The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

ADS-B “IN” at Ballina?

Old 2nd Apr 2022, 08:39
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 8,247
It doesn't.
According to this:

https://business.gov.au/grants-and-p...XVN9xOXGzf47mQ

It appears that a Jab, fitted with, would be seen by the SFIS and other aircraft which had ADS-B In. The fighter pilot in me likes that idea: "just give me a velocity vector!".
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 08:40
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 3,413
Old mate can have a government subsidized Skyecho.

Why don't we have a "CTAF (R + XPDR + ADSB)" requirement anywhere RPT operates together with a requirement that ASA maintain ADSB reception and use it for separation?

WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder +$900 for an approvable GPS source + $700 for ADSB - IN ..... and yet I'm not even allowed in controlled airspace? AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?

To put it another way, I can see old mate in his Jizzler 700 with his skyecho. I can't see the RPT Airbus inbound because he doesnt transmit ADSB (?). The Airbus can't see me unless we get close enough for her TCAS to generate an RA because she doesnt have ADSB - in, the Airbus also can't see Old Mate and AsA can't see any of us because there is no radar down low and it isn't even looking at ADSB at all?


This is only going to end one way ...... a smoking hole and a Royal Commission.


Last edited by Sunfish; 2nd Apr 2022 at 08:53.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 08:52
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 4,297
I look forward to ATSB, CASA and Air Services justifying an RPT aircraft full of passengers lost as a consequence of a collision with an RAAus aircraft in the vicinity of Ballina, on the basis that it’s the first of an extraordinarily unlikely event. A bit like a one-in-one thousand year flood or a shark attack at a Sydney beach.

No air traffic control in the surrounding airspace.

No control tower for the aerodrome.

An RAAus aircraft that is:

- Not certified airworthy by CASA.

- Not piloted by a person licensed by CASA.

- Not piloted by a person medically certified by CASA.

- Not required to carry a serviceable transponder.

All ‘legal’ and ‘not unsafe’, according to CASA and ATSB. Air Services couldn’t care less. It all makes perfect sense. I’m sure the travelling public will understand and move on.
Lead Balloon is online now  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 09:07
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 8,247
Sunfish:
WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder

Because TCAS will pick up your mode S. As far as avoiding heavy metal goes, that was the best investment you could have ever made.

To put it another way, I can see old mate in his Jizzler 700 with his skyecho. I can't see the RPT Airbus inbound because he doesnt transmit ADSB (?). The Airbus can't see me unless we get close enough for her TCAS to generate an RA because she doesnt have ADSB - in, the Airbus also can't see Old Mate and AsA can't see any of us because there is no radar down low and it isn't even looking at ADSB at all?

I may not be reading this right, but if you have ADS-B in, you'll see the A320 because we all have ADS-B out (IFR requirement since 2020(?) and you'll see the Jab if fitted with that gadget.

Likewise, if the A320 has ADS-B In, they will see other ADS-B Out aircraft.


Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 09:35
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 311
Sunfish
You appear not to understand the rules
VFR aircraft only Mode S transponder if operating in Class E or C airspace
ADS-B is not required for VFR
Why can’t you enter controlled airspace?
Vag277 is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:00
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by Vag277 View Post
Sunfish
You appear not to understand the rules
VFR aircraft only Mode S transponder if operating in Class E or C airspace
ADS-B is not required for VFR
Why can’t you enter controlled airspace?
Because he has NFI basically. Maybe it’s safer for us if he doesn’t fly in CTA.

The Airbus has probably had ADS-B OUT longer than you’ve had your IN Sunfish. Do keep up.
morno is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:04
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 4,297
Yet Sunfish is free to fly in the airspace around Ballina, whether his aircraft is or is not fitted with any 'ADS anything'.
Lead Balloon is online now  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:08
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 3,413
Thank you Capt. Bloggs, I was unaware of the ADSB out 2020 requirement for RPT. I lost a years flying thanks to Covid.

Vag, I understand and comply, however I don't understand why VFR aircraft (VH or RAA) without a transponder or radio(?) are permitted to operate in the vicinity of a CTAF with RPT operations.

RAA pilots are not approved to fly in CTA. An RAA aircraft may, provided it is equipped with a TSO'd radio and transponder and it is not precluded from flying over populous/ built up areas on its certificate and it is piloted by somone with a PPL and current BFR as well as an RAA certificate..

My normal practice as an amateur when inbound and an RPT aircraft calls inbound or departing is to defer to them and manoeuvre to keep well clear. A few orbits or slowing down until they are out of the way costs me nothing.

Yes, I work on the basis that i have NFI. I therefore plan and do revision.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:08
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: tossbagville
Posts: 405
AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?
ADSB is used extensively by ASA. If you are VFR chugging along the controller will see your ID (callsign) displayed on their ASD if you are in coverage. If you listen out on frequency you will hear them passing traffic on you to others, don't you wonder how they knew who you were without identifying yourself? It's because the ID is displayed whether you're squawking a discreet code OR 1200. ADSB out is worth every cent, ADSB in is worth even more, whatever way you are getting it, on your ipad, on your GPS unit or your PFD.

But Sunny, don't stare at the damn thing, eyes outside once you've gotten a warning. There are limitations on its use. Don't be a flog, there are too many flogs in CTAF's/MBA's/MBZ's.
tossbag is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:13
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 1,679
TCAS only needs a transponder, it does not need ADS-B in the other aircraft, just mode A, C or S. It can't make resolutions on Mode A though as it has no altitude readout to relate to, but it will give a warning of traffic via a TA. The range for TCAS is more than adequate almost always displaying traffic out to 10nm or greater, the display is only for situational awareness, not separation.

With regard to Ballina one point that I've also thought about with the A320 incident described above, is why it's allowed that a pushback can proceed that will block an aircraft vacating the runway. It needs to be written into procedures that pushback can not commence while an arrival may be forced to hold on the runway. This sort of thing can really only be solved by positive ATC control. Or some sort of holding allowance needs to be alerted that aircraft may have to hold for 10/20/30 minutes while RPT in operation to ensure they have adequate fuel. There needs to be coordination if an RPT procedure is going to cause delays due to aircraft size and movement area limitations.

It sounds to me that there is more than just the airborne issues at play here, if CASA is allowing multiple RPT jets into a port that can't handle them to be moving around at the same time without closing the runway strip.
43Inches is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 8,247
Originally Posted by 43Inches
It needs to be written into procedures that pushback can not commence while an arrival may be forced to hold on the runway.
Or that scrooge council can fork out some dollars and build a proper airport with bigger parking areas and a parallel taxiway. It makes you wonder what the airport manager is doing when he sees or hears that that is going on. Or the CAGRO.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:24
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 4,297
Comedy gold, Capn! Keep the laughs coming. Thanks.
Lead Balloon is online now  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 311
Sunfish
ADS-B mandate has been in place for ALL IFR aircraft for more than 6years. Why did you go down that path?
Vag277 is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 10:40
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 311
Sunfish
You are also wrong about RAA aircraft & pilots in controlled airspace. CASA has issued approvals where the training has taken place in controlled airspace. I suggest that you ask.
Vag277 is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 11:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 3,413
Vag, yes I've seen the yellow perils at YMMB in the past. However its for training only and once the trainees graduate with their RAA certificate and cease training, then for them its "no entry".

All this seems to be a peculiarly Australian problem. The USA seems to not have any of the same hangups we have in Australia.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 11:51
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,257
Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post

WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder +$900 for an approvable GPS source + $700 for ADSB - IN ..... and yet I'm not even allowed in controlled airspace? AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?

.

You were NOT forced to spend $5k on this and never was it mandated
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 14:50
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,105
Airservices doesn't have ADS-B IN at Ballina. No circuit level coverage at all.
Not much coverage below 3000ft https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...ds-b-coverage/. There are many locations with frequent high traffic levels that do not have low level ADSB coverage, such as Mangalore, Mildura etc. I find it interesting that there is no ADSB coverage in the Cairns area as they seem to rely on the radar there?? One would think that placing the required ground equipment at such locations would be in last years budget? Not designed for GA I guess as the $ are the priority, not safety?
triadic is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 15:47
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: You live where
Posts: 500
You'd think that every location that has a piece of AsA kit would be an ADSB location, every NDB, every VOR, every radar site, every VHF transmitter site, co-located with an ADSB group station.
missy is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 17:03
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 3,413
Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
You were NOT forced to spend $5k on this and never was it mandated
‘True, but at the time. (2013 - 2016) there was considerable debate on mandating some solution and it would have been impractical not to specify a mode S transponder as part of a new avionics installation. It is a requirement for class E anyway.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 22:03
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
‘True, but at the time. (2013 - 2016) there was considerable debate on mandating some solution and it would have been impractical not to specify a mode S transponder as part of a new avionics installation. It is a requirement for class E anyway.
So quit your whinging. Making out that the world is against you as usual Sunfish.
morno is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.