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Unfriendliest airport for GA in Australia?

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Unfriendliest airport for GA in Australia?

Old 7th May 2022, 03:10
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Care to think about the cost of a kilometer of two lane highway? ....And the associated maintenance costs.

Aerodrome maintenance is insignificant compared to road costs and the wear created by a GA aircraft is insignificant compared to a B double.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:56
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In it's most literal sense, yes. I don't know why you think society owes you something, or you have stepped outside the realms of ordinary, just because you can fly.
That’s because in your lucky country, you’re comfortable that ‘someone else’ will always provide most of the country’s defence and commercial aviation materiel and capability. In your world, private aviation contributes nothing to that capability. There is an existential reason for civil aviation being part of the ‘cultural DNA’ of the USA. Experimental and general aviation in the USA are part of a fundamental foundation of the USA’s ongoing capability to design, construct, maintain and crew some of the best if not the best transport category civil aircraft and airborne defence systems on the planet.

Myriad aerodromes were part of Australia’s defence capability in WWII. Of course, there won’t be another set of circumstances in which Australia will have to try to be self-sufficient for more that a few weeks, will there. You can relax: Some other country will always come and save you.

I'm not 'owed' anything. I just don't like paying twice for something for which I've already paid, or being treated like I'm some kind of self-indulgent fringe dweller.

You evidently didn’t read, or if you did you didn’t understand, that the way in which the YCTM Council accounts for aerodrome expenses and income artificially exaggerates expenses and excludes actual income generated by aerodrome land. It’s only making a “loss” because actual money actually generated by actual aerodrome land is actually excluded as income. Unless and until I see the actual books and financial management practices in relation to any aerodrome, I don’t believe the claim that it’s making a loss. I’m sure the people making the claim will be able to point to a list of expenses and income, but it’s rarely the whole story. And often there's a strong incentive to paint the aerodrome in as worst possible light as it can be.

Last edited by Clinton McKenzie; 7th May 2022 at 07:03.
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Old 7th May 2022, 06:40
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It is so typical of bureaucrats, isn’t it tossbag?
And the user pay zealots who continually effing whinge about what they shouldn't have to pay for. I put one child through school but you put 6 through, you should pay more, I'm subsidising your children etc

(I know: Private aviation has no intrinsic value. The skills and knowledge and capability are completely worthless to society. It’s just self-indulgence.)
Somebody best advise all those pesky, bludger private pilots that cart around those in angelflights.
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Old 7th May 2022, 07:05
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CASA's doing its level best to scaremonger 'community service flights' into the ground, too.
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Old 7th May 2022, 07:38
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There was a whisper going round my neck of the woods a while ago that one local Councillor (non-Aviation minded) wanted to introduce landing fees to all aircraft at the two airstrips in the area.

He was firmly told by fellow Councillors in words that could not be misinterpreted or misunderstood in any possible way to ''Fuggeddabowdit!"

(I think the term actually used was something along the lines of STFU.)
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Old 8th May 2022, 23:11
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Care to think about the cost of a kilometer of two lane highway? ....And the associated maintenance costs.

Aerodrome maintenance is insignificant compared to road costs
A kilometre of road can be used by anybody. A kilometre of aerodrome which must be maintained to a higher regulated and audited standard irrespective of whether it is in use or not, cannot. Do you have to put lights down either side of that kilometre of road if someone wants to use it at night? Do you have to mow the grass out to a certain distance either side of the road and keep it mowed before it is legal to use it? Do you have to produce and maintain a manual about how that kilometre of road is used? Do you have to publish nationally any change in the status of that road? Do you have to appoint, train, retain, and perhaps pay for a staff member or members who's sole function is to look after that single kilometre of road? Of course not. It again is a spurious argument.
you’re comfortable that ‘someone else’ will always provide most of the country’s defence and commercial aviation materiel and capability.
Joe Bloggs in his Cirrus doing a quick jolly around Port Phillip Bay is contributing to this how?
USA’s ongoing capability to design, construct, maintain and crew some of the best if not the best transport category civil aircraft and airborne defence systems on the planet.
I would suspect that having a truly massive military-industrial complex would have a little more to do with it.
Myriad aerodromes were part of Australia’s defence capability in WWII.
Eighty years ago in a completely different technological environment. Not that you're clutching at straws, but.......
I don't understand why you continue to conflate your reluctance to pay landing fees, with the future defence of this country? If you think the existence of such aerodromes is such a national necessity, pay the f*cking fees and help keep them open. Consider it as doing your bit.
I just don't like paying twice for something for which I've already paid,
What have you already paid for? Your taxes stopped paying for aerodromes 30 years ago, If you fly to another aerodrome outside your council area, you certainly haven't paid for any works done in the last 20 years that the ALOP grants didn't cover.
Somebody best advise all those pesky, bludger private pilots that cart around those in angelflights.
That's why I said "in it's most literal sense".Jim Bloggs taking someone to hospital because otherwise they can't get there, that's one thing. Joe taking taking his quick flit around the bay, doing the bare minimum to maintain currency, is just indulging his hobby. I would hazard there's a lot more of the latter in private flying than the former.

Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 8th May 2022 at 23:52.
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Old 9th May 2022, 08:30
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That's why I said "in it's most literal sense".Jim Bloggs taking someone to hospital because otherwise they can't get there, that's one thing. Joe taking taking his quick flit around the bay, doing the bare minimum to maintain currency, is just indulging his hobby. I would hazard there's a lot more of the latter in private flying than the former.
Two weeks ago I decided to return to my old haunts and headed for the Dig Tree.

Preparation involved the purchase of 150L of unleaded from the local servo ($270), sundry bits and pieces like a new phone charger, emergency water and food, spare oil, fuel and oil filters just in case a tool roll and tie down kit. Travel via waypoints YSHT, YECH, YKER, YSWH, YWTO to YBHI. Two stops for comfort breaks and a sandwich.

Three nights in Broken Hill and two days car hire plus meals. ($1000).

Three very very wonderful days and nights at YARK - Arkaroola.( Accomodation food and fuel about $900). if you haven't been there put it on you bucket list! Doug Sprigg, as always, is the perfect host. Arkaroola is a very special place....and then two inches of overnight rain and Three around Innamincka put paid to going further North. The trip back took two days and cost about $600.

Total spend at least $2770, it would have been more if the airstrip wasn't flooded at the tree because I was planning YINN and YTIB on the way home. = Now this is just one old fart going away for a week. I dont have time to do the trip in a landcruiser these days (i'd still be stuck because the roads are closed, but that is another matter).

Now consider some of my friends and acquaintances - Mum Dad and two kids in a C182 who want to see a lot of Australia but are time poor or the retired couple in their Bonanza who like a luxury getaway every now and then - they were going IFR back to YMMB from YARK in an afternoon! There are plenty of people who have money to spend, are time poor and want to go special places where Qantas doesn't fly. Both of those acquaintances will spend three or four times what I spend.

GA travellers hemorrhage money into local communities everywhere they go - and those places aren't necessarily frequented by grey nomads with caravans and the majority of the aviators spending doesnt show up directly in Council accounts.

However to do any of this travel, you need the GA infrastructure to support it. Engineers, spare parts, fuel, airports. I am relatively self sufficient. In a certified VH registered aircraft you are less so, You need the infrastructure and every time an aviation business closes, anywhere, perhaps because of a bloody minded council raising rents, our options and freedom of action just got reduced because we have one less supplier.

Now when you consider the above and the barriers that the Government through CASA and local government put in the way of private pilots, you just might get a sense of the economic potential of even this small part of GA if we could only unlock it..
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Old 9th May 2022, 09:54
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How dare you, you privileged, white, boomer, male, owner of inner city real estate that has increased exponentially in value, mysogynist, sexist, racist, pilot (what have I missed?) How dare you expect basic services, how dare you expect a runway to be the same as a highway, you elite prick!
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Old 9th May 2022, 11:23
  #89 (permalink)  
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Devil

How dare you, you privileged, white, boomer, male, owner of inner city real estate that has increased exponentially in value, mysogynist, sexist, racist, pilot (what have I missed?) How dare you expect basic services, how dare you expect a runway to be the same as a highway, you elite prick!
Very good parody there, Tossbag! Exactly the sort of rant I'd expect from a card-carrying member of the Greens Party!

Except that the rants I have heard from the above mentioned Watermelon Party members didn't bring up any mention of inner city real estate ownership, mainly because that is exactly what they were! ie Owners of inner city real estate.

It's great to have a 'social concience' when you are better off financially than the rest of the sweating masses!



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Old 9th May 2022, 11:36
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Pinky, every socialist/communist do gooder in this country, like Cannon Brookes, Turnbull, Forrest et al, coincidentally have made their fortune first, then turn into a zealot, go figure
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Old 9th May 2022, 14:00
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Originally Posted by tossbag View Post
Pinky, every socialist/communist do gooder in this country, like Cannon Brookes, Turnbull, Forrest et al, coincidentally have made their fortune first, then turn into a zealot, go figure
All's not lost just yet, tossbag. I'm sure Twiggy's still a pretty shrewd capitalist!
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Old 10th May 2022, 00:20
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How dare you expect basic services, how dare you expect a runway to be the same as a highway,
But it's not a basic service, and it's not a highway. It's like saying the council has to provide a golf course, just because you want to play golf. It's a piece of privately owned infrastructure that the owners have every right to charge a fee for the use of if they so desire, much as should the council decide to provide a council owned golf course, they're going to charge you a fee to use it. I don't like paying for the use of the council swimming pool or putting money in a parking meter any more than the next rate payer, but I don't throw my dummy out of the cot ranting "it's so not fair, I've already paid for all this" when I do. Or is it only selective? When you go to Byron Bay, do you also bitch about paying at the parking meter (and they are literally everywhere), and refuse to, on the basis you're bringing so much money into the town?
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:13
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
But it's not a basic service, and it's not a highway.
Quite right. But it is still an entry point into the town. And if you want me to visit, don't charge me such high fees unless you charge everyone else who enters town. Afterall, ratepayers fund (most) roads in their LGA's.
Originally Posted by T_I_E_W
I don't like paying for the use of the council swimming pool or putting money in a parking meter any more than the next rate payer, but I don't throw my dummy out of the cot ranting "it's so not fair, I've already paid for all this" when I do. Or is it only selective? When you go to Byron Bay, do you also bitch about paying at the parking meter (and they are literally everywhere), and refuse to, on the basis you're bringing so much money into the town?
When the Council has paid parking, then paying for parking on their aerodrome is fair, IMHO. But not if they have no paid parking in their LGA - because they are being selective in who they charge. Why charge aircraft ("to maintain the airport and cover the budget to do so" in your words) when the road budget for most Council's is significantly higher than the aerodrome budget? When you go to the Council swimming pool, do you pay for parking in the pool carpark - or do you just pay an entry fee for the pool?

Would it not make more sense to have toll roads and paid parking to offset the expenses incurred in maintaining the Council road network? Of course. But most regional Council's don't. Why? Because they know full well it'd be political suicide to introduce paid parking at Temora, or Narromine, or Scone - but those rich pilots who dare fly in? They're fair game at most airports.
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:21
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Pinky, every socialist/communist do gooder in this country, like Cannon Brookes, Turnbull, Forrest et al, coincidentally have made their fortune first, then turn into a zealot, go figure
Yes that's the way it usually works out because once you become really rich you want to protect your wealth at all cost second to none. So your allegiances to anything including country are thrown out the window. Once you're at the top of the tree Socialism is probably the best way of protecting your wealth as it stops any type of educated middle class kid inventing something that is a threat to your business or wealth. It also reduces the availability of health and various other technologies/luxuries to the middle classes. And if you are invaded by say a Communist Country you can either leave to another country or just join the upper echelons of the invaders and preserve your wealth while the middle classes are destroyed.
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:26
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When the Council has paid parking, then paying for parking on their aerodrome is fair, IMHO. But not if they have no paid parking in their LGA - because they are being selective in who they charge. Why charge aircraft ("to maintain the airport and cover the budget to do so" in your words) when the road budget for most Council's is significantly higher than the aerodrome budget? When you go to the Council swimming pool, do you pay for parking in the pool carpark - or do you just pay an entry fee for the pool?

Would it not make more sense to have toll roads and paid parking to offset the expenses incurred in maintaining the Council road network? Of course. But most regional Council's don't. Why? Because they know full well it'd be political suicide to introduce paid parking at Temora, or Narromine, or Scone - but those rich pilots who dare fly in? They're fair game at most airports.
It's a very Australian thing but governments in this country seem to hate aviation and I have never really understood why. Whether that is a full blown conspiracy or just the nature of bureaucracy I don't know. Most likely the latter however it is everywhere. It is almost like governments in this country do not want any aviation activity to exist at all. Roads and railways are the only "approved" form of transport and they will subsidise those inefficient forms of transport forever regardless of cost, be it environmental or monetary.
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:28
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But it's not a basic service, and it's not a highway. It's like saying the council has to provide a golf course, just because you want to play golf. It's a piece of privately owned infrastructure that the owners have every right to charge a fee for the use of if they so desire, much as should the council decide to provide a council owned golf course, they're going to charge you a fee to use it. I don't like paying for the use of the council swimming pool or putting money in a parking meter any more than the next rate payer, but I don't throw my dummy out of the cot ranting "it's so not fair, I've already paid for all this" when I do. Or is it only selective? When you go to Byron Bay, do you also bitch about paying at the parking meter (and they are literally everywhere), and refuse to, on the basis you're bringing so much money into the town?
mmmm, yeah, Byron Bay is not really my scene.
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:33
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All's not lost just yet, tossbag. I'm sure Twiggy's still a pretty shrewd capitalist!
None of the new found socialists complete with their new found conscience ever pull stumps on the wealth generation.

For the record, I don't care how much wealth a hard working person makes, when it comes with the sanctimonious bullshit it's on the nose.
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Old 14th May 2022, 04:17
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As usual, TIEW, you paint the narrowest and most negative picture of private aviation you can. People going on a “quick flit around the bay, doing the bare minimum to maintain currency, is just indulging his hobby.” Are you able to explain how you know what every private pilot does each and every time he or she goes flying? And now you presume to tell me how to spend my money.

Sounding a bit arrogant to me, TIEW.

In a group I follow a question recently came up about what someone described as a ‘zipper’ in the wings of the Sabre at Temora. (Coincidentally, I fitted an upgraded VHF to the aircraft when it was being refurbished at 2AD.) The ‘zipper’ is a piano hinge. Same system used on the wings of the Bonanza I used to fly. Same system used on the cowling of the RV9A I currently fly. Same system used on the Orion maritime surveillance aircraft. And…same system used on tens of thousands of other in-service military aircraft.

I know this is going to sound really corny to some in the lucky country, but the experimental aviation sector in the USA has the capability to build B52 bomber airframes. Same techniques as used to build many ‘light aircraft’. Most of the people who fly those military aircraft in the USA start out in private aviation. That’s one of the reasons why experimental and private aviation is not seen as a fringe dwelling indulgence in the USA. They are encouraged and nurtured. The USA doesn’t have the luxury of relying on anyone else to defend it. And the USA knows that aviation capability can’t be created overnight.

What military aircraft could Australia build from the ‘ground up’? Who cares, someone else will build them. Pilots? Import them too. Kick back and relax.

The current ‘received wisdom’ is that Australia has the capability to sustain a fight for about two weeks. Plenty of time for someone else to step in and save us. Private civilian aviation is just an unnecessary indulgence.
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Old 14th May 2022, 06:28
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Clinton, you're wasting your time mate, he/she knows the cost of everything, the value of nothing. Go to Byron Bay you elitist and pay some airport parking why don't ya.
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Old 15th May 2022, 00:55
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No, I just think that the argument that local aerodromes charging a landing fee has resulted in this country being unable to build indigenous 5th generation fighter aircraft is a particularly stupid one. In the years preceding the end of the ALOP scheme, we weren't exactly an aviation powerhouse, so nothing has changed. You think Russia or China or anyone else likely to attack us has a massive military because they have a healthy GA sector? You think the RAAF is struggling for pilot applicants because noone applying already has their PPL?
Private civilian aviation is just an unnecessary indulgence.
To probably 99.99% of the Australian population, that's exactly how it's seen. To Bruce and Sheila, standing around their backyard barbie, looking up at Sunfish fly over on his way to YARK, do you think that they think he is performing some function vital to the future history of this nation? That's if they even look up. No one gives a sh*t about whether you have to pay landing fees or not, or whether you feel hard done by.
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