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-   -   ADS-B “IN” at Ballina? (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/645962-ads-b-ballina.html)

Dick Smith 31st Mar 2022 03:58

ADS-B “IN” at Ballina?
 
Does anyone know if the airline aircraft that currently fly into Ballina have ADS-B “IN” installed?

I look forward to any information on this.

Roj approved 31st Mar 2022 05:39

No for the A320

43Inches 31st Mar 2022 07:32

It sounds like a TCAS display, where you can see other traffic with altitude readout, so most RPT would have the traffic display portion in some amount these days. While ADSB-IN is not fitted to many airliners, TCAS II does the job currently, however no weather input or anything like that. Both systems require that the rogue aircraft also have transponders, however TCAS directly reads the other aircraft signal rather than get information from a ground transceiver.

Lead Balloon 31st Mar 2022 08:02

Alas, old mate in his Jizzler 700 isn't required to have a transponder in G is he, 43?

And you'd rather be in G rather than E, any day, wouldn't you 43?

43Inches 31st Mar 2022 10:20

I spend a great deal of my day in class G, yes, never had a problem with it. I suppose if you lack situational awareness you might need someone else to look over your shoulder for you... In any case ADSB or TCAS don't care what airspace it's in, it does the same thing.

Coming up to 30 years of flying in class G or equivalent and still havn't hit anything.

sunnySA 31st Mar 2022 10:33


Originally Posted by Dick Smith (Post 11208276)
Does anyone know if the airline aircraft that currently fly into Ballina have ADS-B “IN” installed?

I look forward to any information on this.

Dick, why Ballina? What's the motive behind the question?

Roo 31st Mar 2022 10:40


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11208344)
.. Both systems require that the rogue aircraft also have transponders, however TCAS directly reads the other aircraft signal rather than get information from a ground transceiver.

ADSB IN also directly reads other AC signal. No need for any ground transceiver.

43Inches 31st Mar 2022 10:42


ADSB IN also directly reads other AC signal. No need for any ground transceiver.
Good to know, I'm not that familiar with ADSB In, the notes on it seem to imply it was all sent by ground stations. But that means it's a lot more useful for close calls.

Capn Bloggs 31st Mar 2022 10:42


And you'd rather be in G rather than E, any day, wouldn't you 43?
Easy. Mandate transponders in MBZs below 10k. They're mandatory above 10k already.

Lead Balloon 31st Mar 2022 20:42

Are MBZ's back again? I missed that memo, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Australian airspace camel has re-sprouted that hump along with - what is the recent new hump? - is it 'SAFIS'?

West_Koios 1st Apr 2022 00:41

Airservices doesn't have ADS-B IN at Ballina. No circuit level coverage at all.

triadic 1st Apr 2022 05:28

One of my American friends once told me that many GA pilots fly in E the much the same way some here do in G.... take off, clear the CTAF, turn the radio down on whatever frequency and listen to music on the ADF.....! No interest in ATC unless they ask for "flight following" where ATC will provide a service (separation, wx etc) on a workload available basis.

missy 1st Apr 2022 06:24


Originally Posted by triadic (Post 11208890)
...listen to music on the ADF...

Gotta use those Bose™ headphones for something...

ACMS 1st Apr 2022 06:36

ADSB in is an option on Airbus selectable by the owner. I’ve seen it in A330’s etc and it seems to be of very good safety and operational value to enhance decision making both en route and in the terminal area.

Sadly most Airlines don’t option it. I know Hawaiian Airlines has it fitted.
It would be able to be retrofitted later pretty easily after spending $$$$$

Lead Balloon 1st Apr 2022 07:18

But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation.

neville_nobody 1st Apr 2022 08:18


But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation.
Now try that line with the executive whose budget it comes out of and watch the reaction........

And that's why everything is always to expensive in airlines.

Geoff Fairless 2nd Apr 2022 01:39


Originally Posted by sunnySA (Post 11208458)
Dick, why Ballina? What's the motive behind the question?

Sunny - I think Dick is interested because ATSB mention it in the Mangalore Investigation report.
I have flown in a Beaver from Ketchikan and watched ADS-B IN operating. The pilot used it to keep tabs on where the other Beavers were, and it was very useful for situational awareness. I'm not sure whether they used it as a separation tool, for instance they simply used 1500 ft in and 1000 ft out to maintain vertical separation in and out of Ketchikan even though they could see the other aircraft. As noted elsewhere in this thread it only identifies other ADS B equipped aircraft and there was no mandate for fitment, the company had made the investment themselves so their pilots could see each other.

sunnySA 2nd Apr 2022 06:42


Originally Posted by Geoff Fairless (Post 11209407)
Sunny - I think Dick is interested because ATSB mention it in the Mangalore Investigation report

Yes, ABS-B gets several mentions but no safety recommendation.


Originally Posted by Geoff Fairless (Post 11209407)
... the company had made the investment themselves so their pilots could see each other.

SouthEast Aviation obviously made an investment in safety to improve the situational awareness of their pilots.


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 11208909)
ADSB in is an option on Airbus selectable by the owner.


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 11208909)
Sadly most Airlines don’t option it.

Why? There is a long list of very questionable decisions made by those charged with responsibility for selecting aircraft. QF A332/A333 comes to mind. Big lags between placing an order, delivery and then the operational use of the aircraft which could be 10-25 years.

Aircraft avionics are light years ahead of ATC systems.

TAAATS is more than 20 years old and never was optimised but rather managed through a series of workarounds. What % of suggested improvements were ever adopted - 5%? Why, because the bean counters didn't agree, because AsA needs to provide a dividend to the government, because the Industry didn't want to pay for enhancements?


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11208928)
But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation.

Couldn't agree more but there needs to be a coherent vision for Australian Airspace management and technology. I understand that this is the responsibility of ASTRA


The Australian Strategic Air Traffic Management Group, ASTRA, is an aviation industry body dedicated to developing an optimum air traffic management system for Australia. As such, it is the Federal Government’s primary source of industry advice on air traffic management directions.
ASTRA brings together all of the industry stakeholders including aircraft operators, airports and service providers to develop and continuously review the ASTRA Strategic Air Traffic Management Plan and develop a recommended Target Operational Concept.
ASTRA also provides an industry-wide representative forum for developing the industry position on ATM matters as the basis for strategic advice to Government, and to coordinate agreed integrated ATM planning, development and implementation effort by all relevant ATM stakeholders.
Still functioning?


Originally Posted by ATSB-AO-2020-012
The ATSB also notes that ADS-B receivers, suitable for use on aircraft operating under both instrument or visual flight rules, are currently available within Australia at low cost and can be used without any additional regulatory approval or expense.

Yes, but no safety recommendation.

The National Airspace System is reliant on individual, groups and organisations all making an informed decisions to contribute to safety. It shouldn't be down to the individual PIC/ATC.









Lead Balloon 2nd Apr 2022 07:47

How does an ADS-B receiver help to 'detect' old mate in his Jizzler 700 with no transponder at 1,000' in the vicinity of Ballina?

sunnySA 2nd Apr 2022 08:20


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11209470)
How does an ADS-B receiver help to 'detect' old mate in his Jizzler 700 with no transponder at 1,000' in the vicinity of Ballina?

It doesn't. Options would be primary radar or Mark I eyeball from the Control Tower or via remote tower camera technology.


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