviation powerhouse, so nothing has changed. You think Russia or China or anyone else likely to attack us has a massive military because they have a healthy GA sector? You think the RAAF is struggling for pilot applicants because noone applying already has their PPL?
To probably 99.99% of the Australian population, that's exactly how it's seen. To Bruce and Sheila, standing around their backyard barbie, looking up at Sunfish fly over on his way to YARK, do you think that they think he is performing some function vital to the future history of this nation? That's if they even look up. No one gives a sh*t about whether you have to pay landing fees or not, or whether you feel hard done by.
Private civilian aviation is just an unnecessary indulgence.
